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Tracking Disruption (TD) is it as bad in PVP as it currently is in PVE?
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MadMuppet

Critical Mass Inc

Likes received: 1,300

#1 - 2013-02-22 03:40:41 UTC | Edited by: MadMuppet

I am a casual player and most of my PVP is in the market (sorry), but I have to ask, is TD now as much of an ultimate 'i win button' in PVP as it current is for NPCs in PVE? I just spent over an hour in a Machariel with 3TE2s and 4 Gyro2s, trying to do 'The blockade lt L4' ,trying to kill cruisers at 3000m (using kep at distance to make the transversal damn near zero) with 800mm AC IIs and all my gunnery skills are 4 or 5 and I couldn't hit anything because of tracking disruption. Hell, Sgt Fritz could have donned a spacesuit, grabbed a hammer, and hung off the bow of the ship and done more damage than my guns were doing.

So, I ask, if I mount TDs on an industrial and do low/null trading, will I be as immune to damage CCP?

EDIT: Wrong mission name. The Blockade

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"If you are part of the problem, you will be nerfed." -MadMuppet

Aren Madigan

The Scope

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 672

#2 - 2013-02-22 03:42:59 UTC

MadMuppet wrote:

I am a casual player and most of my PVP is in the market (sorry), but I have to ask, is TD now as much of an ultimate 'i win button' in PVP as it current is for NPCs in PVE? I just spent over an hour in a Machariel with 3TE2s and 4 Gyro2s, trying to do 'The assault L4' ,trying to kill cruisers at 3000m (using kep at distance to make the transversal damn near zero) with 800mm AC IIs and all my gunnery skills are 4 or 5 and I couldn't hit anything because of tracking disruption. Hell, Sgt Fritz could have donned a spacesuit, grabbed a hammer, and hung off the bow of the ship and done more damage than my guns were doing.

So, I ask, if I mount TDs on an industrial and do low/null trading, will I be as immune to damage CCP?

Drone boat pilots would likely kick your ass, as will missile boats. I think regular guns are screwed though without a module to counter the TD, but don't take my word on that.

MadMuppet

Critical Mass Inc

Likes received: 1,300

#3 - 2013-02-22 03:47:04 UTC

Well, I did have five Hobgoblin IIs helping me try to kill a single cruiser, but they couldn't get it in to armor (again, all 4/5 skills). Something is majorly borked with NPC TDs right now, even when I supposedly only had 'two' TDs on me I couldn't hit anything.

This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD.

"If you are part of the problem, you will be nerfed." -MadMuppet

Imperial Margarine 2,206
Karl Hobb Imperial Margarine Likes received: 2,206	#4 - 2013-02-22 03:52:30 UTC \| Edited by: Karl Hobb 1 MadMuppet wrote: So, I ask, if I mount TDs on an industrial and do low/null trading, will I be as immune to damage CCP? E: Oh, that was satirical. You're whining about PVE content. Carry on... A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.

Aren Madigan

The Scope

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 672

#5 - 2013-02-22 04:03:29 UTC

MadMuppet wrote:

Yeeeah... Hobs aren't the greats against certain elite cruisers... I'm assuming its elite since it was named. I mean, light drones ARE built more for taking out frigate sized targets. And yeah, two TDs at once are pretty lethal and can shut out someone's firepower almost completely if I'm not mistaken. Against gunners at least. Again, missiles and drone focused ships pretty much ignore it.

Dinsdale Pirannha

Pirannha Corp

Likes received: 3,519

#6 - 2013-02-22 04:05:26 UTC

MadMuppet wrote:

It would be very useful for CCP to release detailed data on PvE income, by sec status and type, post and pre PvE nerf in December.
It is also very enlightening that CCP refuses to do so.

ACE McFACE

Dirt 'n' Glitter

Local Is Primary

Likes received: 1,863

#7 - 2013-02-22 04:11:07 UTC

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

MadMuppet wrote:

It would be very useful for CCP to release detailed data on PvE income, by sec status and type, post and pre PvE nerf in December.
It is also very enlightening that CCP refuses to do so.

Well now that Dinsdale has posted the thread is going to be filled with null-sec favoritism conspiracies and tinfoil.

Now, more than ever, we need a dislike button.

