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Heth strikes at State citizens - Report

Author
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#61 - 2013-03-02 07:23:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Agreed with miss Rella. Lady Devonshire, this really isn't the thread for your comments regarding the Republic. The thread is about a tragedy in the Caldari State--surely you can keep your comments focused on that matter.


On the attack itself, may those souls lost rest in peace. I pray that, if the attack had no proper justification, that those responsible will face proper punishment. Though I feel that such protests and riots are rash, as they often end in tragedies like this and serve only to further destabilize the situation.
Henry Montclaire
Guild of Independent Pilots
DammFam
#62 - 2013-03-02 09:17:42 UTC
Tibus Heth also holds dominion over Caldari Prime. If he or his followers are willing to commit such acts against loyal State citizens, what might they be doing to the millions of Gallente citizens trapped under their rule. I'm not given to rampant speculation, but I fear what might be found in the Luminaire system when the Caldari incursion ends. And end it will. The occupation of Caldari Prime is not sustainable, especially with a civil war looming on the horizon.

Beside, Mentas Blaque has made it clear that he intends to retake Luminaire. Should he have the President's support, I have no doubt in his ability to succeed.

The people of the State are now beginning to realize what those in the Federation came to understand when Heth launched his invasion those years ago. He is not acting in the best interests of the State, not now, and not then. He is simply acting to expand his own personal dominion.

While this post is critical of Heth, I must reiterate that I am a neutral party in these conflicts and that my personal feelings on the legitimacy or morality of any government are wholly divorced from my faithful execution of a signed contract.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#63 - 2013-03-02 10:48:15 UTC
Now is precisely the wrong time to stir up a climate of fear and doubt regarding Caldari Prime.

Any military move to conquer Home is likely to provoke an immediate military response.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#64 - 2013-03-02 14:20:59 UTC
Blaque's his own worst enemy in many ways. If he just left well enough alone and watched the Caldari deal with Caldari problems, then this would remain an internal affair in the State and the Federation need never become involved.

His words only serve to vindicate and legitimize the hard anti-Gallentean stance the CPD has taken since its foundation. In short, he's given Heth ammunition.

Somebody put it very well in the Summit last night: one of the clone troopers said "D'you see what that Blaque character's been sayin'? Very Amarrian of him."

This sort of thing is exactly why the State exists, why the war for Home happened, why the Provist jingoism sells to the Caldari people so well. Because the Federation's leaders do not respect our freedom to choose our own way of life, and never have.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#65 - 2013-03-02 17:42:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Rinai Vero
Stitcher wrote:
Blaque's his own worst enemy in many ways. If he just left well enough alone and watched the Caldari deal with Caldari problems, then this would remain an internal affair in the State and the Federation need never become involved.

His words only serve to vindicate and legitimize the hard anti-Gallentean stance the CPD has taken since its foundation. In short, he's given Heth ammunition.

Somebody put it very well in the Summit last night: one of the clone troopers said "D'you see what that Blaque character's been sayin'? Very Amarrian of him."

This sort of thing is exactly why the State exists, why the war for Home happened, why the Provist jingoism sells to the Caldari people so well. Because the Federation's leaders do not respect our freedom to choose our own way of life, and never have.


That may be how you choose to see things, but it doesn't reflect reality. The Federation fully recognized the Caldari State in the Treaty of Tierijev, and continued to respect its ultimate sovereignty up until the current hostilities. If we lacked proper "respect" as you see it, perhaps it had something to do with the factors that led to the near collapse of your whole economy before Heth came along to scapegoat us as the cause of all Caldari woes. For the part of Gallente leadership, our President offered the State an economic cooperation package that was unparalleled in history for its generosity. Not that it did any good, with Tibus Heth thirsty for blood.

