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Missioning in Minmatar space
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Drakken Lowenhertz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-02-28 19:35:00 UTC
I've recently come back to EVE after a long break and i've decided to turn my focus to missioning (was previously low sec pvp). I'm calling minmatar space my home at this time and started missioning there. I've been using my vexor to clear out lvl 2 missions. I have access to lvl 3 missions now and i'm looking for recommendations on what to use. I'm aware i'll want a BC for lvl 3 and BS for lvl 4 but wondering what's the best path to follow.

I've attempted to research what type of enemies to expect in lvl 3 missions and beyond but i've not been able to find much info, i get the feeling i might have been looking in the wrong places so i thought i'd ask here.

Thanks in advance
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-02-28 21:46:34 UTC
drake if you got missile skills

prophecy if you have drone skills

myrmidon if you have tech 2 sentries

projectiles kind of suck for missioning

medium lasers are even worse.

Art of Explosions
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#3 - 2013-02-28 22:03:46 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
projectiles kind of suck for missioning


Umm. They really don't. A well fit and flown Sleipnir, for instance, is one of the few medium ships to be vaguely competitive in L4s (and will utterly annihilate L3s).

In general, L3s are going to be heavy on cruisers and BCs with a decent number of frigates/destroyers. Anything fit to handle all that at range will do them without a problem. If you're in a Vexor now, a Myrmidon would be the next logical step up -- and yes, it's now a viable sentry boat.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#4 - 2013-02-28 22:14:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldiiee
Contrary to the previous post I used a hurricane for all of the LVL3 missions in Minmitar space, I imagine after the ‘balancing’ that a well trained cyclone will be more than competent at doing any LVL-3.

Edit; the previous previous post :) or more simply put projectiles RULE

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-02-28 22:27:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukino Stareine
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
projectiles kind of suck for missioning


Umm. They really don't. A well fit and flown Sleipnir, for instance, is one of the few medium ships to be vaguely competitive in L4s (and will utterly annihilate L3s).

In general, L3s are going to be heavy on cruisers and BCs with a decent number of frigates/destroyers. Anything fit to handle all that at range will do them without a problem. If you're in a Vexor now, a Myrmidon would be the next logical step up -- and yes, it's now a viable sentry boat.


use some perspective, do you really think he's capable of flying a sleipnir?

yes hypothetically you can do missions with projectiles but not with anything this particular player can use.

Best missioning attributes: tank, gank and damage projection.

Name me a projectile based BC that has any of these. Wait you can't because the only one is the cane and that has either terrible projection or terrible dps with below average tank.

Art of Explosions
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#6 - 2013-02-28 22:55:40 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
use some perspective, do you really think he's capable of flying a sleipnir?


Obviously not, no.

Tsukino Stareine wrote:
yes hypothetically you can do missions with projectiles but not with anything this particular player can use.

Best missioning attributes: tank, gank and damage projection.

Name me a projectile based BC that has any of these. Wait you can't because the only one is the cane and that has either terrible projection or terrible dps with below average tank.


Let's look at two L3 fits. First a Drake:

[Drake, L3s]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Beta Reactor Control: Shield Power Relay I

Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
Large Shield Extender II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Shield Recharger II
EM Ward Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
[empty high slot]

Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I

234 omni defense, 361 kinetic DPS (or 241 non-kinetic which yuck). Missiles hit out to 62.9 (figure 60ish in reality). 384m/s should be enough to kite somewhat effectively, meaning the damn thing is actually overtanked.

Oh, all my skills by the by.

And let's look at this Hurricane:

[Hurricane, L3s]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Power Diagnostic System II

Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
[empty high slot]

Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I

So first thing's first: you either need to swap the PDU for an RCU or use a 3% grid implant. PDU is nice because it helps the tank a bit, but obviously that's a tradeoff.

