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Give the harbinger a 3rd bonus.

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androch
LitlCorp
#101 - 2013-03-05 18:23:19 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:
A capacitor use bonus should not count as a "bonus" when minmatar ships get that for free. I am not sure why CCP has to make it so that a ship can only have two bonuses, it seems rather silly. Maybe something simple like a tracking bonus or maybe even a really weird bonus like to a type of ewar?


The drake gets a bonus to resistances and a dps bonus, but do its guns use less cap than a harbinger? Yea, good bonus. It's not like lasers give a really big advantage to counter using all that cap.

Why is it an arbitrary rule that a t1 ship can only have two bonuses? Especially when not all bonuses are created equal.

Lasers natural range doesn't really help much if ever. Every role that you can put a harbinger in other ships do better. The harbinger can't do anything but tank and shoot meh dps guns at 20km while it's max speed is meh.

I don't think removing the cap bonus is a good idea because that will mean the ultimate counter to a harbinger is a medium neut or two. Without the cap reduction bonus the harbingers guns would use more cap than a 10mn micro warp drive. I do not think lasers should have their cap use reduced either because it makes them interesting.

This is not a lasers vs hybrids and projectiles thread, this is a thread to look at the traits the harbinger lacks in thread.



Imagine for a second if the brutix had it's bonuses replaced with the harbingers and its fitting changed to accommodate lasers and got to keep its repair bonus. Would the brutix be OP? No. This is because it would be nearly the same ship, but with less dps, being less cap stable, and having longer range.



does ted ever make any topics that arent bitchy, whiny, and mildly troll posts?
Kerdrak
Querry Moon
#102 - 2013-03-05 19:14:05 UTC
EFT warrior FTW:

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M 60 DPS, 25 DPS at 12km
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 32 DPS, 15 DPS at 12km

Only problem is that fitting the laser needs like 50% more pg and cpu, so really is like autocannons have a built in bonus to fitting requirementsLol since minmatar ships DON'T have 50% less cpu/pg.
Bizheep
Advanced Technology
#103 - 2013-03-05 19:52:10 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:
Bizheep wrote:

the weakest dps of all turrets?
falloff mechanics?
longest reload of all turrets?


That's why everyone put ACs on any ship with no weapon bonuses (or only a cap bonus) when they want to fit a turret.

People fit AC on their ship when they don't care about their weapon. And you cannot avoid a weapon taking this place. If AC have this place, it's because of easy fitting and no cap use, which make them the most basic weapon you can find. There will always be an easiest weapon to fit, and there will always be a lowest cap cost weapon. But on unbonused hull, AC are worse than almost anything else : even dual150mm railguns have the same dps at 4km than 220mm AC, and Quad Light Beam Laser have more dps at all range and almost the same tracking. So there it is : AC only have their low fitting cost and no cap use, because the second you want something more than the cheapest garbage, you're better with a real weapon, but that come with a cost.


this
Sinigr Shadowsong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2013-03-05 20:17:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Sinigr Shadowsong
Kerdrak wrote:
EFT warrior FTW:

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M 60 DPS, 25 DPS at 12km
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 32 DPS, 15 DPS at 12km

Only problem is that fitting the laser needs like 50% more pg and cpu, so really is like autocannons have a built in bonus to fitting requirementsLol since minmatar ships DON'T have 50% less cpu/pg.


Actually minmatar ships have a tons of free PG because of "But artillery is bonused too!". Therefore we have

1) Lowest fittings requirements
+
2) Tons of free PG

Bouh Revetoile wrote:
But on unbonused hull, AC are worse than almost anything else : even dual150mm railguns have the same dps at 4km than 220mm AC, and Quad Light Beam Laser have more dps at all range and almost the same tracking.


That's a blatant lie. 220mm AC does about 30-40% more dps than 150mm Railgun even at 4km without any modules (and superior tracking). Also 220mm AC have 50% more Tracking speed than Quad Light Beam Laser. Who would ever call 50% difference "almost the same"? What winmatar-lovers tend to ignore is that AC gets double benefits from TE/TC.

