These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Missions & Complexes

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Exploration, Risk vs. Reward, T3 ships and DED 4/10s
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#41 - 2013-03-03 08:22:55 UTC
DED 4+ should be in losec.

Only possible exception: If they spawn in hi as an escalation from an anomaly (I've heard of DED 5/10s spawning in hisec this way, but it's so vanishingly rare as to be insignificant, especially when you throw in the usual "RNG is R" on the potential rewards).

Aside from that, I think it's fine.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#42 - 2013-03-03 08:52:33 UTC
Orlacc wrote:
We are slowly heading down a path where "everyone is a winner." Like the Special Olympics.

Best idea was having the Overseer only spawn when all other NPCs are dead.


Yes, hisec stuff often looks like special people competing with kids rules. The only problem with this is that the kids and special people are now in the same race.

Picture this start line for a bike race: Kindergarten-age kids on cute, colorful bikes with their training wheels, racing for the first time. Among them are a couple of guys in their late twenties. They ride pro-level carbon fiber bikes with the latest electric shifters, and wear a full compression suit complete with time trial helmets.

These adults don't want to compete with other adults, it's easier for them to beat the kids every time, not because they have more skill, but because they've been subscribed for longer, and that makes them feel like they are winners.


Tauranon wrote:
Oh look you can't use the exploration spaceships for exploration. What a good idea.


Yes you can, you just have to leave the starter zone. And they aren't "exploration spaceships", they are strategic cruisers. And as a ship class in general, they are overpowered, and much more so in hisec.

.
Meghel
SilfMeg Mining and Transportation Co
#43 - 2013-03-03 10:21:48 UTC
Somnorific wrote:
make the signatures NOT static in there result radius. .1%, 1.40% etc
NO cherry picking
ie. more time for t3's to scan sites down
ie. everyone will have to spend time and SP in the astrometrics and similar to perfect and quicken the time it takes to scan sites down.
As intended.


Somnorific has one of the best solutions.

As the OP started with the premise that a Single T3 ship with a Single probe can easily see which sites are 4/10 DED and which site is what, the best solution would be to remove the easy option to see what is what.

This would force any explorer to scan down ALL site, even those pesky Wormholes, Gravimetric Sites and Magnetronic Sites.

So make Signatures not static.
Many problems solved.
Samuel Wess
Doomheim
#44 - 2013-03-03 11:06:33 UTC
I do exploration in Stain NPC 0.0 as a challenge for low rewards.

Example: 9/10 Complex
1st stage in Stain - 10-20m isk reward, escalates 15 Jumps trough hostile area
2nd stage in Stain - 20m isk reward, heavy neuting, no MWD, beeing probed while running it
3rd stage escalating 20 jumps into Delve, station system with over 2k jumps per day
having citadel torps, webs, heavy neuts, requiring +1k dps to break

Total Reward: 70m (80% of the time) - 300m (20% chance) / pilot in 1-2 days and high risk

Even if the station will always drop the loot, it still does not compare with the income from
FW, or missions in highsec.

Walk into the club like "What up? I got a big cockpit!"
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#45 - 2013-03-03 12:12:52 UTC
Skill for a T3 then. Problem solved. Just because someone took the time to skill for a T3, doesn't mean they should be penalized. I did exploration in a Dramiel, Ishkur, Gila, and a Drake for awhile, and I lost some sites because of T3 ships; but I didn't complain. That is the nature of the game and if you want to beat those T3 pilots then you need to step up your game. The fact that hisec exploration is so competitive you will not make that much isk out of it anyway and you are better off doing L4s, Incusrions, or running sites in WHs/losec/nullsec.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#46 - 2013-03-03 12:50:04 UTC
What you don't realize is that being able to fly a T3 is not "stepping up your game", it just means that you are an older player doing kiddie sites when you should be elsewhere doing stuff designed for your age.

.
Makavelia
National Industries
#47 - 2013-03-03 12:55:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Makavelia
As a lot of you said the loot is random and that loot value is subject to player demand. If you simply make high sec bad but low sec better it won' fix much. The t2/t3 players that do roam low sec (and theirs a few) will dominate that space instead yet make even more due to less comp and less market flood.