Now you see for yourselves what this tyrant's true motivations are. He is ultimately to blame for the policies he's enacted, but don't forget to look at yourselves in the mirror when you wonder how this could have been prevented.
Henry Montclaire
Guild of Independent Pilots
DammFam
#66 - 2013-03-02 19:21:27 UTC
Caldari Prime is an occupied territory. Whether you have a legitimate claim to it or not, it is located within the heart of another government's territory. It has a significant population of Gallente citizens whose fates are unknown. Its Gallentian planet-side security forces have likely become an insurgency against this occupation. The Caldari forces are under Heth's control, and are likely authorized to use extreme methods for controlling the population.

Furthermore, the Caldari defense fleet must be maintained. Replacement personel, weapons, parts, and ships are required for a long term operation of this sort. And this is all ignoring food, water, and medicine. This all needs to either be produced on the planet itself, or smuggled in from Caldari territory.

As I see it, you either find a way for the Gallente to agree to a friendly and legitimate turn over of Caldari Prime to the State, allowing a free flow of needed goods and services to resume at last, or you lose the planet. At this point, the fate of Caldari Prime is in the Federation's hands, and this hard-line approach, especially at this time, is immensely foolish.

Heth put your people in a terrible position. You either make concessions to the Federation, or you lose Caldari Prime again, either to Federation guns, or to starvation, disease, and decay. That is the reality. That is why Caldari Prime is relevant to this upheavel in the State. I am not your enemy for pointing this out.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#67 - 2013-03-02 20:11:12 UTC
After an internal investigation into the events at New Caldari, Pyre Falcon Defence Combine has determined that the HomeGuard Officers who attacked the freighters were carrying out the express wishes of the Kaalakiota Board of Directors.
For that reason, and despite extenuating circumstances, Pyre Falcon Chairwoman Veikitamo Gesakaarin has reluctantly requested that I submit my resignation from Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01 within two weeks of this date.

Our actions have consequences and, as soldiers of the State, it is necessary for us to accept those consequences and bear them without complaint. I deeply apologise to Pyre Falcon for the stain on their record that I have caused by my actions, although I believe I acted in the only manner compatible with my honour.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#68 - 2013-03-02 20:24:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Simon Louvaki
Henry Montclaire wrote:
Caldarit this point, the fate of Caldari Prime is in the Federation's hands, and this hard-line approach, especially at this time, is immensely foolish.


Henry Montclaire wrote:

You either make concessions to the Federation, or you lose Caldari Prime again, either to Federation guns, or to starvation, disease, and decay.


Remember your own words.

If the Federation takes this hardline approach you can bet that the losses will far out weigh the benefit of foolishly attempting to retake Caldari Prime. At this point, demanding concessions is just as foolish. The Federation is a juggernaut, but this path is the same as a lumbering beast lunging at a lone hunter. The weight of the beast will very likely crush and kill the hunter, but at the same time the hunters spear will insure the beast will die, either from its wounds or from another larger predator.

Caldari Prime will be the Federations spear.

If were going to make it out of this, were each going to have to come to some form of an agreement.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

Henry Montclaire
Guild of Independent Pilots
DammFam
#69 - 2013-03-02 22:54:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Henry Montclaire
Your analogy is deeply flawed.

The Federation hardline approach could well be a mission of mercy at this point. What is the food situation on Caldari Prime? Do the people there have power? How much damage to infastructure and production capabilities was done in the Caldari reclamation? How many people are currently alive on the planet? These are questions that need to be answered, and forgive me for doubting the ability of a deeply divided nation to keep a military stronghold deep within enemy lines supplied. You simply have to acknowledge that the current situation is untenable.

I'm personally in favor of a variation of the CONCORD mediated approach advocated elsewhere, but I'm also aware that what is technically possible is not always politically possible.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#70 - 2013-03-02 23:23:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Simon Louvaki
Henry Montclaire wrote:

The Federation hardline approach could well be a mission of mercy at this point. What is the food situation on Caldari Prime? Do the people there have power? How much damage to infastructure and production capabilities was done in the Caldari reclamation? How many people are currently alive on the planet? These are questions that need to be answered, and forgive me for doubting the ability of a deeply divided nation to keep a military stronghold deep within enemy lines supplied. You simply have to acknowledge that the current situation is untenable.


