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EXPLOIT: Wardecs, remote repairs and limited engagement timer
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Danks
Fat Angry Toe Tappin Inbreds
#81 - 2013-02-25 11:42:24 UTC
Nice to see a thread with a happy ending for a change.
Spurty
#82 - 2013-02-25 12:45:10 UTC
Adriel Malakai wrote:


The problem with this logic is that the dude from Corp A doesn't need to shoot back, as concord will take care of the offender. The only reason to shoot back is to get on the kill mail.



Your claim is that NO ONE *should* shoot -5 (KILL ON SITE) people in empire.

Hell of a premise you have going there.

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Zilero
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2013-02-25 18:15:02 UTC
FYI, the ship lost to this "feature" was a destroyer, nothing more - so the "whining about the loss" is not the issue here (heck, I lose approximately 2-3 dessies a day :D).

The issue is that an "automated" feature supplied by CCP can give you a limited engagement timer which can then be "exploited" and was in this instance "exploited". Whether or not its OK to use it like this is up to CCP.

TBH, yes, having drones auto aggro is not always a smart thing, but it has its uses - as things stand now, having your drones on auto aggro in hisec is a big no no.... and might have to be looked at by CCP (unless they decide this is perfectly legit, in which case i'll bring out the alts).
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#84 - 2013-02-25 19:21:21 UTC
Spurty wrote:
Adriel Malakai wrote:


The problem with this logic is that the dude from Corp A doesn't need to shoot back, as concord will take care of the offender. The only reason to shoot back is to get on the kill mail.



Your claim is that NO ONE *should* shoot -5 (KILL ON SITE) people in empire.

Hell of a premise you have going there.


Not at all - we shoot and kill them all the time, and deal with the consequences of our logi going suspect.

My point is that you don't have to shoot those people and put your logi in the situation of going suspect. If you want to shoot those people, then you have zero room to ***** about the consequences of your actions.
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#85 - 2013-02-25 19:24:35 UTC
Zilero wrote:
FYI, the ship lost to this "feature" was a destroyer, nothing more - so the "whining about the loss" is not the issue here (heck, I lose approximately 2-3 dessies a day :D).

The issue is that an "automated" feature supplied by CCP can give you a limited engagement timer which can then be "exploited" and was in this instance "exploited". Whether or not its OK to use it like this is up to CCP.

TBH, yes, having drones auto aggro is not always a smart thing, but it has its uses - as things stand now, having your drones on auto aggro in hisec is a big no no.... and might have to be looked at by CCP (unless they decide this is perfectly legit, in which case i'll bring out the alts).



I completely agree that having drones on auto aggro is hugely useful (particularly if they have ECM on the field), and I personally have them set to that. The difference is that I only put out my drones when I fully plan to use them and do so knowing I'll likely pick up timers for it.

From what I saw yesterday on the 4-4 undock, you guys had Garde IIs chilling so you could put lots of dps down on people in a hurry. In that instance, you probably should set your drones to passive if you don't want the LEs/weapons timers from criminals.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#86 - 2013-02-25 19:31:39 UTC
So what if the RR ship also attacks the criminal, gets in on the LE, and then reps the first ship? Does that still result in a Suspect flag?

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#87 - 2013-02-25 19:34:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Adriel Malakai
De'Veldrin wrote:
So what if the RR ship also attacks the criminal, gets in on the LE, and then reps the first ship? Does that still result in a Suspect flag?


That is correct. The way Crimewatch 2.0 works, is that if anyone remotely assists (remote sebo, projected eccm, RR, etc) another player who:

A) Has a suspect timer
B) Is in a Limited Engagement
C) Is in a different corp and alliance than the RR ship, is at war, and has a PVP flag
D) Is an outlaw (in HS)

will gain a suspect flag (if set yellow), regardless of their own flagging at the time of rep.

If the RR assists someone who is set criminal, the RR ship will gain a criminal flag.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#88 - 2013-02-25 19:54:46 UTC  |  Edited by: De'Veldrin
Adriel Malakai wrote:
De'Veldrin wrote:
So what if the RR ship also attacks the criminal, gets in on the LE, and then reps the first ship? Does that still result in a Suspect flag?