I'm all for the dynamic loot system but nobody can deny it gets REALY annoying to be an explorer unless you are in the very select part of eve space (the very over crowded part). If you don't have the best ship in that space you will lose site after site to T3 and ishtars etc.

You can say that's ok, but does it take more time to train a T2/t3 than it does to get L5 BC hurricane with the added requirement of better tank skills? (i.e no high t2/3 passive resistence). The isk differance in the ships is obviously large.. but i thought eve was about the skills you have trained, not the amount of isk you splatter on a ship.

If anything, the isk these player pay is right. They are not flying cruisers after all, They are flying something close to bc/battle ships with the very nice bonus of cruiser hull agility that can get access to most gates. Yet still, they have not trained any longer for this advantedge, than i have for my BC and certainly not for BS. The bc/bs is ofc limited to certain sites and they are not worth risking at all for rad/mags. So when did eve become train less, pay more.. and win?.






Getting back to the dynamic loot. Incursions is very static, once you've ran the first with the fleet you get an idea on the isk your going to make for the next few hours. In missions, once you know the mission types you get a good idea of what you can avg blitz. In exploration, It's suppose to go against that grain (ofc.. i like that) but it's clearly to the point where it's far to random or else why do so many only choose to scan within one single band.

My opinion on that is the oversear loot should be baught from NPC for more isk. You should be looking at making some 10 mil for a 4.10 as standard loot before drops (in low sec).

The low sec mag/rads could have a similar thing where a last defending npc ship drops a tag or some important info you can sell to a highsec npc faction. The tag worth maybe 15mil for the hardest low sec sites (becuse they are still usualy worth so much less than combat sites), then lower and lower value tags for the easier ones. This can make running rad/mags worth while, and they should be worth while, they are the most dangerous.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#48 - 2013-03-03 13:09:49 UTC
It only takes about 2-3 months to fly a T3 effectively. Those T3 pilots are not as old as you think, they just skilled what they needed to fly it effectively.
St Mio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2013-03-04 10:11:55 UTC
For those who don’t know how they work:
DSPs don’t let you choose what signatures you find. They let you exclude entire bands of signatures you aren’t interested in*. They reduce the amount of signatures you do not want greatly but not completely. You will still have to scan signatures you do not want!
* Or are prepared to sacrifice not finding.

A lot of people asked me why I made this public and why I didn’t keep it to myself. Personally, I hated having to scan down endless amounts of wormholes and drone sites just to find something worth running, and bloody hell I wouldn’t wish it upon my worst enemy. Imagine if you were trying to run combat missions and all your agent gave you was Rogue Drone Harassment or tried to send you to mine in low-sec? Or if you’ve been in a roaming fleet for an hour looking for some people to fight and the only other players are in shuttles?

If you look at the sig bands (http://www.swiftandbitter.com/eve/dsp/highsec.html) there are only 2 sites really worth running for someone flying a ship bigger than a frigate. These are the DED 3/10 and 4/10. One of them shares their sig strength with approximately 80% of wormholes in high-sec, the other does not. If people could choose to only scan signatures in one band, guess which it would be? There’s pretty much zero reason for the players in T3 ships we’re talking about to scan a signature in the other bands.

If CCP were to nerf DSP (and sig bands), my personal suggestion would be:
· Randomise sig strength
· Move wormholes to their own group (Group: Wormhole at 25%)
· Increase wormhole, grav and ladar (“long life” sites) sig strength greatly **

** Wormholes and gravimetrics stay in space for much longer periods of time than the other signatures, even once players have started using them. IMHO there should be a bigger seperation between them and the other (DED/radar/mag) sites.
St Mio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2013-03-04 10:13:58 UTC
As for high-sec and T3s, I’ve given this a bit more thought (and shortly we shall see, clearly not enough thought).

A newbie starts off in his T1 astrometrics frigate, happily starts scanning, runs some Radars, makes tonnes of ISK for his age, finds a Haunted Yard, learns that Rogue Drones are a waste of time, finds a Blood Hideout, gets excited at his first faction spawn and gets introduced to Tags&Ammo™. Eventually he skills up into a cruiser. Suddenly, because of current gate restrictions, any site his cruiser can get into, a T3 can also get into.

