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SP game breaking for new players. Please take your time to read this CCP.

First post First post
Author
Goran Konjich
Krompany
#621 - 2013-06-05 08:17:05 UTC
Just sayin' ... new players "have" to understand that this is game with not small steps to progress. Actually mini steps.

If they do not comprehend in the first plex period, 1 or 3 respectively then this is not clearly game for that individual.

Simple but difficult to comprehend in some way.

I'm a diplomat. Sometimes i throw 425mm wide briefcases at enemy. Such is EVE.

Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#622 - 2013-06-05 12:54:18 UTC
Beginning the fourth month of the OP's absence from this thread (over 2 months absent from the forums at all), and people are still replying directly to him. This is actually becoming sort of impressive.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#623 - 2013-06-05 14:49:22 UTC
Zor'katar wrote:
Beginning the fourth month of the OP's absence from this thread (over 2 months absent from the forums at all), and people are still replying directly to him. This is actually becoming sort of impressive.

Indeed.

This is the thread that never ends. Yes it goes on and on my friends. Some people, started posting in it not knowing what it was, and they keep on posting in it forever just because... This is the thread that never ends.....
Moredrehl Dakaan
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#624 - 2013-06-05 17:36:46 UTC
OP is long gone ... but felt I needed to post as a new player myself

This is my third attempt @ Eve

The first two times, like the OP, I got frustrated with the perceived "sp wall" and as well as poor choices as to what to do in the game. The fact that I was heavily invested in other MMO's at the time made it easy to walk away from Eve.

This time around ...

I am not involved in any other MMO's

I have reassessed the "SP wall" and can rationally view it no differently than starting as a new subscriber/player in any other established MMO. For example, I never played Age of Conan. I wouldn't expect to be doing end game content in AoC as a brand new player within my first 2-3 months of that game ... and I shouldn't be expecting any differently in Eve.

I have firmly grounded my expectations, that for the first 6 months to perhaps even a year ... that my time spent in Eve will be no different than the time spent leveling a new character in any other MMO. The fact that Eve is a sandbox I think fools many players, that lack of direction (ie quest hubs etc of Theme Park MMOs) leaves them feeling they should be able to jump into a capital ship their first week and be pew pewing people.

Instead, they should always keep in mind that to compare themselves as a brand new player to a capsuler with 50-100mil SP is folly. It should be no different than comparing a level 1 toon in WoW to a level 90 End Game raider who has played religiously since launch. The SP's earned over time are no different than a combination of your level and gear in any other MMO.

This time around, I've come to the realization that my enjoyment of Eve will be based on the goals I set for myself rather than the envy I may have of other players.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#625 - 2013-06-06 04:53:30 UTC
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
It is a great aspect you are right there.
But it has been grocely expanded.

Out of 5 people in my experience 4 quit.
That's a really bad number. I love this game but few people are going to drop big $ to buy a pilot in the bazaar.

This has to be the biggest issue in the game right now.
If dealt with the game could MASSIVELY expand... Once more if you misread MASSIVELY expand.


Training time is an issue, as well as if you do train too much, it costs a mint every time you're podded.

So folks just raise specialty alts instead. Next thing you know, you have a farm of narrowly trained alts.

It's a mess, as it doesn't reward character progression. It rewards making more alts to specialize, then quit their training before it's too expensive to even play.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Haulie Berry
#626 - 2013-06-06 05:43:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Ace Uoweme wrote:

Training time is an issue, as well as if you do train too much, it costs a mint every time you're podded.

So folks just raise specialty alts instead. Next thing you know, you have a farm of narrowly trained alts.

It's a mess, as it doesn't reward character progression. It rewards making more alts to specialize, then quit their training before it's too expensive to even play.



You spend a lot of time speaking authoritatively about things that you don't understand very well.

I have a small farm of "narrowly trained alts" and that has ****-all to do with either training time or medclone costs (and really, I don't care how many SPs you have, if your medclone is a major expense to you, you're utterly inept). It revolves more around logistics and basic capacity than anything else.