I prefer to use Winmatar ships because of sheer superiority with next to no drawbacks.
Kerdrak
Querry Moon
#105 - 2013-03-05 21:24:41 UTC
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:

Actually minmatar ships have a tons of free PG because of "But artillery is bonused too!". Therefore we have

1) Lowest fittings requirements
+
2) Tons of free PG


I think that's the whole problem, autocannons and artilleries are not balanced together and doesn't represent the minmatar philosophy. While autocannons are ok, being turrets with low fitting requirements and low dps but very flexible in ammo, artilleries have high fitting requirements and a high damage output (alpha, making them very popular in fleets or ganking,due to their ability to laugh at active tanking).
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#106 - 2013-03-05 22:35:29 UTC
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:
That's a blatant lie. 220mm AC does about 30-40% more dps than 150mm Railgun even at 4km without any modules (and superior tracking). Also 220mm AC have 50% more Tracking speed than Quad Light Beam Laser. Who would ever call 50% difference "almost the same"? What winmatar-lovers tend to ignore is that AC gets double benefits from TE/TC.

Nope.

Tested on a Myrmidon (no weapon damage bonus, no weapon modules, all 5) :
Quad Light Beam Laser II w/ Gleam M : 35,14 dps @ 3+1,25 km ; 0,1266 rad/s
IN Multifreq : 34,64 dps @ 6+1,25 km ; 0,1013 rad/s
Dual 150mm Railgun II w/ Javelin M : 31,22 dps @ 4,5+7,5 km ; 0,0689 rad/s
CN Antimat : 30,77 dps @ 9+7,5 km ; 0,0551 rad/s
220mm Vulcan Auto Cannon II w/ RFEMP : 35,60 dps @ 1,35+11 km ; 0,1518 rad/s
28,48 dps @ ~7km
Hail : 39,73 dps @ 1,35+8,25 km ; 0,1063 rad/s
31,78 dps @ 5km
Barrage : 28,38 dps @ 2,7+16,5 km ; 0,1139 rad/s

Considering other ammo for LR weapons, barrage don't compete. 220mm/Hail is indeed better than QLBL/Gleam, but have less tracking (lol), and that's only up to 5km. D150mm railgun is better at 6km and above. I grant you that D150mm tracking is crappy. With RFEMP (standard ammo loaded in AC versus 1s length swap with beam), QLBL is better than 220mm AC.

The chery on the cake ? 220mm AC use more PG than D150mm or QLBL...

As I said, primitive weapon make very good default weapon and obvious choice when this is the last thing you need to put on your ship.

Fun fact : QLBL have almost the exact same base tracking than Heavy Pulse Laser, and more with Gleam ; and D150mm rail with javelin have almost the same tracking than Heavy Pulse with Conflag ; though Heavy Pulse hit farther than both of these weapons (and do more damage). That actually give some insight in fact.
Sentinel zx
#107 - 2013-03-05 23:05:48 UTC
i just had an idea making beams, rails and arties firing end of the firing cycle and adding a charge effect for them
Alara IonStorm
#108 - 2013-03-05 23:41:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Kerdrak wrote:

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M 60 DPS, 25 DPS at 12km
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 32 DPS, 15 DPS at 12km

60 DPS? It does more DPS then a L Megapulse Laser II...
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2013-03-06 03:35:34 UTC
The advantages of lazers are far, far outweighed by it's cap disadvantage

every time someone mentions blasters, first thing that is said is monster DPS
every time someone mentions arties, first thing said is monster alpha
every time someone mentions lazers, first thing said is **** capacitor

im all for keeping it unique but it needs a slight buff to balance out it's capacitor disadvantage. slight buff to tracking maybe?
Mirel Dystoph
Perkone
Caldari State
#110 - 2013-03-06 04:10:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mirel Dystoph
Kerdrak wrote:
EFT warrior FTW:

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M 60 DPS, 25 DPS at 12km
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 32 DPS, 15 DPS at 12km

Only problem is that fitting the laser needs like 50% more pg and cpu, so really is like autocannons have a built in bonus to fitting requirementsLol since minmatar ships DON'T have 50% less cpu/pg.

get your numbers right...


HPL II, MF M: 36 DPS in optimal, 17 dps at 12km
425 AC, EMP M: 32 DPS in optimal, 16 dps at 12km

both used on a unbonused hull shooting at a ship with 0 velocity / transversal because we're comparing dps here.