Now some people are saying ban T3s from high-sec, or move all good sites to low-sec. Meanwhile, (other) people are still running L4s and Incursions in high-sec. Now I’m sure there are plenty of people out there who would love nothing more than for anything bigger than an L1 mission or Scout level Incursion site to be moved out of high-sec.

(IMO) Living in high-sec (or anywhere else) should be a valid lifestyle choice for anyone playing EVE. Regardless of their age or ISK or SP. There’s an amazing amount of freedom in game, and if people want to use that freedom to spend the rest of their career in-game doing PVE content in high-sec, it should be their prerogative. The problem here is that for exploration, there is pretty much nothing in between newbie-in-a-frig and T3.

My personal suggestion:
· Change high-sec DED 3/10 and 4/10 to not allow T3 cruisers in
· Add a DED 5/10 to highsec that a) allows T3 cruisers in b) has 4/10 loot table
· Shift high-sec DED 4/10 loot table down a little bit accordingly

You end up giving players flying T3 ships a site that’s more of a match to their ship. Since they don’t have to contend with other players trying to violence their boat, the rewards are damped down a bit. The important thing is that high-sec exploration should be viable whether someone is in a frigate, a T1 cruiser or a Tengu.

As for the alternative of moving DED 4/10 completely to low-sec: the majority of high-sec explorers (I’d wager), are not going to move to low-sec. Period. You can use the juiciest carrot you want, they won’t budge. Use the stick, and they’ll skip low-sec and move straight to the unsub button. They’re no sooner going to move out of high-sec than PVPers are going to take up mining.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#51 - 2013-03-04 10:19:35 UTC
You say that like it's a bad thing :)

The less we have full-time bears decreasing the profits of normal EVE players, the better it is.

.
Makavelia
National Industries
#52 - 2013-03-04 10:22:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Makavelia
St Mio wrote:
As for high-sec and T3s, I’ve given this a bit more thought (and shortly we shall see, clearly not enough thought).

A newbie starts off in his T1 astrometrics frigate, happily starts scanning, runs some Radars, makes tonnes of ISK for his age, finds a Haunted Yard, learns that Rogue Drones are a waste of time, finds a Blood Hideout, gets excited at his first faction spawn and gets introduced to Tags&Ammo™. Eventually he skills up into a cruiser. Suddenly, because of current gate restrictions, any site his cruiser can get into, a T3 can also get into.

Now some people are saying ban T3s from high-sec, or move all good sites to low-sec. Meanwhile, (other) people are still running L4s and Incursions in high-sec. Now I’m sure there are plenty of people out there who would love nothing more than for anything bigger than an L1 mission or Scout level Incursion site to be moved out of high-sec.

(IMO) Living in high-sec (or anywhere else) should be a valid lifestyle choice for anyone playing EVE. Regardless of their age or ISK or SP. There’s an amazing amount of freedom in game, and if people want to use that freedom to spend the rest of their career in-game doing PVE content in high-sec, it should be their prerogative. The problem here is that for exploration, there is pretty much nothing in between newbie-in-a-frig and T3.

My personal suggestion:
· Change high-sec DED 3/10 and 4/10 to not allow T3 cruisers in
· Add a DED 5/10 to highsec that a) allows T3 cruisers in b) has 4/10 loot table
· Shift high-sec DED 4/10 loot table down a little bit accordingly

You end up giving players flying T3 ships a site that’s more of a match to their ship. Since they don’t have to contend with other players trying to violence their boat, the rewards are damped down a bit. The important thing is that high-sec exploration should be viable whether someone is in a frigate, a T1 cruiser or a Tengu.

As for the alternative of moving DED 4/10 completely to low-sec: the majority of high-sec explorers (I’d wager), are not going to move to low-sec. Period. You can use the juiciest carrot you want, they won’t budge. Use the stick, and they’ll skip low-sec and move straight to the unsub button. They’re no sooner going to move out of high-sec than PVPers are going to take up mining.


I'm all for this ''stay in high sec''. But tell me, why should i in a T1 BC be forced out of high sec due to the amount of T3. Im forced to jump a 150-200mil bc into low sec, taking ALL the risks.. and tbh making less per week than a incursion or L4 blitz. No I'm not ''doing it wrong''.. I'm going to the most quite places i can find.. but even those have constant roaming fleets comming through and all the rest of it that comes with low sec. It's not like the BC has the perks of a cruiser hull and cov ops........

