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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...

First post
Author
supernova ranger
The End of Eternity
#61 - 2013-07-17 03:10:28 UTC
I believe local should be controlled by the sovereign alliance holder. Any resource in their boarders should be a privilege and not a right. If you don't like their settings on local or if you don't have the right standings... Take it from them.

So much chit chat on how local should be used... And I'm not discrediting what anyone has said, there are some great arguments, but I think settling it how all eve conflicts should end is best... PEW PEW BOOM!!!!!!!
Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire
#62 - 2013-07-17 08:27:50 UTC
The only reason local or lack there of works in wormhole space is because of the special rules regarding wh space. In particular no cyno jumping/bridging in wh space. Cloaked ships are well balanced. Any covert ships are severely limited in there combat capabilities! You cannot just remove local from k-space and throw in a new ship/mod/skills for decloaking people. ITS NOT THAT SIMPLE. Doing this would make Eve which is already equated too often as a second job even more so. The amount of effort the normal nullbear has to put in is pretty minimal. Nullsec alliances are held together by the hard work of a handful of people that are able enough to herd the cats along to keep coffers filled and fleets running. Now you would make them have to put in much more effort just to rat. The mainstay of many nullsec'ers play time.
Siri Exotic
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#63 - 2013-07-17 14:21:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Siri Exotic
It's not very solo player freindly, solo operaters uninsterested would be relegated to live in 0.5 -1.0 for the rest of their lives.

It would promote ganking and favour the PvP'ers. Not Everyone plays this game to get blown up.

not everyone is in a corp/alliance with friends, the MMO needs to support the solo player as well as the mass. Sometimes that little chat window in the Bottom Left is the only communication some people get with their old freinds.

I see why some don't want it, but I expect alot of people would just lose interest in playing, and in a game that needs More FRESH subscribers (not alts etc..) the game should be made more new player freindly not an even steeper learning curve.

on a slightly supportive note : ...If Local chat went, I'd at least expect a Ticker that tells you how many people in system when you jump in (so you don't know who they are just they are there.) , and real time gate activity tracking from the map.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#64 - 2013-07-17 15:41:57 UTC
Siri Exotic wrote:
It's not very solo player freindly, solo operaters uninsterested would be relegated to live in 0.5 -1.0 for the rest of their lives.

It would promote ganking and favour the PvP'ers. Not Everyone plays this game to get blown up.

not everyone is in a corp/alliance with friends, the MMO needs to support the solo player as well as the mass. Sometimes that little chat window in the Bottom Left is the only communication some people get with their old freinds.

I see why some don't want it, but I expect alot of people would just lose interest in playing, and in a game that needs More FRESH subscribers (not alts etc..) the game should be made more new player freindly not an even steeper learning curve.

on a slightly supportive note : ...If Local chat went, I'd at least expect a Ticker that tells you how many people in system when you jump in (so you don't know who they are just they are there.) , and real time gate activity tracking from the map.

Null is not supposed to be solo friendly.

To clarify, the whole point of Concord itself, is that they are your NPC buddies who have your back in case you are attacked.
Game balance dictated you accept some degree of responsibility, resulting in the need to survive until they arrive.

PvP is not limited to ship combat, but it is often associated with it. An equal form of PvP is mining, ratting, and trading goods.
Each of these has us competing against each other, although we may not consider it as PvP in that context.

This would have a trivial impact on high sec, which is where most learning is expected to occur.
The need will be met, once it is identified.

Big smile
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#65 - 2013-07-17 15:44:59 UTC
Aquila Sagitta wrote:
The only reason local or lack there of works in wormhole space is because of the special rules regarding wh space. In particular no cyno jumping/bridging in wh space. Cloaked ships are well balanced. Any covert ships are severely limited in there combat capabilities! You cannot just remove local from k-space and throw in a new ship/mod/skills for decloaking people. ITS NOT THAT SIMPLE. Doing this would make Eve which is already equated too often as a second job even more so. The amount of effort the normal nullbear has to put in is pretty minimal. Nullsec alliances are held together by the hard work of a handful of people that are able enough to herd the cats along to keep coffers filled and fleets running. Now you would make them have to put in much more effort just to rat. The mainstay of many nullsec'ers play time.

How about we reduce local to being just a chat channel?

I get that worm holes do not have local.
The argument that those wanting to remove local should move into a wh, falls flat due to the other differences between the two play areas.

I also acknowledge these differences make wormholes unique. This does not, however, mean that the delayed local mechanic can only work in this environment. It just means wormholes have multiple mechanics designed to isolate them and limit them to what can happen inside.

This is why I advocate a partial change to local as follows:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2369739#post2369739

That thread with this one would work together to restore value to player driven intel, and offer PvE pilots like me a new way to actually compete with each other.
Siri Exotic
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#66 - 2013-07-17 16:16:11 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:

Null is not supposed to be solo friendly.

To clarify, the whole point of Concord itself, is that they are your NPC buddies who have your back in case you are attacked.
Game balance dictated you accept some degree of responsibility, resulting in the need to survive until they arrive.

