These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...

First post
Author
The Sinister
Eve Minions
Silentium Consortium
#121 - 2014-03-24 22:46:51 UTC
I agree that all Local Chats should be like WH space...

Local chat in eve is free intel.

I say change all local chats and make them like WH local chat if u say something then you expose ur self.

Then again CCP has NO BALLS to do this... so I have just wasted my time typing this!
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#122 - 2014-03-24 23:15:41 UTC
The Sinister wrote:
I agree that all Local Chats should be like WH space...

Local chat in eve is free intel.

I say change all local chats and make them like WH local chat if u say something then you expose ur self.

Then again CCP has NO BALLS to do this... so I have just wasted my time typing this!


I'd like to see and end to local as well, but I think cloaking is fine and there's no need for a cloak hunting vessel or module.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
#123 - 2014-03-24 23:22:37 UTC
You would have to balance this against the natural cloak bestowed on jumping. You do not want to make it easy for a gate camp to kill people still loading into the system.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#124 - 2014-03-24 23:39:24 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
The Sinister wrote:
I agree that all Local Chats should be like WH space...

Local chat in eve is free intel.

I say change all local chats and make them like WH local chat if u say something then you expose ur self.

Then again CCP has NO BALLS to do this... so I have just wasted my time typing this!


I'd like to see and end to local as well, but I think cloaking is fine and there's no need for a cloak hunting vessel or module.

Many adjustment options to balance the additional intel this offers would work.
I suggest the one linked in my sig below, as it is not as extreme as some others I have read, while offering interesting game play aspects.

This would not be trivializing cloaking, if we also balanced the effort to know when to hunt.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#125 - 2014-03-24 23:41:01 UTC
Petrified wrote:
You would have to balance this against the natural cloak bestowed on jumping. You do not want to make it easy for a gate camp to kill people still loading into the system.

This is described specifically, and is not placing gate cloak players at risk.

The device does not detect this effect, in short.
Gigan Amilupar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#126 - 2014-03-25 09:19:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Gigan Amilupar
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Gigan Amilupar wrote:
Edit: Removed from this post due to size


So, you are pointing out that someone MIGHT go to the effort, of posting a guard at these locations, or patrolling them on a basis which is regular enough to prevent activity you described.

In a game where PvP players cannot be bothered to stand guard over PvE players, for obvious reasons.

And yet, you think seeing the name boldly listed in local lacks a comparable impact on the game?

Better, even, is the realization you have to have players scouting without definitive knowledge that they are even going to find ANYTHING, since the possible target they seek is not being listed in local.

SO, to recap, you have players proactively searching, with ships mounting the painter module described.
They have no certain knowledge that the cloaked pilot is present, so cannot know if this possible target is in the next system or even logged off.
This means, to avoid playing endless shell games, they have to post themselves on guard duty, by the vulnerable targets they seek to protect.

Exactly the way PvP players don't, in the current game.

Smile. Logic dictates that you are expecting a comparable play style to exist, to one that we have already demonstrated to be invalid due to lack of interest.


Judging from your post, the only point of mine your arguing against is the reduced capability of cloaky-ganks and blop-drops. Ok, so let's, for arguments sake, say that you are correct, and that no one is going to be sitting on an alt watching for cloakies while their other toons mine or whatever because they cannot be bothered to even remotely protect themselves. Alright, that's fine. It's actually a valid point. But what about everything else the new mechanic breaks, i.e:

Supers being able to cloak up and wait to log off (I might be alright with this one, but a lot of people would be rather pissed).

Being able to warn about bombers in a fleet fight (difference might be small, but it could keep the insta-canes ready to F1 like mad).

Being able to run gatecamps (You'd be crazy to camp a gate without a ship dedicated to finding cloakies).

Being able to see if people have eyes on your POS. Intel is incredibly valuable in w-space, and keeping a watch on things is normal there. This would dramatically effect that, and to a lesser extent nullsec due to the removal of local.

And of course for supers logging in. Who needs a regular scout when you can use one that can see that cloaky who is just waiting for your super to appear?

Also, you seem to suggest that I'm defending local. I'm not. As a system for gathering intel it's effortless and far too powerful. Just because I don't like the idea of nerfing cloaking (and that is what this is, removal of local or not) does not mean I support locals current iteration.