Logistically, I'm not about to keep my combat pilot in the same region as my POS to plug in jobs around the clock. That would be silly. I'm not going to fly him to Jita every time I need to move some merchandise, either.

Capacity-wise, a given character is limited to, at most, 11 lab slots and 11 manufacturing slots. This is a fraction of what I actually need for an efficient operation. This has nothing to do with training time, it's a hard limitation.

Same goes for PI, market slots, etc.


TL;DR version: You should spend less time whining and more time actually learning about the game so you can avoid making so many abundantly false shitposts.
General Sadistis
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#627 - 2013-06-06 06:04:59 UTC
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
To get the core skills to an OK-ish level takes about 1.5 years.
That's like STANDARD level certs.

Also "subs are at an all time high".
You mean everyone has like 1-5 alts.
Speak to some miners and find out how many alts they have...

I would estimate 30-50% of subs are unique players.
Also the whole reason why people have alts is to train different skill paths.
This is the only game I have ever come across that people have this many alts.
I mean CCP promotes it. "start your sidekick".

Also you aren't getting the jest of this post.
I only had three real questions in my post. You answered non of them.
I just assume you are really young and can't understand or fathom discussions.
Thanx for the free bump though :D


"Also the whole reason why people have alts is to train different skill paths."
Not quite, I and MANY friends have alts for the effectiveness of them. cyno alts, scouting alts, plus its nice when you can roll out half your fleets logi with one person.

"This is the only game I have ever come across that people have this many alts."
its the only game I can think of where you can get an actual advantage from having alts. You can train different things at different times and do things more efficiently.
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#628 - 2013-06-06 09:20:13 UTC
General Sadistis wrote:
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
To get the core skills to an OK-ish level takes about 1.5 years.
That's like STANDARD level certs.

Also "subs are at an all time high".
You mean everyone has like 1-5 alts.
Speak to some miners and find out how many alts they have...

I would estimate 30-50% of subs are unique players.
Also the whole reason why people have alts is to train different skill paths.
This is the only game I have ever come across that people have this many alts.
I mean CCP promotes it. "start your sidekick".

Also you aren't getting the jest of this post.
I only had three real questions in my post. You answered non of them.
I just assume you are really young and can't understand or fathom discussions.
Thanx for the free bump though :D


"Also the whole reason why people have alts is to train different skill paths."
Not quite, I and MANY friends have alts for the effectiveness of them. cyno alts, scouting alts, plus its nice when you can roll out half your fleets logi with one person.

"This is the only game I have ever come across that people have this many alts."
its the only game I can think of where you can get an actual advantage from having alts. You can train different things at different times and do things more efficiently.


This game is far from unique in the fact that people have alt accounts for different things..

I have 6 accounts on Dofus still simply because it was easier to run dungeons with my own team rather than rely on others who might screw up the run. It also got me a nice set of different skills to do it.

Also you could only learn 3 professions on a character so with 6 I could max all of them out and not have to find someone in game to make something for me.

No matter which mmo you play you'll see the same similarities in every game.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#629 - 2013-06-06 10:19:27 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
You spend a lot of time speaking authoritatively about things that you don't understand very well.


I speak very clearly, thank you for noticing. It sure brings out the hypocrits as well.

Haulie Berry wrote:
I have a small farm of "narrowly trained alts" and that has ****-all to do with either training time or medclone costs (and really, I don't care how many SPs you have, if your medclone is a major expense to you, you're utterly inept). It revolves more around logistics and basic capacity than anything else.


It revolves around the issue if you do have plenty of SP invested in a toon, you're not going to use that character too often, as it does get a tad expensive if podded. Well, too those who aren't "whales" or living on some blue doughnut payout, ya know?

Which is why folks make an army of alts that specialize. Get podded it's cheap to replace...bonus if there's no implants (because not everyone can get them replaced cheaply, right?).