Thats interesting given Blakes' recent ramblings. Its difficult to tell until it happens. Since you ask these questions however, I'll answer to the best of my abilities.

Food situation: Caldari Prime, despite its harsh environment, is capable of self sustainability and produces much of its own food. Aside from that, commerce hasn't been cut off from the planet. I even own and operate a factory there that I used to launch my Corporation. The attack was largely concentrated on industrial areas in key cities, the agricultural infrastructure has suffered little damage from what I've been able to see.

Do they have power: Yes, again, I run an entire Bio-Fules plant there. Even then the State has had years to restore power to the planet. You speak as if the invasion happened yesterday.

Damage: Caldari Prime was reclaimed in a day; There is of course widespread damage, but your former President made it rather easy for the Caldari dropships and warships to concentrate their efforts when he declared martial law and segregated the population. Damage is pretty severe, there is no denying that, but people do continue to go about their lives.

How many people are alive: I believe the casualty reports were in the hundreds of thousands to the low millions during the invasion and even then reports show that invading forces avoided civilian areas for the most part. Do you have a legit reason to believe that even more have died (any more than normal at least) since the occupation of Caldari Prime? As far as I can tell there isn't any food shortage or concentration camps being set up.

Now I'm very aware of how difficult it is on Home, and very aware of the difficulties of having to supply the support fleet but then again, we aren't in a total war. Supply ships still fly through Gallente and Caldari high security space unabated.

What you should realize is that if you were to attack now, the Megas would come back together and Heth's power would be restored. Our people have an uncanny ability to rally together when threatened, rather than turn on each other. This idea that you will sweep in and retake Home while we bicker is seriously flawed and shows how little those in the Federation understand our State. You won't remove Heth by military force. You will however insure that billions will die in the process.

The worst thing the Federation could do right now is consider military force as a solution.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#71 - 2013-03-03 01:37:18 UTC
But that is exactly what we are considering. The State has rattled the Sword of Damocles orbiting Caldari Prime once to often.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#72 - 2013-03-03 01:47:22 UTC
Reconsider. The end will not justify the means.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#73 - 2013-03-03 02:19:53 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
After an internal investigation into the events at New Caldari, Pyre Falcon Defence Combine has determined that the HomeGuard Officers who attacked the freighters were carrying out the express wishes of the Kaalakiota Board of Directors.
For that reason, and despite extenuating circumstances, Pyre Falcon Chairwoman Veikitamo Gesakaarin has reluctantly requested that I submit my resignation from Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01 within two weeks of this date.

Our actions have consequences and, as soldiers of the State, it is necessary for us to accept those consequences and bear them without complaint. I deeply apologise to Pyre Falcon for the stain on their record that I have caused by my actions, although I believe I acted in the only manner compatible with my honour.



Now you understand why I refused to fly within PYRE. I mean them no ill, they are doing as duty demands of them, but it seems you and I are more alike. You have proven both honor and merit by your actions and I am certain the Winds will bear you to profit before too long.

You will always find a place at my wing, Tuulinen-haan.

~Malcolm Khross

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#74 - 2013-03-03 03:35:35 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Reconsider. The end will not justify the means.


So you ask the Federation to for-bare an "opportunity" that the State certainly didn't. Meaning taking advantage of circumstances to obtain by force what you coveted from a weakened and distracted advocacy. I fully understand what an assault on Caldari Prime will mean, but isn't what your asking of the Federation a bit hypocritical? In short your saying don't do what we did to get what you want. I want an honorable end to this madness as much as you Simon, but please.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#75 - 2013-03-03 03:53:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Simon Louvaki
James Syagrius wrote:
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Reconsider. The end will not justify the means.


So you ask the Federation to for-bare an "opportunity" that the State certainly didn't. Meaning taking advantage of circumstances to obtain by force what you coveted from a weakened and distracted advocacy. I fully understand what an assault on Caldari Prime will mean, but isn't what your asking of the Federation a bit hypocritical? In short your saying don't do what we did to get what you want. I want an honorable end to this madness as much as you Simon, but please.