TL;DR I'm convinced this idea is causing more problems then it's solving, if there is even a problem to solve to begin with as I'm not convinced cloaking is a "problem" that needs "solving".
Gabriel Elarik
Celestiel Rams
#127 - 2014-03-25 13:10:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Elarik
against it i need every sec to survive but another question

if i understand your post right only cloaked vessels dont show up in local correct
if thats so then cloakys should apear in local while in gate cloak even for 10 sec until they aktivate the cloak module

the gate cloak is by all means no cloak its a tool because some players have a bad connection and need more time to load
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#128 - 2014-03-25 13:22:06 UTC
I am going to take the liberty, and associate the recommended balance solution that I reference when the question arises for this context.
(The link, as always, is in my sig)

Gigan Amilupar wrote:
1. Supers being able to cloak up and wait to log off (I might be alright with this one, but a lot of people would be rather pissed).

2. Being able to warn about bombers in a fleet fight (difference might be small, but it could keep the insta-canes ready to F1 like mad).

3. Being able to run gatecamps (You'd be crazy to camp a gate without a ship dedicated to finding cloakies).

4. Being able to see if people have eyes on your POS. Intel is incredibly valuable in w-space, and keeping a watch on things is normal there. This would dramatically effect that, and to a lesser extent nullsec due to the removal of local.

5. And of course for supers logging in. Who needs a regular scout when you can use one that can see that cloaky who is just waiting for your super to appear?

Also, you seem to suggest that I'm defending local. I'm not. As a system for gathering intel it's effortless and far too powerful. Just because I don't like the idea of nerfing cloaking (and that is what this is, removal of local or not) does not mean I support locals current iteration.

TL;DR I'm convinced this idea is causing more problems then it's solving, if there is even a problem to solve to begin with as I'm not convinced cloaking is a "problem" that needs "solving".


1. This supers cloaking is actually a non issue.
Here is why: The need to hide from an object can be eliminated, when the object can also be eliminated.
In other words, your fleet mates can secure the system you are in, and really clean it out. There are no cloaked hostiles able to ambush you when your friends are around, and it is accepted that operating a super is never recommended solo.

2. You can tell your fleet bombers are present.
Being able to shoot them is a different matter. If you are not in lock range, you cannot decloak them at all.
If you have the hunting module active, you can see them anywhere on grid, but only by locking them can you expose them.
PLUS: Being cloaked, they cannot be seen in local, nor can they see local itself. These bombers are both blind and in the dark, as far as local chat goes. Both sides are relying on coms to coordinate here.

3. Gatecamps.
The gate cloak effect is not revealed to the user of this module.
While this does make bubble camps possibly more effective, against ships trying to cross while cloaked, only a bubble or comparable area warp prevention can keep the typical cloaked ship around long enough to be at risk.
The module does not see anything unique until the opponent switches over to their onboard cloak, at which time it is probable that they will also be attempting warp.
The lock time for this module is not faster than a normal lock for targeting, and only the painter equipped vessel is locked when it completes. All other craft can then start their own locking cycle once the cloaked ship is then exposed.
While it is POSSIBLE for the hunting ship to switch off the detection module and begin firing at this point, they also blind themselves to further arrivals by doing so.
Add to this, the cloaking ship has at least one locking cycle, and in many cases two, within which to warp off grid entirely.

4. This is not functional in W space.
I know it may not be specified in the OP, but this question has already been asked.
I am sorry you missed it, but I again specify here that wormhole space will not have this module, nor will they have a partial version of local chat added in either.

5. The flip side of the first question involving supers.
In all seriousness, how many supers are going to log in with an unknown in local, without at LEAST significant backup present?
Are we discussing that super pilot who has ignored hostiles in local?
Your ambush seems better to succeed, when the scout needs to screen the entire system, because they have no idea if a cloaked hostile is present at all.
Current system: Scouts can't see a cloaked ship on grid, but they can have perfect awareness of a hostile present in system.
My proposed system: Scouts can have perfect awareness of all ships on grid, but can't see if cloaked ships are otherwise in system, without probing out the entire place. For bigger systems, this can be tasking.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#129 - 2014-03-25 13:24:19 UTC
Gabriel Elarik wrote:
against it i need every sec to survive but another question

if i understand your post right only cloaked vessels dont show up in local correct
if thats so then cloakys should apear in local while in gate cloak even for 10 sec until they aktivate the cloak module

the gate cloak is by all means no cloak its a tool because some players have a bad connection and need more time to load

The gate cloak is not countered by this hunting module, only the cloaks mounted on ships directly.

