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How does a frigate prevent a faster frigate from staying too close?
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God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#21 - 2013-02-28 22:47:01 UTC
Skarp Severasse wrote:
Great responses!

I have a tough one for you. There is a blaster Atron on Loadout Browser that has both a web and a scram. The damage output is spectacular, and range is above and beyond a normal frigate. But it wants to hug you.

Here is the scenario: Your Incursus is caught within the Atron's web / scram range. You are both webbing each other, but the Atron would be faster. How will you fit / pilot your incursus to get out of that predicament?

Bonus if you use the above-mentioned Incursus fit as a starting point, but any solution would do - as long as you pilot an Incursus.

==================
EDIT: This scenario is so interesting, that I am creating a new thread for it. URL in a minute.
==================

EDIT2: Here is the new thread.


Hey look, my atron fit!

That atron and my rail incursus (a rig and low different is different from yours) have killed countless slashers. You can easily kill one if you start at 10km or more with the rail incursus as long as you know how to do an approach. This I think may be the issue because the rail incursus is one of the trickier t1 frigs to fly and needs a lot of SP so you get the most dps and speed out of it.

If you do manage to screw up or get unlucky and do land on 0 burn immediately in one direction with your OH'd AB for one cycle. Either two things can happen:

1) He doesn't react fast enough/thought you didn't have as much range and had a longer range orbit and range TD. In this case he's pretty screwed because you'll just blap him.

2) On the other hand from the get go he could have OH'd AB and orbit 500 with a tracking speed script loaded and get right on you. I've found that this situation is still easily winnable in most cases. When he gets on you just do a 180 degree turn and he'll sling way past you. For maximum effect do it when he's approaching the opposite direction you're going to turn to. Transversal velocity will be super low at this time and you'll easily take care of him.

Also I do wonder if he has a neut he must be shield fit and have no web or be untanked because with a neut and armor repper would be counter productive. Alternatively I suppose a 200mm plate is doable but I thing it would be pretty silly as he's relying on speed and agility for life. In any case if he has no web you can dictate range and win and if he has a web he'll have no tank or no neut so you'll be fine anyhow.

Hope that helps.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#22 - 2013-02-28 22:54:38 UTC
And to your rail incursus vs blaster atron (my fit in particular) it depends on the pilot. It's all situational on the pilot skill as I've tested the two against each other on a corp mate a while back. In that situation I was the atron and my corpy was in the rail incursus. I managed to get under his guns without hitting armor and melt his tank. Then we flipped and I beat the atron. Does this make me better? I don't think so, it just shows different styles.

Now if I was to fight myself one on one with those two fits I wouldn't engage with the atron as myself in the rail incursus would never allow the atron to get close enough to get under its guns before he died. Which shows that approach is everything and who reacts faster wins the engagement. If the incursus catches the atron 9km away that atron is a wreck before he knows it. If the atron is lucky enough to establish a tight orbit its unholy dps will dominate the incursus.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
feihcsiM
THE B0YS
#23 - 2013-03-01 10:08:11 UTC
Skarp Severasse wrote:
Example frigates below.

Incursus:

  1. Afterburner Fitted
  2. Webifier fitted
  3. Scrambler fitted
  4. 6.27s align time


Slasher:

  1. Afterburner fitted
  2. Scrambler fitted
  3. Neut fitted
  4. Tracking disruptor fitted
  5. 4.17s align time


Question: how would the Incursus prevent the Slasher from staying at very close range?

Options:

  1. Incursus could fit two webifiers and burn away
  2. ... ?


Am I missing something here? The Incursus has a web in the fits you posted, why wouldn't it be able to keep range?

Assuming lvl V skills and just an AB the Slasher does 1343m/s, 1746m/s with heat, or with an ODII does 1511m/s and 1965m/s overloaded less 50-60% depending on web. Incursus does 1082m/s or 1410 m/s with heat.

It shouldn't be too much of a problem keeping the slasher at range really other than his short align time means he can change direction faster and can probably pull enough range to warp away.

It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine.
Skarp Severasse
The Untraceable
M A R A K U G A
#24 - 2013-03-01 10:25:58 UTC
God's Apples wrote:
Hey look, my atron fit!

Good work, man. Also appreciate the rest of your comments. Really insightful.

God's Apples wrote:
You can easily kill one if you start at 10km or more with the rail incursus as long as you know how to do an approach.

Absolutely, I have just started to realize this. I win a lot of fights by starting at about 10k just long enough to figure out if I should burn away and load long range ammo or load medium range ammo and stay at about 7k.