Here's is a pretty graph in EFT:
http://i.imgur.com/oDERMPd.png



edit: and btw. while autocannons not only have less cpu / pg requirements, they also track better and use less cap, but their damage projection isn't that great in optimal tbh

"Nothing essential happens in the absence of noise." 
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#111 - 2013-03-06 05:38:14 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:
That's a blatant lie. 220mm AC does about 30-40% more dps than 150mm Railgun even at 4km without any modules (and superior tracking). Also 220mm AC have 50% more Tracking speed than Quad Light Beam Laser. Who would ever call 50% difference "almost the same"? What winmatar-lovers tend to ignore is that AC gets double benefits from TE/TC.

Nope.

Tested on a Myrmidon (no weapon damage bonus, no weapon modules, all 5) :
Quad Light Beam Laser II w/ Gleam M : 35,14 dps @ 3+1,25 km ; 0,1266 rad/s
IN Multifreq : 34,64 dps @ 6+1,25 km ; 0,1013 rad/s
Dual 150mm Railgun II w/ Javelin M : 31,22 dps @ 4,5+7,5 km ; 0,0689 rad/s
CN Antimat : 30,77 dps @ 9+7,5 km ; 0,0551 rad/s
220mm Vulcan Auto Cannon II w/ RFEMP : 35,60 dps @ 1,35+11 km ; 0,1518 rad/s
28,48 dps @ ~7km
Hail : 39,73 dps @ 1,35+8,25 km ; 0,1063 rad/s
31,78 dps @ 5km
Barrage : 28,38 dps @ 2,7+16,5 km ; 0,1139 rad/s

Considering other ammo for LR weapons, barrage don't compete. 220mm/Hail is indeed better than QLBL/Gleam, but have less tracking (lol), and that's only up to 5km. D150mm railgun is better at 6km and above. I grant you that D150mm tracking is crappy. With RFEMP (standard ammo loaded in AC versus 1s length swap with beam), QLBL is better than 220mm AC.

The chery on the cake ? 220mm AC use more PG than D150mm or QLBL...

As I said, primitive weapon make very good default weapon and obvious choice when this is the last thing you need to put on your ship.

Fun fact : QLBL have almost the exact same base tracking than Heavy Pulse Laser, and more with Gleam ; and D150mm rail with javelin have almost the same tracking than Heavy Pulse with Conflag ; though Heavy Pulse hit farther than both of these weapons (and do more damage). That actually give some insight in fact.

Why are there so many comparisons all of a sudden, between AC's and long rabe weapons?

Surely the point would be to compare long with long and short with short?

Friends
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#112 - 2013-03-06 07:23:26 UTC
Mirel Dystoph wrote:
Kerdrak wrote:
EFT warrior FTW:

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M 60 DPS, 25 DPS at 12km
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M 32 DPS, 15 DPS at 12km

Only problem is that fitting the laser needs like 50% more pg and cpu, so really is like autocannons have a built in bonus to fitting requirementsLol since minmatar ships DON'T have 50% less cpu/pg.

get your numbers right...


HPL II, MF M: 36 DPS in optimal, 17 dps at 12km
425 AC, EMP M: 32 DPS in optimal, 16 dps at 12km

both used on a unbonused hull shooting at a ship with 0 velocity / transversal because we're comparing dps here.


Here's is a pretty graph in EFT:
http://i.imgur.com/oDERMPd.png



edit: and btw. while autocannons not only have less cpu / pg requirements, they also track better and use less cap, but their damage projection isn't that great in optimal tbh


That's an interesting graph. Until 12km, assuming your target is stupid enough to sit still, lasers are superior to AC's using short range ammo.

Though I do still think that it is important to remember that those AC's are easier to fit, don't munch cap, have selectable damage type, and have better tracking.

But then it's also important to point out that Lasers let you switch instantly to Scorch if you get kited.

Oh, and Scorch. I'm not sure if I remember mentioning Scorch.
Boris Amarr
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#113 - 2013-03-06 07:31:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Boris Amarr
For Punisher and Maller bonus to Medium Energy Turret capacitor use was changed to bonus to all Armor Resistances. Why did you keep bonus to Medium Energy Turret capacitor use for Harbinger??? Where is logic?
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#114 - 2013-03-06 07:48:17 UTC
Boris Amarr wrote:
For Punisher and Maller bonus to Medium Energy Turret capacitor use was changed to bonus to all Armor Resistances. Why did you keep bonus to Medium Energy Turret capacitor use for Harbinger??? Where is logic?