That is correct. The way Crimewatch 2.0 works, is that if anyone remotely assists (remote sebo, projected eccm, RR, etc) another player who:

A) Has a suspect timer
B) Is in a Limited Engagement
C) Is in a different corp and alliance than the RR ship, is at war, and has a PVP flag
D) Is an outlaw (in HS)

will gain a suspect flag (if set yellow), regardless of their own flagging at the time of rep.

If the RR assists someone who is set criminal, the RR ship will gain a criminal flag.


Ok, that makes sense. Thanks

Follow-up question - in theory then, the safety should prevent you from starting your RR if that activity will gain you a suspect flag (assuming it's set green). Right? (Apologies, if that's what you meant by if set yellow in your post).

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2013-02-25 20:07:33 UTC
De'Veldrin wrote:
Follow-up question - in theory then, the safety should prevent you from starting your RR if that activity will gain you a suspect flag (assuming it's set green). Right?
Yes, it will. The new safety mechanism actually works. It even prevents the use of smartbombs in empire space if it's not set to red.

I still feel that if someone reps someone with a limited engagement, they should get only a limited engagement. If it gives them only the time remaining on the limited engagement of the person they rep, there would be no problem. No string of never-ending engagements, nobody abusing the ability to rep friends, nothing.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#90 - 2013-02-25 20:11:04 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I still feel that if someone reps someone with a limited engagement, they should get only a limited engagement. If it gives them only the time remaining on the limited engagement of the person they rep, there would be no problem. No string of never-ending engagements, nobody abusing the ability to rep friends, nothing.


Like I said earlier, there were several of us arguing for this, but CCP doesn't want it because they're trying to get away from the "spider-web of individual flagging." Basically, it won't happen because it was supposedly confusing.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2013-02-25 20:17:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Adriel Malakai wrote:
Like I said earlier, there were several of us arguing for this, but CCP doesn't want it because they're trying to get away from the "spider-web of individual flagging." Basically, it won't happen because it was supposedly confusing.
But if remote reps simply gain the LE flag and don't add time to it, they won't add to the "spider web" significantly other than that they'll allow people to defend themselves instead of allowing the fight to be won by the side who didn't bring rep ships with the very intention of exploiting the current flagging system.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#92 - 2013-02-25 20:18:06 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Adriel Malakai wrote:
De'Veldrin wrote:
So what if the RR ship also attacks the criminal, gets in on the LE, and then reps the first ship? Does that still result in a Suspect flag?


That is correct. The way Crimewatch 2.0 works, is that if anyone remotely assists (remote sebo, projected eccm, RR, etc) another player who:

A) Has a suspect timer
B) Is in a Limited Engagement
C) Is in a different corp and alliance than the RR ship, is at war, and has a PVP flag
D) Is an outlaw (in HS)

will gain a suspect flag (if set yellow), regardless of their own flagging at the time of rep.

If the RR assists someone who is set criminal, the RR ship will gain a criminal flag.

What? No.
Logi inherits the flag of the person they're assisting. They only get a suspect timer if the person they're assisting is suspect, they get LE if the person they're engaging has LE, they get a weapons flag if the person they're engaging has a weapons flag, etc.

With the exception of outlaw, which isn't strictly a flag. I believe aiding outlaws gets you a suspect flag.

In any case if you're logi and worried about going suspect in HS, keep your safety set to green. Problem solved.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2013-02-25 20:20:55 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
What? No.
Logi inherits the flag of the person they're assisting. They only get a suspect timer if the person they're assisting is suspect, they get LE if the person they're engaging has LE, they get a weapons flag if the person they're engaging has a weapons flag, etc.

With the exception of outlaw, which isn't strictly a flag. I believe aiding outlaws gets you a suspect flag.