MadMuppet

Critical Mass Inc

Likes received: 1,300

#8 - 2013-02-22 15:47:38 UTC

Aren Madigan wrote:

MadMuppet wrote:

True, but the Acolytes and Warriors I had didn't do any better either. I worked at this for over an hour. I burned out to kite at 60km and couldn't hit them, I orbited and couldn't hit them, I closed to optimal matching bearing and speed and still couldn't hit them. I went through about 4000 rounds of ammo and couldn't hit them. Eventually I tried to pop a few of the BS ships (again, closing to about 3000m-5000m before I could hit them) and ended up giving up when some more frigates spawned because I didn't want to get scrammed and popped.

So I made about 2million isk an hour and took a 4.1% standing hit when I was finished. LOL

This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD.

"If you are part of the problem, you will be nerfed." -MadMuppet

Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 22
archon o'v Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire Likes received: 22	#9 - 2013-02-22 15:59:39 UTC 1 frigate > pve battleships, true story


MadMuppet Critical Mass Inc Likes received: 1,300	#10 - 2013-02-22 16:12:21 UTC 1 archon o'v wrote: frigate > pve battleships, true story Yep, when you can't hit anything they sure as hell are. This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD. "If you are part of the problem, you will be nerfed." -MadMuppet

Whitehound

Likes received: 2,906

#11 - 2013-02-22 16:47:50 UTC | Edited by: Whitehound

MadMuppet wrote:

I am a casual player and most of my PVP is in the market (sorry), but I have to ask, is TD now as much of an ultimate 'i win button' in PVP as it current is for NPCs in PVE? I just spent over an hour in a Machariel with 3TE2s and 4 Gyro2s, trying to do 'The assault L4' ,trying to kill cruisers at 3000m (using kep at distance to make the transversal damn near zero) with 800mm AC IIs and all my gunnery skills are 4 or 5 and I couldn't hit anything because of tracking disruption. Hell, Sgt Fritz could have donned a spacesuit, grabbed a hammer, and hung off the bow of the ship and done more damage than my guns were doing.

So, I ask, if I mount TDs on an industrial and do low/null trading, will I be as immune to damage CCP?

Keep At Range only works when the targets are about as your size and speed (or that are bigger and slower).

Use a web and a target painter for the smaller ships, because even with Keep At Range will these fly circles around you. The signature radius then plays just as an important role for the hit'n'miss chance as the tracking. See here.

Go into your overview and turn on the column for Angular Velocity. The values you see there are directly comparable to your weapons' tracking speed. If a target's angular velocity is higher than your tracking speed will you not hit it and even when it seems to be just about right does the difference in signature radii of your target and your weapon still determine your success.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Decaying Rocky Odious Non Evil Stupid Inane Nobody Looking for Trouble 463
destiny2 Decaying Rocky Odious Non Evil Stupid Inane Nobody Looking for Trouble Likes received: 463	#12 - 2013-02-22 18:04:13 UTC 1 theirs alot of people who have had alot of luck with td's in fights, altho your going to automatically have bad luck when comeing across a missile boat but thats comon sense,

MadMuppet

Critical Mass Inc

Likes received: 1,300

#13 - 2013-02-22 18:25:31 UTC

Whitehound wrote:

MadMuppet wrote:

I am a casual player and most of my PVP is in the market (sorry), but I have to ask, is TD now as much of an ultimate 'i win button' in PVP as it current is for NPCs in PVE? I just spent over an hour in a Machariel with 3TE2s and 4 Gyro2s, trying to do 'The assault L4' ,trying to kill cruisers at 3000m (using kep at distance to make the transversal damn near zero) with 800mm AC IIs and all my gunnery skills are 4 or 5 and I couldn't hit anything because of tracking disruption. Hell, Sgt Fritz could have donned a spacesuit, grabbed a hammer, and hung off the bow of the ship and done more damage than my guns were doing.

So, I ask, if I mount TDs on an industrial and do low/null trading, will I be as immune to damage CCP?