Your logistics doesn't change that fact.

P.S. - Oh, and have a nice day. Big smile

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Haulie Berry
#630 - 2013-06-06 16:09:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Ace Uoweme wrote:


It revolves around the issue if you do have plenty of SP invested in a toon, you're not going to use that character too often, as it does get a tad expensive if podded. Well, too those who aren't "whales" or living on some blue doughnut payout, ya know?



Yeah... this is a complete fabrication, now. There are no (or very, very few) characters going unused because it's just too expensive to pay the medclone costs. They're just not THAT expensive. At 106 million SPs, mine are on the expensive end of the spectrum at 21 million. I PvP with two +4s plugged in, bringing my total podding expense to about 60 million. I don't really consider myself among the spacerich, and this is entirely affordable.

Most alts tend to be cyno alts, trade alts, manufacturing alts, supercap holding alts, etc. I don't think I've ever heard of an, "I just can't afford to PvP on my main," alt. I'm sure there are a handful of excessively risk-averse numpties that do it, but your characterization of it as being so common that it's effectively THE reason people make alts makes you little more than a garden variety liar.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#631 - 2013-06-06 16:24:11 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:


It revolves around the issue if you do have plenty of SP invested in a toon, you're not going to use that character too often, as it does get a tad expensive if podded. Well, too those who aren't "whales" or living on some blue doughnut payout, ya know?



Yeah... this is a complete fabrication, now. There are no characters going unused because it's just too expensive to pay the medclone costs. They're just not THAT expensive. At 106 million SPs, mine are on the expensive end of the spectrum at 21 million. I PvP with two +4s plugged in, bringing my total podding expense to about 60 million. I don't really consider myself among the spacerich, and this is entirely affordable.

Maybe try an argument that involves lying less? What?


I could have wrote this about myself...

I'm not space rich, and don't plex for isk.

Clone costs do NOT limit my game play. I too have the same clone grade as Haulie (which cost 30m before this week) and fly with two +4 implants, and I regularly take risky engagements I'm not favored to win, in nullsec, in/around bubbles. In an average month I lose a pod a week, and that's affordable (although sometimes I have to take an isk-earning vacation).

Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#632 - 2013-06-06 16:42:21 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Clone costs do NOT limit my game play. I too have the same clone grade as Haulie (which cost 30m before this week) and fly with two +4 implants,


Which new player is going to have 30mil ISK?

Don't know about you, but even if I did rat in null, or was into moon goo, 30mil ISK is still a lot. To you it may not be, but get podded 2x, and that's nearly 1/5 of a PLEX. Ugh

Can you see the issue now -- 1/5 of a PLEX getting podded just twice?Ugh

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#633 - 2013-06-06 16:55:52 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Clone costs do NOT limit my game play. I too have the same clone grade as Haulie (which cost 30m before this week) and fly with two +4 implants,


Which new player is going to have 30mil ISK?

Don't know about you, but even if I did rat in null, or was into moon goo, 30mil ISK is still a lot. To you it may not be, but get podded 2x, and that's nearly 1/5 of a PLEX. Ugh

Can you see the issue now -- 1/5 of a PLEX getting podded just twice?Ugh


A new player doesn't have a 30m isk clone... (which is now 21m btw). Can they afford to play in 2x +4's? Probably not initially, but so what. They can afford +1's and +2's while they are learning, and that's completely reasonable!

I had < 100m isk when I first started PvP'ing, couldn't fly a BS, and had someone give me the BC I used to run missions with. At that time, when I first started PvPing, I would go out in +1's & +2's (cause those were cheap), PvP'ing in cheap fit frigates which cost about <1m isk per frigate (although its about 2m isk given today's prices) designed to gank interceptors. I made my first 100m isk by looting and salvage those ships.