James,

What I am saying is that attacking the State right now will be counteractive to your goals, as well as to those of us who wish to see this war end and Heth out of office. You may retake Home, but what comes after will make the Federation bleed for generations to come. A common enemy is what thrust Heth into power, and a common enemy will keep him in power. An attack will give him exactly that.

I didn't invade Home, I didn't condone the invasion of Home and I don't represent the Caldari State in a political capacity but I will defend it with my life. It would be hypocritical if I had supported those actions or represented the Caldari State in some form of influential circle, but I don't. What I'm advocating is sense and peace. If that makes me a hypocrite, then I'll have to live with that judgment.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#76 - 2013-03-03 15:01:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Supporting the liberation of Home is in no way hypocritical anyway.

Plus, it happened YEARS ago now. The damage has been repaired, the status quo has settled in, the "Fates" of the ethnically Gallentean persons living there is not an unknown - they're alive and well and getting on with their lives. The food situation is at least good enough that the billions of people living on that planet have not suffered any shortage worthy of a news report. And don't give me any crap about media blackouts, journalists can and will infiltrate and transmit in those circumstances and in any case I am not aware of any such blackout still being in effect.. It's SOP to implement one briefly while military operations are ongoing, but after all these years the operation on Home is now peacekeeping and administration.

We've not heard anything from Home, because there's nothing to report. The State looks after its citizens.

It is not occupied territory. There are other terms for a little pocket of foreign sovereignty inside another nation's borders. "Enclave" and "Embassy" spring to mind.

Does anybody bat an eyelid at the sight of guards with SMGs standing outside an embassy compound? No? Well a lone Leviathan-class titan is the equivalent for an enclave-world. It's not saber-rattling, it is simple practical security.

Quote:
The Federation fully recognized the Caldari State in the Treaty of Tierijev, and continued to respect its ultimate sovereignty up until the current hostilities.


There is a gulf of a difference between acknowledging the legality of another nation, and respecting it. There is a difference between recognizing the military and political difficulties involved in going to war with it, and respecting it.

The State's founding was a direct reply to Gallentean disrespect for our right to collective self-determination. The Caldari were founding members of the Federation. There are Caldari signatures on every one of the Federation's founding documents that have any signatures at all. Then it transpired that what we'd signed up for wasn't what we thought, we attempted to leave, and were violenced for it. Our home was taken, our cities burned, and our civilian transports targeted as they attempted to flee.

This is all ancient history. We can, conceivably, say "That was the past, we should live in the present."

The opportunity for us to do so is shared equally with the Federation. It's up to the Federation's voters to produce leadership who DON'T hark back to those bad old days when wounded pride was an excuse to try and bomb us into submission. That branded us "traitors" when we exercised the most sacred right that's enshrined right at the top of their own constitution and Self-Determined. It's up to you to respect our right to make our own choices, even if you don't agree with the choices we make. So long as the Federation continues to fail to do so, it is ignoring the most central tenet of the Democracy it supposedly champions.

For our part, we must oust a beloved hero of the State who is now demonstrating beyond all reasonable doubt that he lacks the merit to lead. Ours is a system of throwing out what is broken and replacing what is obsolete. If a leader does more harm than good, if a manager is incompetent, if a component is inferior, then they are replaced. If the Meritocracy was truly working, I think this would have happened by now. Of course, we're all human and the fact is that I still remember the sight of that man driving an industrial MTAC out into the mud and gunfire to rescue a wounded colleague. I still remember singing the anthems as the flags were hoisted over Arcurio. Tibus Heth did wonderful things for the Caldari people, and it's hard to acknowledge that the man who gave us back our Home now needs to go.... but he must. Under the principles of the meritocracy he himself rebuilt, he must.