God's Apples wrote:
On the other hand from the get go he could have OH'd AB and orbit 500 with a tracking speed script loaded and get right on you. I've found that this situation is still easily winnable in most cases. When he gets on you just do a 180 degree turn and he'll sling way past you. For maximum effect do it when he's approaching the opposite direction you're going to turn to. Transversal velocity will be super low at this time and you'll easily take care of him.

I am going to try this. I totally demolish Slashers with dual webs, but I am going to try the 180 next time with one web.

God's Apples wrote:
Hope that helps.

Absolutely!

feihcsiM wrote:
Am I missing something here? The Incursus has a web in the fits you posted, why wouldn't it be able to keep range?

Assuming lvl V skills and just an AB the Slasher does 1343m/s, 1746m/s with heat, or with an ODII does 1511m/s and 1965m/s overloaded less 50-60% depending on web. Incursus does 1082m/s or 1410 m/s with heat.

It shouldn't be too much of a problem keeping the slasher at range really other than his short align time means he can change direction faster and can probably pull enough range to warp away.

You might be right. Slasher is slightly faster, but with some manual piloting it should be possible to stay at decent range some of the time. I guess I could even load close range Void ammo because he would not be able to orbit me, therefore the transversal speed would be negligible.
Skarp Severasse
The Untraceable
M A R A K U G A
#25 - 2013-03-01 12:39:47 UTC
God's Apples wrote:
Now if I was to fight myself one on one with those two fits I wouldn't engage with the atron as myself in the rail incursus would never allow the atron to get close enough to get under its guns before he died.

You really think the Incursus could maintain distance for long enough to kill the Atron? Remember, the Incursus does not have a MWD, and the Atron with AB is faster than the Incursus with AB. It seems to me that the Incursus would have to get pretty lucky pull that off. Maybe with the Incursus using lead charges and burning away from the Atron. That gives it an optimal range of ~15k. The Incursus speed is 1129m/s and the Atron speed is 1382m/s (Both non-overheated).

Once the Atron reaches ~6k range it is pretty much all over. Hmm, the Incursus has the Small Armor Repairer, so it would last for a bit. Maybe it *is* long enough for it to kill the Atron.

You sure did a good job on that Atron. Unless you are a kiting MWD-frig, you will have troubles with that one. [Source: Number-crunching from a noob]
terzho
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#26 - 2013-03-01 13:13:47 UTC
Kicking it in the balls.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#27 - 2013-03-01 13:24:02 UTC
Skarp Severasse wrote:
God's Apples wrote:
Now if I was to fight myself one on one with those two fits I wouldn't engage with the atron as myself in the rail incursus would never allow the atron to get close enough to get under its guns before he died.

You really think the Incursus could maintain distance for long enough to kill the Atron? Remember, the Incursus does not have a MWD, and the Atron with AB is faster than the Incursus with AB. It seems to me that the Incursus would have to get pretty lucky pull that off. Maybe with the Incursus using lead charges and burning away from the Atron. That gives it an optimal range of ~15k. The Incursus speed is 1129m/s and the Atron speed is 1382m/s (Both non-overheated).

Once the Atron reaches ~6k range it is pretty much all over. Hmm, the Incursus has the Small Armor Repairer, so it would last for a bit. Maybe it *is* long enough for it to kill the Atron.

You sure did a good job on that Atron. Unless you are a kiting MWD-frig, you will have troubles with that one. [Source: Number-crunching from a noob]



You need to be able to overheat to use the rail incursus properly.

But yes properly flown a rail Incursus should take any atron most of the time. I fly it with a plate and still have no difficulty getting distance.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#28 - 2013-03-01 22:17:20 UTC
You want to use anti if you're going to keep him at 7km, dude. Anti and 125mm rails have a ~7km optimal and about that much falloff. Lead won't do enough damage against an atron to kill him effectively before he can do harm to you. Just remember that at 7km with faction anti anti the atron is still doing 95 dps and at 5km about 120. Once you skill up more and have higher navigation skills and armor honeycombing and whatnot adding a 200 plate in place of the ANP will do you really well against higher dps targets.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
Gah'Matar
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#29 - 2013-03-01 22:38:48 UTC
Trickiest close orbit td/neut slasher I fought used 2 smc rigs to keep the cap going (along with Zor's Hyper-Link and overheated AB) neut managed to cap out my coercer while web, his speed and td kept my dps low enough he could rep with a cycle every 8-10 seconds. (o/ Chadillac, gf)
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2013-03-08 16:26:17 UTC
Explode it. Problem solved.. debris tend to not move very fast...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
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