These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...

First post
Author
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#41 - 2013-05-19 14:05:07 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
We could always just remove local and remove cloaking. I'm sure that would be hugely popular with everyone.

I would be ok with this too.
It would remove a lot from the game, however.

My solution simply does this:
With cloaking you use an extra module and skills to hide from sensors and while on grid.
To hunt them, you simply use an extra module and skills to find them.

Both sides are able to benefit spotting the enemy for allies who are not cloaking or able to detect cloaking.

If you removed all local and cloaking, you would create the same panic level among the bear community, since they would have no easy mode tool to be warned with.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#42 - 2013-05-19 14:22:07 UTC
Sure, just make nullsec actually worth doing stuff in or all of the oh so easy kills you want won't happen, because they'll move to highsec to do incursions, or to wormholes where the risk is actually worth the rewards.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#43 - 2013-05-19 14:24:07 UTC
or since the wormholers are so concerned that we're missing out on the fun of no local: I'm concerned that they're missing out on the fun of massive supercap fleets, maybe we should also allow large supercap fleets and large fleets of battleships to jump right into wormholes

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#44 - 2013-05-19 14:57:44 UTC
Andski wrote:
Sure, just make nullsec actually worth doing stuff in or all of the oh so easy kills you want won't happen, because they'll move to highsec to do incursions, or to wormholes where the risk is actually worth the rewards.

Tell the risk averse to hurry back to high sec space already.

It is not in question whether the rewards would change in response to the level of effort and risk. After all, the whole point of L4's and incursions even being comparable to null sec activities pretty plainly spells out how dumbed down null rewards are at this time.

As for the kills, I won't see any if I get my way. I'll be mining in the belts enjoying the higher rewards null will have. And knowing my competition in other areas is getting chewed up.

Win / Win for enlightened self interest PvE pilots everywhere. Specifically those willing to make more effort.
Dring Dingle
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2013-05-19 14:57:58 UTC
OKAYYY

What if... Local communications, was something that the alliance / corp had to set up in nul?

as in its one of those "hub" things / upgrades for a system.

Local chat would still exist... tho there would be a delay of say 5 mins..? before the concord signals emanating from empire space picked your location... (you could still talk in local in be immediately identified..)

UNLESS the corp that held sov upgraded a hub/structure so that it was instant pilot identification. (have to keep it fueled?)

that way those who wanted to evict someone... this would be the first thing that they knock out. (it would have to be a fairly tanky structure, not somthing a group of dreads could insta blap)

The additional maintenance of these systems might stop the huge alliances owning so much space thats practically empty...

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#46 - 2013-05-19 15:04:20 UTC
Dring Dingle wrote:
OKAYYY

What if... Local communications, was something that the alliance / corp had to set up in nul?

as in its one of those "hub" things / upgrades for a system.

Local chat would still exist... tho there would be a delay of say 5 mins..? before the concord signals emanating from empire space picked your location... (you could still talk in local in be immediately identified..)

UNLESS the corp that held sov upgraded a hub/structure so that it was instant pilot identification. (have to keep it fueled?)

that way those who wanted to evict someone... this would be the first thing that they knock out. (it would have to be a fairly tanky structure, not somthing a group of dreads could insta blap)

The additional maintenance of these systems might stop the huge alliances owning so much space thats practically empty...

They are more than welcome to set up something that displays IFF broadcasting ships who are blue.

The possibility that an automated D-Scan could be set up at a POS is another topic, and can be balanced by the same things D-Scan already must deal with: clutter from unknown objects as well as unpiloted ships.
Interesting tactics could include deliberately launching probes into a decoy system so they can be spotted there, and going to the real target system while defenders waste time looking in the wrong place.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#47 - 2013-05-19 15:12:07 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
As for the kills, I won't see any if I get my way. I'll be mining in the belts enjoying the higher rewards null will have. And knowing my competition in other areas is getting chewed up.