Even the small things like making a safe spot is realy risky in a BC. If the system you enter has hostiles and you have no safe it's a real dangerous situation, they know exactly where you warp and you have a cloak delay to go with it. If the system has no station this forces you to warp to a gate, where they can try it all over again.

I don't see why i should be pushed into the most hostile part of eve with a ship close to a brick and make less isk for it.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-03-04 10:55:18 UTC
St Mio wrote:

· Change high-sec DED 3/10 and 4/10 to not allow T3 cruisers in
· Add a DED 5/10 to highsec that a) allows T3 cruisers in b) has 4/10 loot table
· Shift high-sec DED 4/10 loot table down a little bit accordingly


So you basically just want to add more 4/10 site to hi-sec?, and reward player for dual boxing. This means you need to run a T3 cruiser for 5/10 site, an T1&2 cruiser alt to do the 3&4/10 sites.

At least with the current system you don't really get a massive bonus from dual boxing.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Julien Brellier
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2013-03-04 11:34:22 UTC
Oh look, it's another "nerf highsec, move everything worth doing to low or null" thread. Roll
Makavelia
National Industries
#55 - 2013-03-04 11:55:26 UTC
Julien Brellier wrote:
Oh look, it's another "nerf highsec, move everything worth doing to low or null" thread. Roll


Their are more than a few ways to make good isk in high sec.

Exploration least of all should be the one tied to 1 area of space.. listen to yourself.
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#56 - 2013-03-04 12:28:24 UTC
I don't really see much of an issue, but I'll just say a few words about the proposed solutions for this "problem".

1. All ideas from people who view highsec as just a kiddypool/newbie training area can be safely ignored. The premise they start from is **** to begin with, so the conclusions they come from it will be equally worthless.

2. Excluding single ship types from these sites won't fix your percieved problem. It'll just alter the symptoms. Highsec exploration is at it's core a speed race and nothing will change that or should change that. Either accept that and adapt or be the one who goes out of highsec. I can guarantee the amount of competition will drop dramatically and the rewards you get will increase as well. You'll be flying PvE focused ships in areas where everyone else flies PvP ships, but being a noob or veteran won't alter that. Only flying with others will.

3. Anyone suggesting a solution where every signature should be scanned is a masochist. Scanning sites isn't all that fun. Wasting huge amounts of time scanning types of sites you never had any interest in completing is just cruel and inhumane punishment. Having random signal bands for sites is fine as long as the threshold for filtering the site types is low. Meaning it can be made random as what exact site of that type you get, but the type(grav, ladar, combat) should be easy to determine, preferably with wormholes getting their own group. Basicly allow cherry picking of site types, but not exact sites.

4. Forcing people to kill every NPC in combat sites is a bad idea. One major reason I like exploration is, that I can avoid grinding huge piles of NPCs and still make a decent living as a combat pilot. It's also the reason why I dislike most lowsec/null sites even though the pay is better. They're like flying a mission with a better loot drop at the end. They offer better income then highsec sites by a good margin, but are also much more NPC grindy. If anything I'd like to see more lowsec/nullsec sites, that could be done with less tanky/DPS heavy ships and wouldn't be so time intensive to do. Think for example of a 5/10 DED site, that is doable in a frigate in 5 to 15 minutes. It can be hard, but it should offer something besides dozens of battleships to grind through before the next gate can be accessed and shooting a battlestation at the end for 10 minutes for the final loot drop.

Makavelia wrote:
Julien Brellier wrote:
Oh look, it's another "nerf highsec, move everything worth doing to low or null" thread. Roll


Their are more than a few ways to make good isk in high sec.

Exploration least of all should be the one tied to 1 area of space.. listen to yourself.

Is there a reason exploration shouldn't remain one of them? Also exploration isn't tied to 1 area of space. It's available in all areas of space with greatly increased rewards in the more dangerous areas.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#57 - 2013-03-04 12:34:56 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
Anyone suggesting a solution where every signature should be scanned is a masochist. Scanning sites isn't all that fun. Wasting huge amounts of time scanning types of sites you never had any interest in completing is just cruel and inhumane punishment.