122 omni defense (easily bumped up by using specific hardeners), 444 DPS with any short range ammo (which makes the Hurricane much more flexible on damage type) at 19+36 (so at optimal+half falloff of 37, you're hitting for 80% damage, which comes to 355.2). 480m/s makes the cane way faster and more or less able to dictate the field.

So, assuming no issues with tracking or target signature, the Hurricane and the Drake do about the same damage at 37 with the Hurricane winning closer in and the Drake pulling ahead further out. However, the Hurricane also gets all the advantages that guns always get: instant damage, a relationship between tracking and radial velocity, etc. Oh, and it can pick damage types. Which is kind of a big deal, especially since the Drake really can't anymore.

I don't know about you, but I'd take that Hurricane any day of the week. And I'd also take it over the new Prophecy hands down simply because drone babysitting is yuck. The Myrmidon is a viable competitor if and only if it's using sentries. Harbinger is... not so good. Brutix and Ferox can both get the job done. But I'd still take the Hurricane under most circumstances.
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Fraternity.
#7 - 2013-02-28 23:51:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Cage Man
A cane with T1 ac's can breez through lvl3 missions, just fit a mwd... Cynabal works too.

Tsukino is a noob.. my macharial with its "useless" projectiles just an outstanding job.. even with its meta 4 guns.. LOL.. 11 days to T2.. yipeee

Turrets in most instances work better than missiles..

EDIT-- If you have decent drone skills and like using drones a sentry domi or rattlesnake work really well. Just ignore the sky is falling whines about drones being useless since the last update.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#8 - 2013-03-01 00:30:56 UTC
Drakken Lowenhertz, One of the hardest things to get straight in the game for new players is fitting ships. The forums are littered with requests for fitting advice, the majority of answers will be trolls, and the rest are players convinced of their own mastery of the game. (me included probably)

Unfortunately it’s hard to tell advice from trolls sometimes, the one thing that might be best for you is to find and install EVE-HQ ,
http://www.evehq.net/ or EFT, http://hulkload.com/t223lzujzj4t once installed and configured with your API key found here, https://support.eveonline.com/Pages/Login.aspx?ReturnUrl=%2fapi%2f you will be able to test out fittings for every race and see how long it is going to take to train that fitting to the performance you need.

It will take a little time (A few hours for some, less for others) to figure out some of the ins and outs of fitting ships, but it will give you the ability to figure out exactly what a ship will do with your skills.

Hope that helps.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Drakken Lowenhertz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2013-03-01 00:57:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Drakken Lowenhertz
Thanks to everyone that has contributed thus far. I think i need to provide a few more details on myself and what i'm looking for as i dont think i provided all the neccessary info. From my previous play i've got a little over 9mil SP at this point mostly spent in combat skill but spread pretty evenly across all factions. I can fit t2 tanks for armor or shield but weapons will need further training. With a lack of experience in running missions i'm looking for info on what path to go down on a longer term since i'd like to take the skills i'll be using for the BC forward for a later BS without having to backtrack too much if possible.

I'm aware different factions of NPC have different attributes (defender missiles, TD ect.) but i dont know what factions i will meet in minmatar space lvl 3s and 4s. Can anyone tell me what I should expect to be dealing with in minmatar missions or recommend a type of ship that is well suited to the area.

Thanks for continued contributions.

P.S. I'm aware some have already touched some of what i mentions about but i wanted to clear it up a little.

EDIT: is there such a thing as a ship family that will be better suited to mission in minmatar space or is it not that clear cut?
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Fraternity.
#10 - 2013-03-01 02:01:57 UTC
From my experience from missioning in all the race areas and using many different ships, i would suggest a macharial for minmatare space. Most of the rats will be Angel. So anything that does high explosive damage will be good. I started out as caldari only, and while missile boats are really good.. I find turrets far more useful. example, a turret ship will insta pop a incoming frig/cruiser, while a missile BS will have explosion radius and velocity to deal with. If you can't afford the mach, even meta 4 guns work really well, get a maelstrom and ac fit it.
Sarmatiko
#11 - 2013-03-01 03:27:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarmatiko
Drakken Lowenhertz wrote:
I'm aware different factions of NPC have different attributes (defender missiles, TD ect.) but i dont know what factions i will meet in minmatar space lvl 3s and 4s. Can anyone tell me what I should expect to be dealing with in minmatar missions or recommend a type of ship that is well suited to the area.