PvP is not limited to ship combat, but it is often associated with it. An equal form of PvP is mining, ratting, and trading goods.
Each of these has us competing against each other, although we may not consider it as PvP in that context.

This would have a trivial impact on high sec, which is where most learning is expected to occur.
The need will be met, once it is identified.

Big smile



I didn't mention Null,

and twoddle...PvP IS Limited to ship combat, Mining,commerce and ratting are not PvP no matter how you try and quantify it. PvP is plain and simple a player versus another player in a combat scenario.

it would indeed have a trivial impact on highsec. sort of... if you mean relegating half the known eve carebears such as myself to highsec.

Local goes, the game changes and people go with it. It's part of eve and needs to stay.

happy to accept it if it goes, if there are the aforementioned compromises.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#67 - 2013-07-17 16:39:15 UTC
Siri Exotic wrote:
I didn't mention Null,

and twoddle...PvP IS Limited to ship combat, Mining,commerce and ratting are not PvP no matter how you try and quantify it. PvP is plain and simple a player versus another player in a combat scenario.

it would indeed have a trivial impact on highsec. sort of... if you mean relegating half the known eve carebears such as myself to highsec.

Local goes, the game changes and people go with it. It's part of eve and needs to stay.

happy to accept it if it goes, if there are the aforementioned compromises.

And I specified two extreme areas of the game, between which low sec has elements of both.

Now, regarding this thread, it has nothing to do with advocating the removal of local.
It points out what changes could happen AFTER local was either removed, or at the very least no longer displayed cloaked pilots.

I reference a thread that DOES advocate a change to local, however:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2369739#post2369739

And, just for your reference about local:
Here is something that is difficult for many to grasp, but is an important detail that those hunting will not have an advantage because of local being missing.

The advantage will always belong to whoever has sov, simply because the intel channels and patrols supplying them will be a huge advantage.

Those hunting in hostile territory will be on their own, and with no local to artificially tell them where everyone is, chances are they will have no idea.
They can, of course, guess, or do research to learn where people usually hang out, but unless someone spies for them and tips them where to look, they will be effectively blind.

Local is never the friend of PvE. PvE has a far more obvious advantage trading it in for an intel channel while the hunters are blind.
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#68 - 2013-07-17 16:45:52 UTC
I call BS on this ...

Siri Exotic wrote:
and twoddle...PvP IS Limited to ship combat, Mining,commerce and ratting are not PvP no matter how you try and quantify it. PvP is plain and simple a player versus another player in a combat scenario.


In case you had not noticed, they have limited ore in null, and now they made the ice belts limited as well.

It is most definately PvP, since if you don't beat everyone else to the belts, they are used up now.

And no, they only respawn if ALL the ice or ore is mined out. If someone leaves one type, or several only wanting one type, then the respawn doesn't happen.

You weren't fast enuff, you lose.

Now, add to that that I can't sell goods for more than the highest bidder is offering. Oh sure, I might suddenly corner the market, and be the only one selling... if all the other miners quit playing!

Nope, it's a race to get the best prices first, with a limited quantity of ore available.

First come, first serve, and in two different ways.

That is player versus player competition.
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#69 - 2013-07-17 16:47:47 UTC
Kirkwood Ross wrote:
Null would be ruined. Covert hot drops would reign supreme and people wouldn't stick around.

BWahahahahaha... because the hunting ships are all psychic, and mysteriously just "know" when you are in the system with them....

go on, tell me another... LOL
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#70 - 2013-07-17 16:50:02 UTC
Mary Annabelle wrote:
Kirkwood Ross wrote:
Null would be ruined. Covert hot drops would reign supreme and people wouldn't stick around.

BWahahahahaha... because the hunting ships are all psychic, and mysteriously just "know" when you are in the system with them....

go on, tell me another... LOL

The thread title states the conditions for the proposed idea, sigh.....

Ok, maybe he was asking for it, I get sucked into defending other ideas too, even in the wrong threads.

Oops
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#71 - 2013-08-08 11:56:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
As a Cov-Ops Pilot I support Nikk Narrel's idea and I don't think I've ever given so many likes to so few people for so few ideas but this is an awesome idea IF Local was removed.

Well played Sir, well played. Also see the other side to this coin from Nikk: Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#72 - 2013-08-08 16:44:17 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
As a Cov-Ops Pilot I support Nikk Narrel's idea and I don't think I've ever given so many likes to so few people for so few ideas but this is an awesome idea IF Local was removed.

Well played Sir, well played. Also see the other side to this coin from Nikk: Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence

That is something I wanted to bring to these threads.

My experience as a miner, tells me what the realities are from that view. What I can and cannot do. Also the recent changes to available rewards in null hinting the devs were not ignoring this lack of risk on this aspect.

My experiences flying cloaked vessels, specifically frustrated by the lack of ability to hunt targets using local's obvious intel, clearly spelled out what was present and missing from that view.

Then I put a lot of thought into what made sense and balanced both sides of this experience, and made both fun and playable.

