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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...

First post
Author
Sinigr Shadowsong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-03-01 04:49:00 UTC
And just another thread with idea to ruin stealth bombers for fleet warfare.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#22 - 2013-03-01 14:51:48 UTC
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:
And just another thread with idea to ruin stealth bombers for fleet warfare.

LOL... do you honestly believe stealth bombers were ever intended to be limited to fleet warfare?

Because right now, that is all you can do with them. (Not counting the cyno-ready AFK Cloaking bit)

Honestly, unless some confused soul is flying blind and confused, they will be out of your grasp moments after you enter a system. You are either AFK Cloaking or in a fleet, and most want no part of either.
Unless, of course, they are flying something far more dangerous, and already know what you have.

And, as to fleet warfare, they are still perfectly usable. You may have to avoid having them sit in plain sight before attacking anything, but basic tactics can carry that need very well.
Think how nice it will be, knowing that for every pair of eyes watching for cloaked vessels, one less ship can target and fire on your side.
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#23 - 2013-03-01 17:18:39 UTC
i have always been a supporter of nerfing local channel as a way to gather intell.

i do want it more like W-space (only showing if you speak)

keep constilation and region chat as is makeing people have to use them. example could be use constilation chat see target in the constilation? yes! then do a Dscan in each system till you find the target, Profit!!! and teaches newbies the importance of Dscan befor they step foot into Wspace.

as for information gathering most people use private channels or corp/alliance/factionwarchat or other channels
for getting friends to help? again use player created channels or spesific pre defined channels.

and also i feel if local gets nerfed completly it should be a boost to nullsec and lowsec as a whole because of the whole "BACON" thing most nullsec peeps use cause they are lazy and their Dscan-fu is weak.

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]

Jacid
The Upside Down
#24 - 2013-03-01 18:59:56 UTC
I like the idea of no local in null it makes it a much more dynamic environment where null life isn't just a non blue enters system and you warp to station. I think to satisfy those that want local .. have active local chat as an upgrade for either the i hub or a pos structure. This would allow the null bear to have his relative safety but it would be at a price and could be disabled. I would be interested to see on SISI how a no local null sec would play out and would defiantly be willing to be part of any test.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#25 - 2013-03-01 19:49:21 UTC
Jacid wrote:
I like the idea of no local in null it makes it a much more dynamic environment where null life isn't just a non blue enters system and you warp to station. I think to satisfy those that want local .. have active local chat as an upgrade for either the i hub or a pos structure. This would allow the null bear to have his relative safety but it would be at a price and could be disabled. I would be interested to see on SISI how a no local null sec would play out and would defiantly be willing to be part of any test.

I can see that as a possibility, but it would need to be a really soft target.
Nothing you would need a blob against, just a handful of ships cruiser sized at most.

Otherwise, it maintains the status quo effectively in too many locations.
DataRunner Attor
Doomheim
#26 - 2013-03-05 01:57:50 UTC
I have to agree with something here, Local is broken, thus in turn, breaks cloaking, and the idea of null sec where it suppose to be the law is taken in the hands of the players, the ideas of patrols that hunt through each gate in mass, and if a enemy is detected, call to the rest of their fleet members who hot-drop o'clock in, or warp to him. Those days have never seen the light of possibility

Currently, I can mine in solo, by myself in a hulk or in a hulk with a hauler alt, you know why? Cause I have local, as soon as someone pops up I hide in a safe location. You know what else I get? Total immunity to any threat of an attack.

Here what I can't get:

I can't have the thrill of cloaking into a system that's full of reds and disrupting their supply chain by killing off some hulks. They just move as soon as I warp in, and I can't really afford to play chase the rat when they get deeper and deeper to their core systems

I can't get paid as a combat probe merc, why? Cause we have local thats why silly! You already know if there a target there ahead of time, and you know what, so does the other so they dock up.

I can't really get paid to be a merc as a guard, why bother? They have local, so if anyone shows up we will dock right up.

I can't run hit and run war tactics on hostile corps you know why? They warp out as soon as they see the flashing red, then warp in with a bigger fleet cause they now know we are here before we even do anything!

Local is broken, and thus breaks many possible professions out there, may the be ganking, or otherwise.

“Point out to me a person who has been harmed by an AFK cloaker and I will point out a person who has no business playing this game.”

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#27 - 2013-03-05 04:05:18 UTC
DataRunner Attor wrote:
I have to agree with something here, Local is broken, thus in turn, breaks cloaking, and the idea of null sec where it suppose to be the law is taken in the hands of the players, the ideas of patrols that hunt through each gate in mass, and if a enemy is detected, call to the rest of their fleet members who hot-drop o'clock in, or warp to him. Those days have never seen the light of possibility

Currently, I can mine in solo, by myself in a hulk or in a hulk with a hauler alt, you know why? Cause I have local, as soon as someone pops up I hide in a safe location. You know what else I get? Total immunity to any threat of an attack.