In Minmatar space (main mission runner systems around Rens/Hek/Gelfiven) you should expect Angel Cartel (exp/kin) pirates in main missions (Blockade, Vengeance) - this missions fully dependent from region local pirates.
Also you will have two easy missions with Sansha (without TD), some easy Drone missions, couple of easy Serpentis missions (Assault) and Mercenaries (damsel, seven, stop the thief etc). No Guristas (no jamming).

I started in Minmatar space, and believe me - projectiles and minmatar/angel ships is your best choice if you want to live here.
Train in this order: Hurricane - Maelstrom - Machariel - Vargur (optionally).
On noob Hurricane my personal choice was Artillery turrets with passive tank + AB.
Focus on Autocannons for battleships.

ps: if you master Gunnery skills, you wil never go back to missiles Cool
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-03-01 04:09:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukino Stareine
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
use some perspective, do you really think he's capable of flying a sleipnir?


Obviously not, no.

Tsukino Stareine wrote:
yes hypothetically you can do missions with projectiles but not with anything this particular player can use.

Best missioning attributes: tank, gank and damage projection.

Name me a projectile based BC that has any of these. Wait you can't because the only one is the cane and that has either terrible projection or terrible dps with below average tank.


Let's look at two L3 fits. First a Drake:

[Drake, L3s]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Beta Reactor Control: Shield Power Relay I

Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
Large Shield Extender II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Shield Recharger II
EM Ward Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
[empty high slot]

Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I

234 omni defense, 361 kinetic DPS (or 241 non-kinetic which yuck). Missiles hit out to 62.9 (figure 60ish in reality). 384m/s should be enough to kite somewhat effectively, meaning the damn thing is actually overtanked.

Oh, all my skills by the by.

And let's look at this Hurricane:

[Hurricane, L3s]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Power Diagnostic System II

Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
[empty high slot]

Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I

So first thing's first: you either need to swap the PDU for an RCU or use a 3% grid implant. PDU is nice because it helps the tank a bit, but obviously that's a tradeoff.

122 omni defense (easily bumped up by using specific hardeners), 444 DPS with any short range ammo (which makes the Hurricane much more flexible on damage type) at 19+36 (so at optimal+half falloff of 37, you're hitting for 80% damage, which comes to 355.2). 480m/s makes the cane way faster and more or less able to dictate the field.

So, assuming no issues with tracking or target signature, the Hurricane and the Drake do about the same damage at 37 with the Hurricane winning closer in and the Drake pulling ahead further out. However, the Hurricane also gets all the advantages that guns always get: instant damage, a relationship between tracking and radial velocity, etc. Oh, and it can pick damage types. Which is kind of a big deal, especially since the Drake really can't anymore.

I don't know about you, but I'd take that Hurricane any day of the week. And I'd also take it over the new Prophecy hands down simply because drone babysitting is yuck. The Myrmidon is a viable competitor if and only if it's using sentries. Harbinger is... not so good. Brutix and Ferox can both get the job done. But I'd still take the Hurricane under most circumstances.


Firstly: using specific angel hardeners (the damage type shields are already good against) you get 135 dps tank which is not even close to be being enough for some level 3s and you can forget level 4s completely.


My fit in eft says 452 dps with perfect skills so 361 dps at 37km.

My drake fit is 369 dps with perfect skills with scourge. Admittedly this means attacking em/thermal based rats is out of the question but I wouldn't use a hurricane for that either so point is moot.

omni tank 327 dps, enough for most level 4s.