I understand that, and when i am using 'keep at range' it is well inside what the target ship is considering 'safe distance' and it runs away. The NPC cruisers don't want to be at 3000m so they fly away from me (they want to kite out beyond 8000m), I am faster then they are, but using 'keep at range adjusts my speed to match theirs. NPC ships are pretty dumb, so they run away in a straight line, I sit right behind them at 3000m, same speed, same heading, I go through an entire magazine on seven guns with drones assisting and we can't bring them down because my tracking is that bad? This is the point I am trying to get across.

http://i.imgur.com/KCBtIPv.jpg
^^^ This was taken as I was slowing behind the cruiser. At this point we both flew in a straight line, 3000m apart, for an entire magazine's worth of ammo from the guns.

Flip side, next magazine, I fly away and try to kite the same ship, I outrun him and he chases me in a straight line, another magazine of ammo and he doesn't go down (I can't hit him).

This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD.

"If you are part of the problem, you will be nerfed." -MadMuppet

Whitehound

Likes received: 2,906

#14 - 2013-02-22 18:51:02 UTC

MadMuppet wrote:

http://i.imgur.com/KCBtIPv.jpg
^^^ This was taken as I was slowing behind the cruiser. At this point we both flew in a straight line, 3000m apart, for an entire magazine's worth of ammo from the guns.

Flip side, next magazine, I fly away and try to kite the same ship, I outrun him and he chases me in a straight line, another magazine of ammo and he doesn't go down (I can't hit him).

Seems you have done something wrong there, but it is too late now anyway.

Do as I say and fit a web and a TP next time you do this mission. I use a Kronos with changing fittings depending on the mission. When the standard fitting of AB+railguns does not work do I use MWD+blasters+90% web+TP. Nothing ever got away from this.

One thing I have just noticed is that you say this is The Assault, L4 but there is a Sansha in your picture. Is there now a Sansha version of this mission?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

MadMuppet

Critical Mass Inc

Likes received: 1,300

#15 - 2013-02-22 19:06:08 UTC

Whitehound wrote:

MadMuppet wrote:

DOH... Rage typo, sorry. This was 'The Blockade', not the assault.

This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD.

"If you are part of the problem, you will be nerfed." -MadMuppet

Google Voices

Doomheim

Likes received: 165

#16 - 2013-02-22 19:55:15 UTC

MadMuppet wrote:

Your flying a mach and you can't dictate range? Shocked

Hint...you pop the frigs and cruisers before they ever get in close...

"Fozzie could not comment on when this issue would be resolved and stated that “one day Veritas will come up to me and say ‘hey I fixed off-grid boosting’”, but he had no idea on a potential timeframe for this sort of miracle."

MadMuppet

Critical Mass Inc

Likes received: 1,300

#17 - 2013-02-22 21:29:07 UTC

Google Voices wrote:

MadMuppet wrote:

Your flying a mach and you can't dictate range? Shocked

Hint...you pop the frigs and cruisers before they ever get in close...

I can dictate any range I want, that isn't the problem. The tracking disruption is the problem. The first wave I popped like zits, but the TD cruisers made it impossible to kill anything else, regardless of range.

This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD.

"If you are part of the problem, you will be nerfed." -MadMuppet

Google Voices

Doomheim

Likes received: 165

#18 - 2013-02-22 21:51:22 UTC

MadMuppet wrote:

Google Voices wrote:

MadMuppet wrote:

Your flying a mach and you can't dictate range? Shocked

Hint...you pop the frigs and cruisers before they ever get in close...

The discription you give is "I can't kill cruisers at 3000 meters..."

If your even trying to track a cruiser at 3k range, when tracking disrupted, your flying it wrong.
If your saying you can't even hit them at 30k, then there is an issue...
It wouldn't surprise me that CCP jacked something else up, but expecting a BS with large guns to hit anything except another BS at that range while being tracking disrupted is just unrealistic.

Bird Law LLP Bird Law LLP Alliance 251
Mire Stoude Bird Law LLP Bird Law LLP Alliance Likes received: 251	#19 - 2013-02-22 21:53:25 UTC 2 Yes, tracking disruptors are the beloved mid slot item to any t1 frigate. When they disrupt the tracking of missiles I will also put them on every ship I throw into battle.

Republic University Minmatar Republic 1,392
Vera Algaert Republic University Minmatar Republic Likes received: 1,392	#20 - 2013-02-22 21:55:45 UTC 1 they are very good in small scale pvp - mostly because almost nobody carries Drop. .