As to which ships show up in local, that depends on how this would be balanced. My suggested method may surprise you, and is listed in my sig below.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#130 - 2014-06-02 17:40:25 UTC
Hunting cloaked ships, balanced correctly, can make cloaking more enjoyable for everyone.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#131 - 2014-07-09 15:04:50 UTC
This thread has been restored for further discussion.

Please keep in mind, this thread does not advocate changes in local chat, but reflects a method to hunt cloaked ships.
It is an obvious detail to many, that this could be balanced for game play by modifying local chat in one of many ways, discussed in many other threads.
The key point is that I am not trying to trivialize cloaking, so I stress that this idea relies on whichever path is most practical for such balance.

Nikk
Elfi Wolfe
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2014-07-09 16:54:07 UTC
Interesting.

"Please point to the place on the doll where the carebear touched you."

Lord Fudo
Doomheim
#133 - 2014-07-09 18:02:38 UTC
If you're cloaked, you should not show up in local.

Jump through gate or enter kspace from a wormhole, you shouldn't show in local till you uncloak, then once you cloak your ship you vanish from local.

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#134 - 2014-07-09 18:31:25 UTC
Lord Fudo wrote:
If you're cloaked, you should not show up in local.

Jump through gate or enter kspace from a wormhole, you shouldn't show in local till you uncloak, then once you cloak your ship you vanish from local.


I appreciate the thought, but this thread is about how cloaked ships could be hunted.

Your idea about how local could be changed in order to possibly balance it is better supported in a different thread.
Lord Fudo
Doomheim
#135 - 2014-07-09 19:09:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Fudo
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Lord Fudo wrote:
If you're cloaked, you should not show up in local.

Jump through gate or enter kspace from a wormhole, you shouldn't show in local till you uncloak, then once you cloak your ship you vanish from local.


I appreciate the thought, but this thread is about how cloaked ships could be hunted.

Your idea about how local could be changed in order to possibly balance it is better supported in a different thread.


"#1Posted: 2013.02.25 16:46 | Report | Edited by: Nikk Narrel
Like
9
This module would require a balance to be in place, in order to not shift the advantage against cloaked play entirely.

I would recommend that since this is a boost to intelligence gathering, in the form of allowing cloaked vessel detection and subsequent predation, a counter be placed to reduce the intel aspect, whose combined effect with this, would otherwise trivialize cloaking.

That being, Local Chat no longer displaying cloaked vessels, whether specific to them or as part of a larger set of changes."

So this topic, has nothing to do with changing local? Yet, its in the title, and in your OP as well?

I've talked about not showing up in local if cloaked and devices for uncloaking ships before. Nothing new.http://www.eve-search.com/thread/351239-1/page/2
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#136 - 2014-07-09 19:16:17 UTC
Lord Fudo wrote:
So this topic, has nothing to do with changing local? Yet, its in the title, and in your OP as well?

This thread is not about that, no.

That said, this thread evokes an idea that is not balanced on it's own. A change in other areas, possibly local, could compensate for this.

This thread remains available for the purpose of pointing out how additional changes to the game could be great for gameplay.
I am avoiding the hot-button of discussing local chat beyond agreeing that is one possible area we could look at.

Just not here.

Possible methods of hunting cloaked ships is just too good to pass up, and threads on local are a dime a dozen.
Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#137 - 2014-07-10 04:24:27 UTC
Ugh, I smell repeated necromancy, but at least there's still life to this thread.

Firstly, I don't see the point of trying to discuss your specific implementation without your beaten cry to remove local. Without it, cloaky pilots are very visible in local (everywhere but WHs anyway) which makes deployment of 'hunters' far easier in response to a known presence. A change in local is an essential buff to cloakies if you're going to nerf them with a hard counter like this.

Secondly, the module is incredibly niche-
Covops cloaks are capable of being aligned, bouncing safes fairly rapidly, such a module is a mild inconvenience for normal operation. It does tilt gatecamps in the favour of the campers (no burning through a bubble hoping to sneak by an active camp with a hunter around). However, it doesn't prevent incursions past gatecamps, merely limits them to brute force, nullfied T3s/ceptors and bridged fleets, excluding only covops in particular. Do covops need that nerf, are they that unbalanced?