You can even replace a purger with a dps rig and it goes up to 380 dps with 262 omni tank with a 1% cpu implant needed. Still better than the cane.

oh and the kicker: 62.9 km range. Moving 80m/s faster means nothing when I can project damage out to almost 50% more than you. I can also keep transversal up to increase my tank without sacrificing my own dps. I can tank whole rooms in level 3s without breaking a sweat and just burn to the next gate while throwing missiles out.

I can tell you don't fly drakes because you felt it appropriate to put a shield recharger on it.

It's ok to be wrong, but it's a bit embarrassing when you write a wall of text with such confidence and it turns out to be a bunch of garbage.

Stop trying to make out that a hurricane can mission more effectively than a drake: because it can't.

Also to this cage man idiot suggesting machariels, stop making a fool of yourself. Do you really think the OP would be asking for advice here if he was capable of flying machariels?

Art of Explosions
Sarmatiko
#13 - 2013-03-01 05:50:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarmatiko
Tsukino Stareine wrote:

It's ok to be wrong, but it's a bit embarrassing when you write a wall of text with such confidence and it turns out to be a bunch of garbage.
Stop trying to make out that a hurricane can mission more effectively than a drake: because it can't.


Stop making theories and try actually fly Hurricane in PVE. Hurricane with passive tank and arty was used for long time and worked perfectly for any level 3 mission.
No one here with sane mind will recommend battlecruiser for level 4 missions. And because Drake can do it (horribly, in unreasonably large amount of time) this doesn't mean that OP should do it or anybody else.

There is normal common training schedule for Minmatar pilot: Hurricane -> T2 Medium Projectiles -> Maelstrom -> T2 Large Projectiles -> Machariel
Please don't try to squeeze your stupid advices with Drake&Drone/Armor ships in it.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-03-01 06:24:00 UTC
Sarmatiko wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:

It's ok to be wrong, but it's a bit embarrassing when you write a wall of text with such confidence and it turns out to be a bunch of garbage.
Stop trying to make out that a hurricane can mission more effectively than a drake: because it can't.


Stop making theories and try actually fly Hurricane in PVE. Hurricane with passive tank and arty was used for long time and worked perfectly for any level 3 mission.
No one here with sane mind will recommend battlecruiser for level 4 missions. And because Drake can do it (horribly, in unreasonably large amount of time) this doesn't mean that OP should do it or anybody else.

There is normal common training schedule for Minmatar pilot: Hurricane -> T2 Medium Projectiles -> Maelstrom -> T2 Large Projectiles -> Machariel
Please don't try to squeeze your stupid advices with Drake&Drone/Armor ships in it.


did the guy say he was a minmatar pilot?

Maybe learn to read before making assumptions.

I have BC V, i fly hurricanes and I've also tried doing missions with it: it sucks compared to a drake for all the reasons I listed above.

It's perfectly fine sure, but I never said it wasn't, I said the drake is better and it is.

I also never recommended a battlecruiser for level 4s, I just pointed out that a hurricane wouldn't even stand a chance and a in a drake at least it's possible.

Art of Explosions
Sarmatiko
#15 - 2013-03-01 06:49:06 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
did the guy say he was a minmatar pilot?

The guy said he will fly in Minmatar space. And Minmatar ships with projectiles are the most effective choice for Minmatar space. Simple as that.

Not the Drake with spherical pure kinetic damage against Angels with primary hole in explosive resistance.
Not T1 gallente/amarr armor ships with initially weak armor explosive resistance.
Not Drone ships with broken AI mechanic against drones and irrelevant hybrid weapons.

ps: according to your KB losses, you either never trained T2 projectiles and not credible to say anything about their effectiveness, or you just cheap and like to be ineffective just to save couple of isks.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-03-01 07:26:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukino Stareine
Sarmatiko wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
did the guy say he was a minmatar pilot?

The guy said he will fly in Minmatar space. And Minmatar ships with projectiles are the most effective choice for Minmatar space. Simple as that.

