EVE General Discussion

yes this is exactly the discussion that was taking place here today

What the hell are you on about?
What does that have to do with anything being discussed in this thread?

If you want to whine about ganking, there are a bajillion threads on the topic — this isn't one of them.

Ganking doesn't bother me in the slightest. It's a legit mechanic. I'm not whining about it

But obviously null has problems, as the OP stated. I was just adding my 2 cents on what I see is wrong with null sec. And right now I see more people calling for nerfs to high sec, to fix null. When I think that the giant blue donut is the real problem!

If only null sec was full of smaller alliances, it would be much more fun IMO.



If you try reading my post that you quoted, I used the word safer. I did not say that it should be safe. Just safer! High sec by definition is supposed to be safer. I don't see how you can argue against that.

Of course you are. Why else are you bringing it up in a thread that has nothing to do with that topic other than to make sure the whinging is omnipresent?

No-one is arguing against that. In fact, no-one is even discussing it because it's not the topic of the tread. So would you like to discuss the topic or have all your posts removed for being off-topic trolling?

How do you propose to fix null without nerfing high?

You told me to...



In actual fact, I never said that CCP said high sec was supposed to be safe so I don't understand why you asked me to do this. Perhaps you could explain why you responded to me with that post?



In my very first post in this thread I proposed how to fix null without nerfing high. Now many will disagree with my proposal, but I stand by my idea, and truly believe that null would have much more pvp and fun if my idea was carried out. I don't see how I am trolling. Perhaps an ISD/CCP could enlighten me?

Any fee that would allow Null to be competitive without reducing the slots in HS would lock out newbies just as effectively as a wait time.

Remember, Competitive Manufacturing in Nullsec has to pay for 2 way transport in a JF.


But at least we're getting somewhere.

No. You just described a situation that's already occurring based on the incorrect assumption that it isn't. You're talking about something that isn't a problem and you're not suggesting anything that will fix the problems with null (it's only fit for fleet fights and some ratting and cannot sustain a full ecosystem of activities).

The thing is that, if done right, the newbies will hardly be hit at all. Their main problem will be to get enough starting cash to get some economies of scale going (since we're talking about increasing the install cost from 1k to 1M ISK, so doing one-shot deals for small stuff will quickly become cost-prohibitive). Mass producers, on the other hand, will hopefully long since have moved to POSes, since revamping those to make them work as production platforms will have to be the next step, leaving ample(ish) space for the newbies who haven't come that far yet.

The very thing that is meant to make null producers actually want to produce in null rather than in highsec will also work to make highsec producers want to move out of NPC stations. Sure, without a truly insane capacity buff on the assembly arrays and POS hangars, you'd still want to keep most of the materials and BPs and the like in a station until it's time to actually consume it, but that's still hell of a lot easier to do in high than in null (if nothing else because of the availability of stations and offices).

So why can't we just buff POSes and have the nullseccers work out of those? Because that would mean… well… buffing POSes, which would mean that highsec is still much better for it for all the normal logistical reasons: they'd just plunk down their production POS there rather than in null. The alternative would be to introduce a number of null-only modules that provide vastly better facilities than a highsec POS would, but we already have that: they're called outposts, so that's where you start to build the whole backbone. Provide a proper progression: Outpost > POS > Station and let people pick the kind of investment and return levels they can handle, rather than — as is the case right now — have increasing costs and difficulty come with worse and worse performance.

ME penalties and caps would certainly help, but tiered costs would be an interesting idea as well. Perhaps something as simple as run limits as well for designated newbie stations (enough to get you going in the business; not enough once you really start mass-producing). All of that requires some pretty fancy rejiggering of the database, though, including the introduction of completely new slot types and checks for what can go where. What's been discussed so far has all worked within the existing framework and can be done simply by adjusting a select few DB entries.

For instance, a little-known fact is that highsec station slots are a completely separate service from other station (and outpost) slots. You can trivially adjust all of highsec in a single query without touching anything else simply by adjusting the stats on that service type.

That's because the OP didn't understand his own topic, whereas the rest of us are actually discussing the problems with null — ganking is not a problem “for the people who live & work out there everyday and thus have to deal with it everyday”.

…except that the imbalance in production is one of the key problems (maybe alongside sov) that keeps null from being vibrant. Before it becomes vibrant, there will be nothing small-scale for you to attack because the only thing that's of any meaning out there is the stuff that deals with sov — large fleets. Oh, and those limits are one of the reasons why other games are horrid: because they impose silly limitations on what you can and can't do… kind of like how EVE imposes limitations on what players can do in player-controlled space, which is why we're talking about how to remove those limitations.

It already has. It always has. Largely because the mythical blue doghnut is just that: a myth.

http://themittani.com/features/bottoms-part-one-income-and-industry

Seems like its relevant to the discussion.
This bit gives a more detailed example of why nullsec industry can't currently compete with highsec.


http://themittani.com/features/more-new-eden-behind-great-firewall
This one too, about the economic situation on the Chinese server, where the price bottleneck is pirate faction LP and not technetium.

http://themittani.com/features/destroying-shipyards
And some suggestions on buffing nullsec, mostly by making POSes less terrible, on par with NPC stations more or less.

So tell us how you propose to Buff Nullsec industry to be competitive with HS's Free, Unlimited, Risk Free, and Convenient industry without nerfing HS, breaking Refining, or creating an infinite Mineral/ISK faucet.