The premise they start from is **** to begin with, so the conclusions they come from it will be equally worthless...

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Dautrin Maize
Peirmont Industries
#58 - 2013-03-04 12:56:45 UTC
As far as risk vs. reward goes, I don't really care.

That said, I wish they'd make it so that the first person entering a hi-sec plex gets "rights" to it and can fire on anyone else entering "their" plex. Tired of watching dorks woosh past me to collect my loot while I'm plowing my way through the plex.

When I enter a plex and see yellow wrecks, I do the courteous thing and leave.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#59 - 2013-03-04 13:14:24 UTC
Dautrin Maize wrote:
As far as risk vs. reward goes, I don't really care.

That said, I wish they'd make it so that the first person entering a hi-sec plex gets "rights" to it and can fire on anyone else entering "their" plex. Tired of watching dorks woosh past me to collect my loot while I'm plowing my way through the plex.

When I enter a plex and see yellow wrecks, I do the courteous thing and leave.


Hell no.

I don't take plexes from others, but honestly the possibility of losing the plex to someone that will causes me to play them efficiently, and take risks. EVEs design inherently works better when loot and isk sources are public and capable of supporting contention and denial. I take risks, particularly in places where I only have a cruiser available to get the plexes done before someone steals the plex loot from me, and thats a vital part of the lacking difficulty / differentation between good/bad players etc.
Makavelia
National Industries
#60 - 2013-03-04 13:37:57 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
I don't really see much of an issue, but I'll just say a few words about the proposed solutions for this "problem".

1. All ideas from people who view highsec as just a kiddypool/newbie training area can be safely ignored. The premise they start from is **** to begin with, so the conclusions they come from it will be equally worthless.

2. Excluding single ship types from these sites won't fix your percieved problem. It'll just alter the symptoms. Highsec exploration is at it's core a speed race and nothing will change that or should change that. Either accept that and adapt or be the one who goes out of highsec. I can guarantee the amount of competition will drop dramatically and the rewards you get will increase as well. You'll be flying PvE focused ships in areas where everyone else flies PvP ships, but being a noob or veteran won't alter that. Only flying with others will.

3. Anyone suggesting a solution where every signature should be scanned is a masochist. Scanning sites isn't all that fun. Wasting huge amounts of time scanning types of sites you never had any interest in completing is just cruel and inhumane punishment. Having random signal bands for sites is fine as long as the threshold for filtering the site types is low. Meaning it can be made random as what exact site of that type you get, but the type(grav, ladar, combat) should be easy to determine, preferably with wormholes getting their own group. Basicly allow cherry picking of site types, but not exact sites.

4. Forcing people to kill every NPC in combat sites is a bad idea. One major reason I like exploration is, that I can avoid grinding huge piles of NPCs and still make a decent living as a combat pilot. It's also the reason why I dislike most lowsec/null sites even though the pay is better. They're like flying a mission with a better loot drop at the end. They offer better income then highsec sites by a good margin, but are also much more NPC grindy. If anything I'd like to see more lowsec/nullsec sites, that could be done with less tanky/DPS heavy ships and wouldn't be so time intensive to do. Think for example of a 5/10 DED site, that is doable in a frigate in 5 to 15 minutes. It can be hard, but it should offer something besides dozens of battleships to grind through before the next gate can be accessed and shooting a battlestation at the end for 10 minutes for the final loot drop.

Makavelia wrote:
Julien Brellier wrote:
Oh look, it's another "nerf highsec, move everything worth doing to low or null" thread. Roll


Their are more than a few ways to make good isk in high sec.

Exploration least of all should be the one tied to 1 area of space.. listen to yourself.

Is there a reason exploration shouldn't remain one of them? Also exploration isn't tied to 1 area of space. It's available in all areas of space with greatly increased rewards in the more dangerous areas.


I guess i live in eve past then. When 1 ship filled 1 role.

T3 ships fill far to many roles and a single t1 ship has no say on contesting a T3.. the T3 ship does not even require more training than I;ve put into hurricane yet that limits me to only 4.10. You can run 3.10 and up.. and also run a damn lot more than c2 anomolys (high cane limitation). This bs people talk about how costly T3 is?.. as if they are not making the ships worth and then some every week (minimum).

Welcome to the pay to win generation of eve.