Not the Drake with spherical pure kinetic damage against Angels with primary hole in explosive resistance.
Not T1 gallente/amarr armor ships with initially weak armor explosive resistance.
Not Drone ships with broken AI mechanic against drones and irrelevant hybrid weapons.

ps: according to your KB losses, you either never trained T2 projectiles and not credible to say anything about their effectiveness, or you just cheap and like to be ineffective just to save couple of isks.


so much clueless in one post, where do I begin?

http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=24129

primary hole in explosive correct, second lowest resist? Yeah I think you can figure that out yourself.

10% difference is more than made up by the fact the drake's damage projection is far superior to the cane's.

Initially weak explosive resistances can be easily covered with the proper fittings, you have no ground to stand on here. Prophecy and myrmidon both out tank the cane and still do more effective dps than it even while having to cover the low explosive base resist.

So you think myrmidons and prophecies use hybrid weapons? Need I go on?

AI mechanics are not broken, they're just not as easy to bypass now.

My KB losses are nothing to do with PvE, why even bring that up?

Art of Explosions
Sarmatiko
#17 - 2013-03-01 08:33:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarmatiko
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
so much clueless in one post, where do I begin?
http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=24129
primary hole in explosive correct, second lowest resist? Yeah I think you can figure that out yourself.

Oh, I almost forgot about this "argument" from Drake/missile users. "Missiles are universal", "just look on that second kinetic resistance, I can still shoot scourge with less dps than normal exp/kin projectiles".
Yet they all prefer to live in regions with Guristas. Smile

Quote:
Initially weak explosive resistances can be easily covered with the proper fittings, you have no ground to stand on here. Prophecy and myrmidon both out tank the cane and still do more effective dps than it even while having to cover the low explosive base resist.

"Effective dps of drones"? "More than Cane"? Yeah, right. We need more theoretics in this thread.

Quote:
AI mechanics are not broken, they're just not as easy to bypass now.

"Oh noes, those Angel frigs just killed half of my "effective dps!. You bastards!"
Drones were useless before, they are useless now. Only sentries can contribute in PVE, and they are not good enough in Minmatar space.

Tsukino Stareine wrote:
My KB losses are nothing to do with PvE, why even bring that up?

Because you clearly don't have enough skillpoints in gunnery tree to be able comment or give any proper advice in this thread.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#18 - 2013-03-01 09:37:04 UTC
Sarmatiko, you should already know that Dreak/Tengu are the answer to whatever question may be :)

Invalid signature format
Sarmatiko
#19 - 2013-03-01 12:34:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarmatiko
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Sarmatiko, you should already know that Dreak/Tengu are the answer to whatever question may be :)

Yes I know.
I just hope that Tsukino Stareine has been fed enough in this thread and will not continue to spread stupidity.

Meanwhile I have jumped to Hurricane and recorded simple video for OP featuring part of common PVE process on Angel Blockade lvl 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wIdhc4PwvY
It took 20 minutes to kill everything, not caring about triggers and shield never dropped below 60%. Other lvl 3 missions should be much more easier and faster, and for the lvl 4 - Maelstrom is the ship of newbie choice. (old vid from 2.5 years ago).

ps: you can fly Drake and "tank whole room" until pirates (or you) die of boredom, or you can kill everything fast enough, so you don't need any tank at all. That's how Winmatar roll Bear
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#20 - 2013-03-01 13:57:04 UTC
Heh, I even trained this toon for tengu but my alt in Mach is just too awesome at killing everything to switch :)

And yes, for L3s I was using Hurricane (but AC not arty) with passive shield tank and it was quick and easy job. That was before I was even able to access any L4 agents. Then I switched to Mael (also AC but active tank due to hull bonus) and while cross training Gallente I earned enough to buy a Mach. Recently I was grinding L3s again for different corp and used cynabal but that was way more easier due to better skills I have now.

So yeah, drake...

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