That is our problem to resolve. Foreigners are welcome to their opinions, even if we disagree. They are welcome to voice those opinions, this is a public forum for discussion. But they have no right to propose what they would be horrified by in reverse. These same people would be outraged if we were to suggest that we should invade and sort out the Federation's problems, and they would be right to. The fact that they are not outraged when their own leaders say the same thing of the State is the sharpest hypocrisy.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#77 - 2013-03-03 16:46:10 UTC
Pilot Stitcher you write of "respect" but how much respect did your ancestors give their Federal partners when they started an aggressive (and secret) program of building stargates and stations in order to project Caldari power and business interests? One doesn't disrespect ones partner by doing something like this in secrecy and then lying about it when getting caught.

Your people are far from blameless in the matter of "respect".

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#78 - 2013-03-03 17:01:10 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Pilot Stitcher you write of "respect" but how much respect did your ancestors give their Federal partners when they started an aggressive (and secret) program of building stargates and stations in order to project Caldari power and business interests? One doesn't disrespect ones partner by doing something like this in secrecy and then lying about it when getting caught.

Your people are far from blameless in the matter of "respect".


Respect must be earned, Ms. Rella. Our Ancestors found little respect in the way the Federation was treating them and sought to preserve our culture and very way of life, and when push came to shove, they decided it was time to break away. I don't know where you get the idea that they lied about it when they were found out, I've seen nothing to indicate our ancestors lied about anything of the sort.



-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#79 - 2013-03-03 17:02:15 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Pilot Stitcher you write of "respect" but how much respect did your ancestors give their Federal partners when they started an aggressive (and secret) program of building stargates and stations in order to project Caldari power and business interests? One doesn't disrespect ones partner by doing something like this in secrecy and then lying about it when getting caught.

Your people are far from blameless in the matter of "respect".


For the record we didn't lie, we seceded, pretty big difference.

Also, this argument is shrouded in nuance because we could argue that we were first betrayed by the political maneuvering and mongering of the Federal government that kept decreasing our value and increasing theirs.

We've all hard these arguments a thousand times already however, and this thread really isn't the place to be going into them again.

~Malcolm Khross

Svetlana Scarlet
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#80 - 2013-03-03 18:33:54 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Pilot Stitcher you write of "respect" but how much respect did your ancestors give their Federal partners when they started an aggressive (and secret) program of building stargates and stations in order to project Caldari power and business interests? One doesn't disrespect ones partner by doing something like this in secrecy and then lying about it when getting caught.

Your people are far from blameless in the matter of "respect".

The Caldari were never "partners" in the eyes of the Federation -- do not perpetuate an insult by claiming otherwise. The Gallente have always seen themselves some sort of moral guide for the rest of the galaxy, seen themselves as better than others, and because of that they feel themselves entitled to tell everyone else how to run their lives.

The real reason the Gallente were so affronted by the Caldari colonies is not because we kept them hidden or that we did not share with the rest of the Federation, it was because we dared to do something on our own without kowtowing to their "leadership," because we showed the Gallente that we did not need their help, nor their consent, to find our own destiny in the stars. Because we showed the other races under the Gallente that they did not need the Federation, and that was the real truth that sent the Gallente into a furious rage. For that, they burned our cities and massacred our people, and the only reason we survived is because we struck out on their own.

For the Intaki, the Mannar, the Jin-Mei...what will happen when the day comes that the Gallente decide you have become too uppity and decide to punish you for the "hubris" of thinking you are their equals? When they send their fleets to burn your worlds like they did ours?

As far as Caldari Prime goes, I never believed it was worth war to retake, not after three hundred years of occupation and the scouring of Gallente ortillery, but now it is ours and the Gallente must recognize our right to hold our homeworld. To expect us not to defend it, especially with the belligerence of the current Gallente regime, is folly, and perhaps they could use a reminder that there will be a price to be paid for any future attempts to force their interests on the rest of the cluster. Perhaps someday, when the Gallente realize that they must treat the rest of the cluster with respect, when they realize we are not children, we can find some way to demilitarize the border, but that day is not today.