I think the Harbinger was supposed to be a ship which blurred the line between Attack and Combat ship roles, where they took the damage bonus from the Combat line, giving it the damage to be competitive with both, while taking the capacitor bonus from the Attack line, giving it an easier time with cap and allowing it to expend more on mobility, and such. But this didn't make it an Attack ship due to a mid-range base EHP as well as mid-range damage, making it a "middle of the line" ship. Unfortunately I don't see it filling much of a role there, seeing as it's not fast enough to kite, and it's not tanky enough (or doesn't have the tracking) to brawl typically.

Yes, there are fits where you load the Harbinger down with tank mods making it a pseudo-combat BC, and there are fits where you bastardize the Amarr line and load it up with shields and kite. But it's more of a middle-ground ship when doing either of those things. Though I would have to attribute most of the successes of the Harbinger to Scorch, personally, rather than the ship itself.
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#115 - 2013-03-06 09:32:36 UTC
Commander Ted wrote:
A capacitor use bonus should not count as a "bonus" when minmatar ships get that for free.



No, no they don't. Amarr ships have BETTER capacitor than minmatar ships mostly, when you consider running weapons, propulsion mods, tackle, some sort of tank. This is not only through a capacitor bonus, but also dramatically larger base cap amounts and faster regen. Not only are many minmatar ships short on capacitor (Vagabond, Cynabal, Sleipnir) for sustained engagements where their amarrian counterparts aren't, but Amarrian ships have many advantages to their weapons, that projectiles do not, including higher tracking, DRAMATICALLY better damage projection, longer range, higher dps, super fast reloading/crystal swapping.

So no, I strongly disagree. The capacitor bonus IS a very good bonus.
Kerdrak
Querry Moon
#116 - 2013-03-06 09:51:07 UTC
Mirel Dystoph wrote:

get your numbers right...


HPL II, MF M: 36 DPS in optimal, 17 dps at 12km
425 AC, EMP M: 32 DPS in optimal, 16 dps at 12km

both used on a unbonused hull shooting at a ship with 0 velocity / transversal because we're comparing dps here.


Here's is a pretty graph in EFT:
http://i.imgur.com/oDERMPd.png



edit: and btw. while autocannons not only have less cpu / pg requirements, they also track better and use less cap, but their damage projection isn't that great in optimal tbh


You are totally right, I messed it up as didn't realize the ship I took had heatsinks.

36 vs 32 dps is totally unbalanced having such fitting requirements and cap usage.

Thanks for fixing my numbers.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#117 - 2013-03-06 09:57:40 UTC
Arronicus wrote:
Commander Ted wrote:
A capacitor use bonus should not count as a "bonus" when minmatar ships get that for free.



No, no they don't. Amarr ships have BETTER capacitor than minmatar ships mostly, when you consider running weapons, propulsion mods, tackle, some sort of tank. This is not only through a capacitor bonus, but also dramatically larger base cap amounts and faster regen. Not only are many minmatar ships short on capacitor (Vagabond, Cynabal, Sleipnir) for sustained engagements where their amarrian counterparts aren't, but Amarrian ships have many advantages to their weapons, that projectiles do not, including higher tracking, DRAMATICALLY better damage projection, longer range, higher dps, super fast reloading/crystal swapping.

So no, I strongly disagree. The capacitor bonus IS a very good bonus.


Until you fire the guns...

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#118 - 2013-03-06 11:50:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Kerdrak wrote:
Mirel Dystoph wrote:

get your numbers right...


HPL II, MF M: 36 DPS in optimal, 17 dps at 12km
425 AC, EMP M: 32 DPS in optimal, 16 dps at 12km

both used on a unbonused hull shooting at a ship with 0 velocity / transversal because we're comparing dps here.


Here's is a pretty graph in EFT:
http://i.imgur.com/oDERMPd.png



edit: and btw. while autocannons not only have less cpu / pg requirements, they also track better and use less cap, but their damage projection isn't that great in optimal tbh


You are totally right, I messed it up as didn't realize the ship I took had heatsinks.

36 vs 32 dps is totally unbalanced having such fitting requirements and cap usage.

Thanks for fixing my numbers.