Just be careful not to get that industry index too high because the free intel given by the map will scream "people are mining here!"

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#48 - 2013-05-20 20:04:59 UTC
Andski wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
As for the kills, I won't see any if I get my way. I'll be mining in the belts enjoying the higher rewards null will have. And knowing my competition in other areas is getting chewed up.


Just be careful not to get that industry index too high because the free intel given by the map will scream "people are mining here!"

Yeah, they need to downgrade that whole free intel thing.

Who needs scouts in EVE? Local hands out system presence, and the map hands out activity levels.
Maybe they'll interpret the data for us next, and tell us where the targets are like overview beacons too.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#49 - 2013-05-27 16:40:54 UTC
Andski wrote:
Sure, just make nullsec actually worth doing stuff in or all of the oh so easy kills you want won't happen, because they'll move to highsec to do incursions, or to wormholes where the risk is actually worth the rewards.


Not really.

1. In another thread Nikk suggests modifying local so that only when cloaked is a pilot removed from local, and it works both ways. Not only is the cloaked pilot now removed from local the cloaked pilot cannot view local.

2. This thread has a method for hunting cloaked ships. Which can also be used to see if a cloaked ship is simply in system (catching a cloaked ship with an active pilot will likely be tough...as it should be).

So you can obtain even more information than simply relying on local, but now you have to work for it.

I don't see it as being the end of null, but some players would undoubtedly leave. Mostly the ones wanting a system wide cloaking jammer so they can PvE in near perfect security....so f--- them.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#50 - 2013-05-27 16:49:21 UTC
Andski wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
As for the kills, I won't see any if I get my way. I'll be mining in the belts enjoying the higher rewards null will have. And knowing my competition in other areas is getting chewed up.


Just be careful not to get that industry index too high because the free intel given by the map will scream "people are mining here!"


So? There are articles on the very website you link that would see that as a good thing. That information on the map suggests people might be there mining. Just like the information on dotlan jumps/hour or jumps/24hours gives one an idea of how trafficked a system is. And I've sat in fairly well trafficed systems and seen nothing in 2 hours when dotlan indicated I should be seeing 20-30 ships jumping in and out.

Oh and BTW, do something about the horrible ads or whatever on themittani.com that are causing problems with the site loading.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#51 - 2013-05-27 17:30:43 UTC
I appreciate the points being made here.

Something to consider about the map, as referred by Andski.

I am not about to endorse this as appropriate or even good for gameplay, because it makes tracking and detective work something provided by the game.
Where does mining happen, check the map.
Where are ships recently jumping in and out, check the map.

While I would consider this to be a function of intel players, and thus another means for players to compete, it is still not on the same level of effortless that local is.
You at least need to open the map, and deliberately seek the information. And it doesn't guarantee future results, only displaying previous activity.

I still think it makes intel too simple, and big ops lasting more than an hour are vulnerable to exposure too easily since the game reports them like this.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#52 - 2013-06-24 18:16:26 UTC
Baron' Soontir Fel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-06-24 19:21:09 UTC
I shudder to think about what would happen to low-sec without local.


D-Scan spam every 5 seconds.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#54 - 2013-06-24 19:37:55 UTC
Baron' Soontir Fel wrote:
I shudder to think about what would happen to low-sec without local.


D-Scan spam every 5 seconds.

The solution to this is to make intel gathering more useful.

You should read this, in that case, it solves the whole issue you pointed out here.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=112964&find=unread
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2013-06-24 22:10:27 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Sol Weinstein wrote:
Done my research.

So, you want your Reward without any Risk?

And you're correct. It IS sad to see this same local chat idea beaten to death over and over again. It's dead. Stop hitting it!

I hear other games are cool. Please go play them if you are unhappy with this one.

Thank you.

Respect the EVE.

Reward without any risk? You describe the current system well. Non blue shows up in local, all go poof. Zero risk.