Regular cloaks are fairly rare modules... mainly limited to the odd interdictor and travel fits with room in the highs. These ships already suffer substantial penalties for using their cloaks- reduced velocity, inability to warp while cloaked, need to accelerate to warp when breaking cloak, lengthened lock times. Do they need further nerfing beyond the already serious penalties involved?

Thirdly, for WH players, this substantially effects the state of play- the ability for any number of cloaked ships to be in a system (logged in or otherwise) is part of the WH charm. With the hunter module, a system can be definitively cleared of logged in cloakies and vigilance maintained as to the presence of new ones- a radical change, one that I expect wouldn't be welcome.

It boils down to a fundamental problem- cloaking is a binary thing. As soon as you put the ultimate power in the hands of defenders, e.g. an anti-cloaking 'off button', even if there's severe penalties to the ship capable of doing so, you ultimately render cloaking pointless and instead of balancing things, push cloaking out of the metagame as a useful feature. Offence must always remain marginally more powerful than defence, otherwise stalemate is inevitable.

So, with that in mind, how do we balance cloaking devices to be offensive modules rather than defensive modules? There's some obvious suggestions that have already been made (my favourite being the module generating a small but steady amount of heat- excellent reuse of current game mechanics). This moves cloaking from being a binary perpetual switch to something that cannot be sustained indefinitely- use it or lose it.

With that specific implementation in mind, you get a far more subtle, balanced anti-cloaking module- an AoE module that increases the heat generation of cloaking modules within the vicinity (blah blah tachyon particles making it harder to cloak or something). It doesn't guarantee a decloak immediately, but with sufficient hunting and hounding you can force them to burn out and decloak. Flaws... it's an on-grid thing only, however perma-cloaking is gone so that's less of an issue- they'll appear on d-scan eventually.
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#138 - 2014-07-10 04:36:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Altirius Saldiaro
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
The Sinister wrote:
I agree that all Local Chats should be like WH space...

Local chat in eve is free intel.

I say change all local chats and make them like WH local chat if u say something then you expose ur self.

Then again CCP has NO BALLS to do this... so I have just wasted my time typing this!


I'd like to see and end to local as well, but I think cloaking is fine and there's no need for a cloak hunting vessel or module.


^^^
Cloaking is fine as is. We have no issues with it in WH space.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#139 - 2014-07-10 13:16:43 UTC
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
The Sinister wrote:
I agree that all Local Chats should be like WH space...

Local chat in eve is free intel.

I say change all local chats and make them like WH local chat if u say something then you expose ur self.

Then again CCP has NO BALLS to do this... so I have just wasted my time typing this!


I'd like to see and end to local as well, but I think cloaking is fine and there's no need for a cloak hunting vessel or module.


^^^
Cloaking is fine as is. We have no issues with it in WH space.

This is not about cloaking in itself. It is about being able to hunt cloaked ships if & when that would become balanced.

Oh, and it was already stated this would not exist in WH space at all, so no worries.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#140 - 2014-07-10 13:34:39 UTC
Jessica Danikov wrote:
Ugh, I smell repeated necromancy, but at least there's still life to this thread.

Firstly, I don't see the point of trying to discuss your specific implementation without your beaten cry to remove local.
.... trimmed down for space...
nerf them with a hard counter like this.

It has already been pointed out that this requires a balance.
That is given, and by pointing out this detail you at least agree with me here.

Does it NEED to be local specifically?
No. While many view local as the most obvious option here, it is not the only one.
And even if it IS local, the number of potential options for this is quite lengthy, and occupies more threads on their own beyond any need to repeat here.

Jessica Danikov wrote:
Secondly, the module is incredibly niche-
.... trimmed down for space...
they'll appear on d-scan eventually.


You seem intent on skating past the key defining detail of this module.
It is the mirror opposite of the cloaking module itself.

Each wants the same ship hulls for best use.
While using these specific ship hulls, both can enter warp while maintaining operation.
Other hulls not specific to the above need to shut down and restart after warping.
Each wants the same or equivalent skills, all present in the game currently.
Both deny use of other ship mounted modules that require activation, such as weapons or speed boosting effects.

I have yet to see a more balanced approach to this.

As to how things are used, players are just like other people in the world.
We adapt, and with a vengeance.

Just because something changes so the use is not identical to the previous one, is no indication of value in itself.
If you can define a way that this would be worse, and could NOT be adapted to reasonably, I think that would be a worthy discussion.