This makes me laugh...

some more numbers

425mm AC (barrage) 3km optimal, 29.8 dps in 3km optimal, 13 dps at max point range
against
HPL (scorch) 22.5km optimal, 33.1 dps in optimal, 31.5 dps at max point range

max point range is 24km for me. Also, once you actually got the supportskills for your cap-intense weapons, they aren't cap-intense anymore Roll
So yeah, if minmatar ships had the same base cap as amarr ships already, I'd prolly fly FMP stabbers.

Also pls show me a vaga/cyna with 480dps at 50km. Cause that is a shieldzealot. AND it's almost capstable with guns+mwd.

Edit: Atleast I should mention that the HPL got around 25% less tracking than the ACs. Which doesn't really matter for a kiter.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#119 - 2013-03-06 11:50:09 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Why are there so many comparisons all of a sudden, between AC's and long rabe weapons?

Surely the point would be to compare long with long and short with short?

The point was to compare AC with the easiest fitting weapon of the other races. In fact, when AC are far easier to fit than arties, that's not the case for hybrid and laser turrets.

The second point was also to desilusion some people believing laser were worse than AC. That's wrong, because even the worse laser turret (the quad light beam laser people don't even consider fitting on their ship) is better than than the second grade AC.

Pushing the comparison with 425mm AC with Focused Medium Pulse Laser and Heavy Ion Blaster (because these weapons have roughly the same fitting requirements, more PG for 425mm and more CPU for the others), you can see that th dps advantage of 425mm AC don't even go beyond 4km, and the tracking are close (0,02 rad/s advantage for 425mm vs FMP). Blasters, for their part, have nothing else than insane dps, but everybody know they have a poor range, and again, FMP start to be better than heavy ion blaster at 4,5km.

Heavy Pulse laser is better than 425mm AC even at point blanc, provided you can track your target. HPL is also better than Heavy Beam laser up to its max range (22,5km) and use less cap.

The best contender to HPL is the Heavy Neutron Blaster, up to 5km.

So, HPL is undoubtebly the best medium weapon between 5km and its max range (22,5km). That's quite a large superiority range IMO, and well deserve some drawbacks. No doubt the cap cost is huge, but that is also the only thing preventing a ship from firing laser forever.

Capacitor bonus allow for sustained and easy use of the weapon (cap bonused HPL use a little more cap only than neutron blaster). And this bonus is not worse than an armor reping bonus for example.

The real question is if the ship need something else, because the objective is to balance the ships, not the bonuses, and because the weapon look more than good.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#120 - 2013-03-06 11:55:40 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Why are there so many comparisons all of a sudden, between AC's and long rabe weapons?

Surely the point would be to compare long with long and short with short?

The point was to compare AC with the easiest fitting weapon of the other races. In fact, when AC are far easier to fit than arties, that's not the case for hybrid and laser turrets.

The second point was also to desilusion some people believing laser were worse than AC. That's wrong, because even the worse laser turret (the quad light beam laser people don't even consider fitting on their ship) is better than than the second grade AC.

Pushing the comparison with 425mm AC with Focused Medium Pulse Laser and Heavy Ion Blaster (because these weapons have roughly the same fitting requirements, more PG for 425mm and more CPU for the others), you can see that th dps advantage of 425mm AC don't even go beyond 4km, and the tracking are close (0,02 rad/s advantage for 425mm vs FMP). Blasters, for their part, have nothing else than insane dps, but everybody know they have a poor range, and again, FMP start to be better than heavy ion blaster at 4,5km.

Heavy Pulse laser is better than 425mm AC even at point blanc, provided you can track your target. HPL is also better than Heavy Beam laser up to its max range (22,5km) and use less cap.

The best contender to HPL is the Heavy Neutron Blaster, up to 5km.

So, HPL is undoubtebly the best medium weapon between 5km and its max range (22,5km). That's quite a large superiority range IMO, and well deserve some drawbacks. No doubt the cap cost is huge, but that is also the only thing preventing a ship from firing laser forever.

Capacitor bonus allow for sustained and easy use of the weapon (cap bonused HPL use a little more cap only than neutron blaster). And this bonus is not worse than an armor reping bonus for example.

The real question is if the ship need something else, because the objective is to balance the ships, not the bonuses, and because the weapon look more than good.


This is a very good summary. Just instaswap of crystals, the wonderful range-coverage between conflag, navy/standard for tracking and scorch is awesome.