I could be very happy playing either side of the fence, with these two ideas in place. Both have created great opportunities for creativity and effort to be rewarded.
Phaade
Surreptitious Technologies
Shadow Ultimatum
#73 - 2013-08-08 17:23:03 UTC
Yolo wrote:
Removing local would server one group only, and its the cloakers.
They can remain cloaked without notification to local and just wtfbbq what they want with a group of x cloaked ships, with no counter.

People in local would stop using to expensive ships because its simply not safe 'enough' to risk it, this would move towards more grouping and kill solo-pvp permanently.
Roaming gangs would be unable to determin if any targets are present in a system and would most likely end up checking all systems, which in the end would be really really really really really boring.


Change local, and next week we read posts about how dead roaming is, no solo targets, people group up and fight back. buhu.


Cloaked ships can be detected by your Directional scanner once they are inside x distance (10% of current scan range, 1 AU, 2 AU, 500m KM, or whatever, maybe even 1000km). They cannot be seen or targetted, but they do appear on your Scan. This way you CAN detect cloaked ships without local, but not until they are almost on top of you. Could be cool.

+1 for removing local. Would make the game nuts
Zurin Arctus
Trauma Ward
#74 - 2013-08-08 17:36:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Zurin Arctus
Ah, this chestnut again. It feels like the same long-winded coterie who apparently can't stand to play EVE with the existing ruleset have been trying to do away with local since I started playing this game.

Hundreds of pages of one-sided rhetoric later, nobody has proposed a viable alternative, or addressed the chilling effects on the economy - and almost every other aspect of gameplay - that simply removing local would have.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#75 - 2013-08-08 17:44:58 UTC
Zurin Arctus wrote:
Ah, this chestnut again. It feels like the same long-winded coterie of people who apparently can't stand to play EVE with the existing ruleset have been trying to do away with local since I started playing this game.

Hundreds of pages of one-sided rhetoric later, nobody has proposed a viable alternative, or addressed the chilling effects on the economy - and almost every other aspect of gameplay - that simply removing local would have.

Actually, this thread is specific to a change only balanced AFTER local is removed.

It presumes the current version of local to no longer exist.

This thread is about a method to hunt cloaked vessels, which as just pointed out, is only balanced AFTER the current version of local is ended.

IF you are looking to see a thread explaining the way I recommend to change local, I would click here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2369739#post2369739

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#76 - 2013-08-08 21:57:16 UTC
Zurin Arctus wrote:
Ah, this chestnut again. It feels like the same long-winded coterie who apparently can't stand to play EVE with the existing ruleset have been trying to do away with local since I started playing this game.

Hundreds of pages of one-sided rhetoric later, nobody has proposed a viable alternative, or addressed the chilling effects on the economy - and almost every other aspect of gameplay - that simply removing local would have.


Might I suggest reading the OP and the subsequent replies BEFORE skipping to add your "Reply" in? Then what you add maybe of relevance and can be addressed by others who will come after. Please be courteous and read the OP is all I'm asking for and you'd have seen that this is assuming that Local AKA The Free Intel Channel has already been removed.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#77 - 2013-08-13 01:06:29 UTC
My biggest issue with this is that you say PvP against cloakers requires intel.....no, it doesn't. You can just activate your anti-cloak system and check every system you fly through hoping to hit something. You don't need to know there's a cloaky there ahead of time.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#78 - 2013-08-13 03:04:25 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
My biggest issue with this is that you say PvP against cloakers requires intel.....no, it doesn't. You can just activate your anti-cloak system and check every system you fly through hoping to hit something. You don't need to know there's a cloaky there ahead of time.

So, you are willing to make an effort, and go system by system proactively scanning for ships.

Keep in mind, these ships are normal difficulty to find, they don't show up more than a regular ship does.

You will either be using dscan, or deploying probes, the same way you would scan for any ship.

Will they make more effort than you, to stay hidden?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#79 - 2013-08-13 04:28:57 UTC
if local does get removed, i would think that intel gathering in general needs to be boosted as well to compensate. possible ways to improve d-scan, modules for getting an idea of who's in station (like cargo scanners).

and if local is removed their should be a way to find cloaked vessels, yes, but i think that being able to decloak any single target on grid is a bit much. i wouldn't mind something that allows you to see them, but the module needs to be limited to a closer range, and possibly work similar to jams with a % chance of successfully decloaking them.

Don't touch gate-cloaks. those are working as intended.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#80 - 2013-08-13 04:32:56 UTC
Zurin Arctus wrote:
Ah, this chestnut again. It feels like the same long-winded coterie who apparently can't stand to play EVE with the existing ruleset have been trying to do away with local since I started playing this game.

Hundreds of pages of one-sided rhetoric later, nobody has proposed a viable alternative, or addressed the chilling effects on the economy - and almost every other aspect of gameplay - that simply removing local would have.

Change is a part of EVE. My favorite "ruleset-that-I-can't-play-with" that was removed is log-off mechanics when they changed them to be affected by aggression timers.

Nothing is born perfect you can try and change and modify it to get as close to perfect as possible