Haulie Berry
#634 - 2013-06-06 16:56:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Clone costs do NOT limit my game play. I too have the same clone grade as Haulie (which cost 30m before this week) and fly with two +4 implants,


Which new player is going to have 30mil ISK?


....which new player is going to need 30 mil Isk (21, now) to cover an up-to-120m SP clone? Seriously starting to suspect you are a Tom Gerard alt.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#635 - 2013-06-06 17:35:23 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Clone costs do NOT limit my game play. I too have the same clone grade as Haulie (which cost 30m before this week) and fly with two +4 implants,


Which new player is going to have 30mil ISK?


....which new player is going to need 30 mil Isk (21, now) to cover an up-to-120m SP clone? Seriously starting to suspect you are a Tom Gerard alt.


He's a themeparker that crashlanded in EvE Online. he's clueless about anything to do with sandbox mmo-rpg games.

The Tears Must Flow

Haulie Berry
#636 - 2013-06-06 20:00:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Also, this:

Quote:
Don't know about you, but even if I did rat in null, or was into moon goo, 30mil ISK is still a lot. To you it may not be, but get podded 2x, and that's nearly 1/5 of a PLEX.


...rather nicely underscores what I suggested earlier about your general level of knowledge about the game.

I don't rat in null, and I don't mine moon goo, and somehow, my clone costs are still inconsequential to me. How can this be?!? Roll

Moon mining is good organizational income. Ratting in null is far from top tier. Neither make good examples for the point you were trying to make.

I expect you've never actually participated in "high level" Eve content, because you keep making arguments premised on fabrications. It's pretty obvious that you spend a lot of time reading the forum, and you've cobbled together this imagined alternate Eve universe from bits and pieces that you've gleaned, but you've done so preferentially, and completely ignore just about any information that doesn't fit into your rather dystopian personal rendition of the game. Lol

Your reasoning for why people typically use alts, for instance, is objectively wrong. You seem to have taken two different data points...

1. Lots of people have lots of alts.
and
2. Some people complain about medclone costs being too high.

...and fallaciously cobbled these two typically-unrelated matters into a causal relationship, which you've then used as the basis for a number of decidedly false statements, e.g.:

Quote:
...if you do have plenty of SP invested in a toon, you're not going to use that character too often, as it does get a tad expensive if podded. Well, too those who aren't "whales" or living on some blue doughnut payout, ya know?


The scenario you're describing here just doesn't happen. It's a fiction. A high-SP character is not an antique car that you only take out for the occasional low-velocity drive on an idyllic summer day. Most players, by the time they get to a point where their clone cost is even marginally noteworthy, have also gained a good deal of experience in earning ISK. I explained to you what people actually mostly use alts for and instead of actually responding to that, you just doubled down, reiterating the same work of fiction, as if repetition would somehow magically render it true. Roll
TheFace Asano
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#637 - 2013-06-06 22:01:52 UTC
Hefty TheFirst wrote:
Am I speaking the wrong language?
This is a serious discussion sidetracked by trolls.

So all I am asking is what is being done about this huge problem EVE faces?
Who can I talk to about this to make it apparent?
This game is truly great but how does any new player have a chance at experiencing that greatness?

Three simple questions.
Zero answers... Will Hefty prevail in finding the answers on the broken internet!?
Find out on the next post. /commence epic outro!


Most of the answers are pretty spot on. You can be in an effective t2 frigate pretty quick. You don't need most skills past level 4 to be effective. Only train Level 5's for those that you need to get a specific module or a specific ship. I trained Caldari BS V because I run in a Caldari BS all the time. That was 27 ish days. I couldv'e trained a ton of skills to level 3 in that timeframe. Once you start training from level 3-5, especially 4-5 your time to gain ratio is really high.

By the way the certificate skills are not all that great at giving you an actual idea of what you need. Find out what modules you need to run and get the minimum to run Tech 2 variants.

I was soloing level 4's in a couple months on this toon, missile boats are crazy easy to get into fast.