Here what I can't get:

I can't have the thrill of cloaking into a system that's full of reds and disrupting their supply chain by killing off some hulks. They just move as soon as I warp in, and I can't really afford to play chase the rat when they get deeper and deeper to their core systems

I can't get paid as a combat probe merc, why? Cause we have local thats why silly! You already know if there a target there ahead of time, and you know what, so does the other so they dock up.

I can't really get paid to be a merc as a guard, why bother? They have local, so if anyone shows up we will dock right up.

I can't run hit and run war tactics on hostile corps you know why? They warp out as soon as they see the flashing red, then warp in with a bigger fleet cause they now know we are here before we even do anything!

Local is broken, and thus breaks many possible professions out there, may the be ganking, or otherwise.

Exactly.

The game mechanic removes all but the simplest options for play.
See enemy, get safe.
Fight enemy, get blob.

Nothing else can be chosen without your opponent cooperating. After all, you can't surprise them....
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-03-19 16:09:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Athena Momaki wrote:
I agree with taking out local. Local should be gone in all systems unless you talk. just like in WH. It would open a whole new game play.

But:
Being about to decloak a ship if it is on grid makes that ship way over powered.

How about a mod for "destroyers" that sends out a burst for 20k. Kinda like pinging. It doesn't decloak or damage the ship, but it does flash an outline of then ship in space. If the ship is moving one ping isn't going to help you. You will need to work with others to hunt it down and find it. If the guy was AFK and sitting still than it is their loss.

To everyone who echos the classic: remove local, just like whs, I must add, Are you willing to lose cyno and supers, just like whs? Just asking. Are you willing to have all stargates dissappear, just like whs? Since you like whs so much, does all of known space also have to be, just like whs, too?

"Just like whs" does not justify "remove local." Nor does "Wah, the prey runs away when they see me in local. wah wah wah." Turn on your two brain cells, and get more clever at catching your next kill.

Edit: And for those of you pvpers with your two brain cells on, consider the following: if you make it harder for the targets to see who is in local and easier to be caught/surprised, they will come out less. Your days of waiting in a system for the locals to become comfortable with your presence in local will turn into much longer wait times. Instead of hiding in the station, they will be hiding in high sec and then you will whine that Concord is protecting them. The trick is not to increase the risk to the target; that risk is already very high, but your brain cells are struggling with how to exploit it. The trick is to decrease the risk, get them out and PLAYING, and then turn on your own two brain cells to figure out how to get the kills with tactics/strategy. Or stop focusing only on the easy kills and also fight the hardened pvp targets who actually fit up with pvp fits to fight you.

It's like "remove local" = "pvpers whining" about no easy kills. Sad.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#29 - 2013-03-19 16:39:07 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
Athena Momaki wrote:
I agree with taking out local. Local should be gone in all systems unless you talk. just like in WH. It would open a whole new game play.

But:
Being about to decloak a ship if it is on grid makes that ship way over powered.

How about a mod for "destroyers" that sends out a burst for 20k. Kinda like pinging. It doesn't decloak or damage the ship, but it does flash an outline of then ship in space. If the ship is moving one ping isn't going to help you. You will need to work with others to hunt it down and find it. If the guy was AFK and sitting still than it is their loss.

To everyone who echos the classic: remove local, just like whs, I must add, Are you willing to lose cyno and supers, just like whs? Just asking. Are you willing to have all stargates dissappear, just like whs? Since you like whs so much, does all of known space also have to be, just like whs, too?

"Just like whs" does not justify "remove local." Nor does "Wah, the prey runs away when they see me in local. wah wah wah." Turn on your two brain cells, and get more clever at catching your next kill.

The comparison to wormhole space, in the context used, was specific to the operation of local chat. No other aspect of wormhole space was referenced, much less advocated for use in other space types.

As for turning on brain cells to catch prey using local chat, that is a false potential.
An aligned PvE ship has to only see you present in local, which happens as soon as you enter the system by any means.
They can then hit warp, which will instantly put them into warp to a safe spot if they planned properly.

Your premise makes the assumption that they will have done something foolish, such as gone to an obvious outpost listed on the overview. Unless they do something along those lines, or equally foolish, you have no meaningful chance to intercept them.
Andy Landen wrote:
Edit: And for those of you pvpers with your two brain cells on, consider the following: if you make it harder for the targets to see who is in local and easier to be caught/surprised, they will come out less. Your days of waiting in a system for the locals to become comfortable with your presence in local will turn into much longer wait times. Instead of hiding in the station, they will be hiding in high sec and then you will whine that Concord is protecting them. The trick is not to increase the risk to the target; that risk is already very high, but your brain cells are struggling with how to exploit it. The trick is to decrease the risk, get them out and PLAYING, and then turn on your own two brain cells to figure out how to get the kills with tactics/strategy. Or stop focusing only on the easy kills and also fight the hardened pvp targets who actually fit up with pvp fits to fight you.

It's like "remove local" = "pvpers whining" about no easy kills. Sad.

Please, do send them packing back to High Sec. It is the intended place for the risk averse style they use.