In any case if you're logi and worried about going suspect in HS, keep your safety set to green. Problem solved.
That's how it should be, and I hope that's how it is.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#94 - 2013-02-25 20:21:15 UTC
At least, last I read that's how that was supposed to work.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#95 - 2013-02-25 20:24:51 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
What? No.
Logi inherits the flag of the person they're assisting. They only get a suspect timer if the person they're assisting is suspect, they get LE if the person they're engaging has LE, they get a weapons flag if the person they're engaging has a weapons flag, etc.

With the exception of outlaw, which isn't strictly a flag. I believe aiding outlaws gets you a suspect flag.


You are incorrect, the flagging works as I stated above - trust me, I use and abuse the **** out of this on a daily basis.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#96 - 2013-02-25 20:24:52 UTC
Nevermind, I was wrong, assisting someone with LE does give you a suspect flag.
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73443

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2013-02-25 20:27:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Adriel Malakai wrote:
De'Veldrin wrote:
So what if the RR ship also attacks the criminal, gets in on the LE, and then reps the first ship? Does that still result in a Suspect flag?


That is correct. The way Crimewatch 2.0 works, is that if anyone remotely assists (remote sebo, projected eccm, RR, etc) another player who:

A) Has a suspect timer
B) Is in a Limited Engagement
C) Is in a different corp and alliance than the RR ship, is at war, and has a PVP flag
D) Is an outlaw (in HS)

will gain a suspect flag (if set yellow), regardless of their own flagging at the time of rep.

If the RR assists someone who is set criminal, the RR ship will gain a criminal flag.

What? No.
Logi inherits the flag of the person they're assisting. They only get a suspect timer if the person they're assisting is suspect, they get LE if the person they're engaging has LE, they get a weapons flag if the person they're engaging has a weapons flag, etc.

With the exception of outlaw, which isn't strictly a flag. I believe aiding outlaws gets you a suspect flag.

In any case if you're logi and worried about going suspect in HS, keep your safety set to green. Problem solved.


Incorrect... Logi will go suspect as Adriel explained.

As for the OP.

Since the Logi was not engaged by the pirates in low sec but assisted people that had a limited engagement against them. He became suspect as well.

Interfere with a fight to assist and you can be shot buy everybody. It is a good thing. Yes there has been a bug here and there like the issue about Logi not going suspect under certain circumstances when it should have, but yours was not a bug.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Zilero
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2013-02-25 21:52:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Zilero
Adriel Malakai wrote:

I completely agree that having drones on auto aggro is hugely useful (particularly if they have ECM on the field), and I personally have them set to that. The difference is that I only put out my drones when I fully plan to use them and do so knowing I'll likely pick up timers for it.

From what I saw yesterday on the 4-4 undock, you guys had Garde IIs chilling so you could put lots of dps down on people in a hurry. In that instance, you probably should set your drones to passive if you don't want the LEs/weapons timers from criminals.


I'm was aware of the dangers when doing it. What I did not suspect was that someone went and "abused" it in order to get a kill (on a dessie no less lol).

I think I've come to the conclusion that the real problem here is drones auto aggroing something that gives you an engagement timer (it being suspect or LE). Perhaps CCP should look into drones not engaging targets that would give you a flag when safety is set to green, whereas they do that when safety are set yellow (and red is then reserved for "going full ******" / willfully being concorded in hisec).
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#99 - 2013-02-25 22:12:08 UTC
Zilero wrote:
I'm was aware of the dangers when doing it. What I did not suspect was that someone went and "abused" it in order to get a kill (on a dessie no less lol).

I think I've come to the conclusion that the real problem here is drones auto aggroing something that gives you an engagement timer (it being suspect or LE). Perhaps CCP should look into drones not engaging targets that would give you a flag when safety is set to green, whereas they do that when safety are set yellow (and red is then reserved for "going full ******" / willfully being concorded in hisec).


The problem with that is that gaining a LE is a legal action, and can thus be done while green. Adding even more safety features into HS is not a good thing.
Solitary Pal
The Filthy Few
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#100 - 2013-02-25 23:22:46 UTC
Whores in Space are clearly terrible at Eve and have no idea how to use reps. That is all.

I have a monocle therefore my opinion matters more than yours.