EVE General Discussion

Was more his specific issue I was referring to. Of course alone it wouldn't be good enough, but his issue that he seems to think ruins any other possibility is not particularly hard to fix.

So we create station with no running cost just like the high sec stations close to everywhere in null with zome zone packing over 500 lines in a single system? Thats how much lines you would add? And they have to be "equivalent" lines so no POS requirment or anything. Just present there free to be used.



This is important to see. More lines indeed does not fix the whole problem at all.

If you do not take the harder setup/security and hauling requirement into account to balanbce stuff, nothign worthwhile will be done. People will still produce in high sec because it will still be plain better to do so.

No, they are integral parts of the problem and they will not go away until similar costs are imposed on high. It's those things that make it so much better to produce in highsec, and no amount of slots will solve that, nor will increased speed (since that's only a slot multiplier anyway so it's the exact same thing).

But it's nice to see that you've abandoned the idea that you can buff null through the use of less resources…

Yes, balancing around how the game is played is a bad idea.

You still don't get it, do you? It's a simple cost/benefit analysis: which costs more? An additional character manufacturing for free at normal speeds or using expensive slots (and expensive logistics (and a lot more work)) at double speed? Given the availability and much lower cost of highsec slots, the former will always be the case. This shows us that the infinite-availability/zero-cost combo is directly harmful to the game. There is no way to compete against that, and there is no way to buff your way out of it without going into negative-cost territory (which is still a very bad idea).

…because the only benefit that can outweigh it is to have negative costs or something equally game-breaking.

Oh, and fundamentally, the basic question remains: what's so bad about having it balanced the same across all sectors of space? Why do you so hate the idea of having everyone on equal footing?

Yeeeah, not taking this discussion seriously anymore. Sorry, but your issue is with alt accounts, not high sec. Your one account is never going to compete with multiple, nor should it and reducing the ability of an individual account in an area just because people have multiple makes it that much harder for people to get a start. If you balanced miners around people having 20 mining accounts, only the obscenely rich people in the real world would be able to be effective. The people who could afford 20 monthly fees. That's not a good option, at all. Any thought that takes this kind of thought process into consideration isn't even worth looking at because you're pretty much telling the people with fewer accounts that they can't do jack unless they want to play your way.

I also never said you could buff null through use of less resources. Nothing I said was different from what I said before, it just seems I had to put it in less words to get the point across. As for the rest... toss me some numbers, how much does it cost to get a good manufacturing POS going and what's the upkeep costs in an ideal situation?

EDIT: And yeah, noticed I forgot to divide by the number of slots... still, that limits what can be produced in those slots that'd actually be profitable by a hefty amount. Also capitals and supers could be something that doesn't get the bonus. Seriously Ruby, quit tossing out things with simple solutions. The what ifs that have simple answers that a drunken monkey can figure out. And things I already addressed that you choose to ignore. Repeating yourself doesn't help.

Quite honestly, this thread lost my interest about half way through it. Getting sick and tired of seeing threads about nerfing high sec & buffing null sec as well as threads about nerfing null sec & buffing high sec. These threads need to be locked right from the start.


Oh really? Just exactly where is this high security Industrial heaven located?


'Virtually Unlimited Capacity'? Most high security Industry slots are filled with waiting times, up to 30 or more days before being open and available. Especially those near Market / Mission Hubs.

'Convenient'? Searching to find open slots available or at least slots with the lowest waiting time and then having to travel there takes time. Actually, the more time it takes to complete a job equates into less money you make.

'Risk Free'? Now that's a laugh, especially when you use that phrase to describe any activity being conducted in high security. Transporting a large amount of items in high sec is like painting a large 'Bulls-eye Target' on your ship, especially since the main target for suicide gankers is Industrial ships.

'Cheap' is about the only thing I could agree with. But after taking into consideration all the time, effort and extra expense spent just to do some production, it clearly is no longer 'Cheap'.


Anyway, time is money. That's why production for me will always be a 'Once in a while' activity, mainly a change of pace from constantly doing missions and exploration.


DMC

Lets go with that 50% bonus... say without it you make 1 billion ISK of product a month... with it would be 1.5 billion per month. Almost 1 additional PLEX worth if you keep those materials from getting blown up... could subtract the startup cost as well, but a few good months with it surviving could overtake that cost. How hard is that to understand?

10 accounts without: 10 billion - approx. 5 billion in plex costs = 5 billion profit.
10 accounts with: 15 billion - approx 5 billion in plex costs = 10 billion profit.

At 1 billion per month standard, you've pretty much doubled your potential profit if you had a great month. Now it varies on what your actual profit really is, but it was a nice round number. Yes you could also subtract losses which might bring it close to the same costs if you don't have good protection, or hell, it'd make for cheaper production for your corp, especially if you had good factory stations scattered around... so say 50% was the magic number. The question would be how many people do you want to balance manufacturing POS around because there would be ZERO question about it being beneficial or not if you were able to keep it secure long enough.

And Tippia, at this point you're being short sighted and putting words into my mouth, try again. And if POS are horrid manufacturing platforms, then they need to be fixed. Maybe you should be looking at the real issues rather than high sec if stuff like that is an issue. Something being broken doesn't mean it can't be used for a fix, it just means THAT needs to be fixed as well.

Ok, so you make 500m ISK/month extra. Want to know what that translates into?

500m/(168*4*10)= 74,404 ISK/Slot/Hr. Look at how that works out to be identical to my valuation assuming 1 character/account.

Oops. Thank you for making my point for me.


PS: You're confusing Gross with Net.

Didn't really... lets put it this way... with this theory.

10 accounts in high sec could afford about 10 additional PLEX

10 accounts in null sec could afford up to 20 additional PLEX

Equal number of accounts gets more. That's where you balance it. Not 1 account being able to get more than 10 or something stupid like that.

EDIT: Again Tippia, the "buddy" bit wouldn't in nullsec if adjusted for large corps. If the balance numbers are out of wack for null sec corp production, then it can be adjusted, which means not waiting on your "buddy". Also "resources" doesn't apply to just material. Time is a resource. Look up the word in the dictionary. And hell, they could make nullsec factory POS clearly better than high sec ones. Perhaps modules illegal to attach in high sec for one reason or another. Frankly I'm going to keep those in account because they are still part of the game, they can be adjusted, added to, fixed. And they should be all of those things.

By not losing those things, and balancing around more than 10 accounts for a station that expensive and taking into account its other bonuses. The station for example... say it was balance around 50 people...

50 x 1.5 billion = 75 B - 50 B = 25B

50 x 1 = 50 B

That'd be 1 month... lets see...

25 + 75 = 100 B

50 + 50 B = 100 B

So after the 2 month mark, you'd be making more profit than your station cost. Its called long term investment. Now you COULD add JF cost, but you could also remove it entirely if say you're producing for your corp rather than for profit, giving the corp overall more money to spend on other things. You just better hope you can defend it or not lose it to stupidity.

In fact, you could also account for sov costs the same for either method if we're assuming the same things are being made by the same people through both methods. If that is going towards sov costs anyways, its a cost regardless. Otherwise we add a bonus to the one with the sov costs as they are probably making more expensive things.