I have tried to bring friends into this game as well. It really appeals only to a niche audience. It is not for everyone, and most people don't understand the mechanics well enough and quite. Nothing really beats the adrenaline rush you can get during pvp, especially if your solo. I tried it a couple times on this toon recently and got owned. It was still fun. My other toon has done some roams in low sec. Pretty fun as well. The game is mostly about the chase. Once you engage even the slightest error will allow you victory or gain you a loss. I personally enjoy null sec anom ratting, I do it on my second monitor between activities on other games on my main screen.
GimmieCash
Edcorp Industries
#638 - 2013-06-07 12:17:08 UTC
long training time is a good thing. this isnt wow where you can be the best at everything in less than 3 months. the long training seperates the real players from the nubs who wont learn about the game and quit after 3 months. ive been playing this game for quite a long time and im still learning new things about it. i love this game and id say never cut down the training time.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#639 - 2013-06-07 13:17:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Chi'Nane T'Kal
GimmieCash wrote:
long training time is a good thing. this isnt wow where you can be the best at everything in less than 3 months. the long training seperates the real players from the nubs who wont learn about the game and quit after 3 months. ive been playing this game for quite a long time and im still learning new things about it. i love this game and id say never cut down the training time.


While this is true (always learning things), the system also elevates the mediocre player, who simply happened to start the game earlier, over the good player who found the game later - to an extend that the game loses appeal to a lot of decent players.

Your comment about nubs is quite untrue. Just take a look at some killboards or spend a millisecond in the great hubs' chat and you realize there are scores of morons around and a lot of them are not new players.

Quite to the contrary, the SP system as currently implemented promotes noobism, as after a few years of patience, the clueless veteran will be indistinguishable from a new mediocre player, as long as he is capable of following very few very basic rules.

At the same time, being clueless, he will not ever have been subject to the frustration inherent in not being able to use an optimal skill plan, since he has no idea what that is.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#640 - 2013-06-07 18:18:16 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
GimmieCash wrote:
long training time is a good thing. this isnt wow where you can be the best at everything in less than 3 months. the long training seperates the real players from the nubs who wont learn about the game and quit after 3 months. ive been playing this game for quite a long time and im still learning new things about it. i love this game and id say never cut down the training time.


While this is true (always learning things), the system also elevates the mediocre player, who simply happened to start the game earlier, over the good player who found the game later - to an extend that the game loses appeal to a lot of decent players.

Your comment about nubs is quite untrue. Just take a look at some killboards or spend a millisecond in the great hubs' chat and you realize there are scores of morons around and a lot of them are not new players.

Quite to the contrary, the SP system as currently implemented promotes noobism, as after a few years of patience, the clueless veteran will be indistinguishable from a new mediocre player, as long as he is capable of following very few very basic rules.

At the same time, being clueless, he will not ever have been subject to the frustration inherent in not being able to use an optimal skill plan, since he has no idea what that is.


I don't understand the point of your post:

Why do we need to distinguish between a "clueless vet" and a mediocre Noob? A smart player can defeat either one, regardless of SP!

The major counter-point of this thread is that: A low-sp character can kill an older player, which is a major improvement over other MMO's (where a low level character can't do jack to a high level character). Sure, they may not be able to win the mirror match, but EvE PvP rarely centers around mirror matches. A "decent player" should find this very appealing, not the contrary!

Now, who does this "lose appeal to"? The Power Gamer!!!

A power gamer will probably be frustrated because they can't fit the "absolute best" with "perfect skills" quickly, but who cares about them. These are the players that EXPECT their perfectly-skilled BS to take on 10 newbs in dessies and live, and that's simply NOT how EvE functions! Frankly, I don't want CCP to cater to this mentality!

I realize some highly-OCD players probably get frustrated too, but if started catering to their whims, every ship would have to be symmetrical, every prop mod would have to go in midslot #1, and you'd have to click three times to target an object!