Do not delay if at all possible. They were never playing anything but the high sec version of EVE in any case, so it's not like we would ever miss them. Not much PvP happens when they can reliably avoid it by choice, which is truly dumbing down both rewards as well as gameplay.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#30 - 2013-03-19 17:11:10 UTC
I'm still completely against the ability to hunt cloaked ships even if local was removed.

Basing this on how great the mechanics are in wormhole space, basically. Obviously it's slightly different with the fixed routes + cynos in null, but the simplistic "well now you can find the cloaked ships!" idea doesn't sit right with me.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#31 - 2013-03-19 17:16:33 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
I'm still completely against the ability to hunt cloaked ships even if local was removed.

Basing this on how great the mechanics are in wormhole space, basically. Obviously it's slightly different with the fixed routes + cynos in null, but the simplistic "well now you can find the cloaked ships!" idea doesn't sit right with me.

I would not suggest changing wormhole space.

That place has too many unique rules already, and if they have a happy balance that is free of complaints, I say let them be.
The Target painter module can be blocked from functioning there.

As to null and low sec, a dynamic exists already that wormholes will never be affected by. They have a stalemate between pilots able to get safe thanks to local, and blob proof cloaked pilots they can't get rid of.

As the problem does not relate to WH space, the solution has no place in it either.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#32 - 2013-04-11 02:40:08 UTC
With so many ideas flying around, this seemed due to be viewed once again.
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#33 - 2013-04-30 20:03:49 UTC
Mining upgrade: Higher rewards in exchange for actual effort.

Actual effort being getting your own intel, and competing to do it better than the dude hunting you.
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-05-12 08:29:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Gerrick Palivorn
Effort and rewards should go hand in hand, local is zero effort intel so there are few intended mechanics to hunt cloaking vessels. (the only one that comes to mind is proximity)

Should intel become more effort to attain, so should the ability to hunt vessels that bypass typical intel gathering techniques.

Nikk as always excellent thread.

MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.  -Garresh-

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#35 - 2013-05-12 09:26:01 UTC
Seranova Farreach wrote:
i have always been a supporter of nerfing local channel as a way to gather intell.

i do want it more like W-space (only showing if you speak)

keep constilation and region chat as is makeing people have to use them. example could be use constilation chat see target in the constilation? yes! then do a Dscan in each system till you find the target, Profit!!! and teaches newbies the importance of Dscan befor they step foot into Wspace.

as for information gathering most people use private channels or corp/alliance/factionwarchat or other channels
for getting friends to help? again use player created channels or spesific pre defined channels.

and also i feel if local gets nerfed completly it should be a boost to nullsec and lowsec as a whole because of the whole "BACON" thing most nullsec peeps use cause they are lazy and their Dscan-fu is weak.



I strongly support the idea of delayed local and instant constellation chat, would still give PvE oriented players time to dock up when a hostile fleet comes into the constellation (Especially useful for all those bots that would else maybe dock up to late), and simultaniously reduce the need for cloakies to 1 per constellation to keep everything docked up!
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#36 - 2013-05-12 09:31:05 UTC
So in the years of campaigning to remove local, has anyone discussed what to replace it with? How to improve dscan?

If so, I'm not aware of what's been suggested already. If not, that's where the discussion needs to go, because it's a prerequisite. The reasons why are correctly noted by the OP.

Brain fart, as of 5 seconds ago: highslot modules that improve dscan. Range, accuracy, detecting cloaked ships (on dscan only-perhaps not revealing ship class either), etc. They should penalize some combat aspect of the ship that fits them in return. Thoughts?
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2013-05-19 04:47:33 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
I'm still completely against the ability to hunt cloaked ships even if local was removed.

Basing this on how great the mechanics are in wormhole space, basically. Obviously it's slightly different with the fixed routes + cynos in null, but the simplistic "well now you can find the cloaked ships!" idea doesn't sit right with me.


What is the difference between a ship docked in a station and a ship in a safe spot cloaked?

And what is the same?

There are many things you should compare there, but the main likeness is the safety level. Safety level carebear.
The main difference, intel. Intel level: greater than local. Being cloaked you can see whos around you, you can dscan, you can probe scan, you can warp in a covert ops ship.

Cloakers complain about the intel in local, but cloakers get that and everything else while being even more risk adverse and in enemy territory!!!!

If you want to be 100% risk free dock up, if you want to be in space cloaked or not then accept the risks.

ITT: good ideas and cloakbears that don't wanna get blowed up
Dr Ted Kaper
o Lodestar o
#38 - 2013-05-19 04:53:59 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
So what the hell its wrong with cloaked ships?


in wormholes people deal with and against cloaky ships all the time without local and no one complains.

that stuff about cloaky nerfs its getting annoying seriously...


Agreed
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#39 - 2013-05-19 04:59:33 UTC
You're better off in the other suggestion. This one is obviously less refined.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#40 - 2013-05-19 06:19:39 UTC
We could always just remove local and remove cloaking. I'm sure that would be hugely popular with everyone.