This thread is about how the game would be without local, not whether local being removed is good or bad.

And FYI, I listed the reasons why wormholes are unacceptable to me:
I want these aspects not present in a WH:

Live and stable gate connections to other sections of space, and between internal systems.
Outposts, NPC and player built both. This includes the sub category of med clones and jump clones as an additional difference.
The Market. Present in all it's glory, even if only stocked by player activity and some minor NPC items.
Cyno capability, both covert and regular.



The only thing more tired than no-local guys being told to go to wormholes are the no-local guys going off on how they want all the stuff of nullsec that they like and just want tweaks that would suit their particular goals.

"All the good and none of the bad" is even more played out. It is a big reason why no one takes no-local discussion seriously because the no-local crew doesn't want to trade anything for making covops cloak fitted ships over powered or pushing more players into wormholes, highsec Incursions or Faction Warfare farming.

We already have wormholes, so go use them. Don't like the fact that they don't have fixed gates and outposts with markets? To bad. That's the trade off.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#56 - 2013-06-24 22:31:56 UTC
If you had read it, you would have noticed this thread does not ask for local to be removed.

It describes changes that are likely in the event it IS removed, or at least reduced enough to satisfy the balance for the changes described here.
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
The only thing more tired than no-local guys being told to go to wormholes are the no-local guys going off on how they want all the stuff of nullsec that they like and just want tweaks that would suit their particular goals.

Like risk.

The null sec experience is not the high risk area. It's been domesticated, and is now quite tame.

With risk this low, is it any wonder that L4s in high sec are compared to PvE activity in null?

Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
"All the good and none of the bad" is even more played out. It is a big reason why no one takes no-local discussion seriously because the no-local crew doesn't want to trade anything for making covops cloak fitted ships over powered or pushing more players into wormholes, highsec Incursions or Faction Warfare farming.

We already have wormholes, so go use them. Don't like the fact that they don't have fixed gates and outposts with markets? To bad. That's the trade off.

That ship sank a long time ago.

This thread is about being able to hunt cloaked ships.
For that reason, it may not be a good fit for wormholes, since they like their danger with a slice of unknown.
Kirkwood Ross
Golden Profession
#57 - 2013-06-24 22:57:50 UTC
Null would be ruined. Covert hot drops would reign supreme and people wouldn't stick around.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#58 - 2013-06-25 02:02:25 UTC
Kirkwood Ross wrote:
Null would be ruined. Covert hot drops would reign supreme and people wouldn't stick around.

You are clearly lost.

If you want to debate the virtues of removing local, please seek a thread discussing such.

This thread is about hunting cloaked vessels.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#59 - 2013-07-12 19:52:49 UTC
I maintain my view that this is the most balanced means to hunt cloaked vessels, on the condition hunting them at all is considered balanced.

The requirements to hunt cloaked vessels is duplicating the requirements to use cloaked vessels, leaving pilot skill, player skill, and individual quality of gear as the factors affecting this.

Learn the skills, fit the ships correctly, and know what you are doing.
Do this better than your opponent, and you will prevail, regardless which side you are on.
Hileksel Tarmik
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2013-07-17 02:22:26 UTC
This thread, so far, seems to be the closest to the mark on reducing AFK cloaking I have seen. However, I do not think your solution to be completely balanced. I believe the amount of activity a covert pilot displays should be a factor. Moving should give a small bonus. Altering speed, moderate bonus. Turning, and altering course, a large bonus.

While I am strongly against AFK cloaking, active cloakers should be affected to a minimum, as they have a vital role to play in the game. As far as Local Chat is concerned, eliminate AFK cloaking and remove cloaked pilots from chat.

Also, a thought on your idea and warping covert pilots. While scanning, if your skills are high enough compared to the covert pilot, you can see the direction warped from point of origin, but no idea of distance. The higher the scanner's skill, the longer after the covert's warp direction can be seen after the covert warp.