EVE General Discussion

@Natsett
This is what OP said about his response to wardecs, and the attacker reaction.


That's a totally natural reaction to a war dec on an industrial corp without much pvp capability or interest. It seems to work out pretty well for him economically, and it suits his playstyle. If you want to alter his behaviour, you need to offer a carrot for fighting the war(currently none exists), or a stick for not fighting the war(minimal if you don't run a POS or get hit by NPC tax).

That could work. So if a corp "owns" an NPC station, everyone else can still use it(except WTs?), but the owning corp gets better refine rates, bonus industry slots, better mission payouts, cheaper repairs and clone costs.
So we're not just Industry Corp X, we're the Sinq Laison Industry Corp, and no way are we giving up our control of the manufacturing capacity around the Dodixie trade hub!

I'm sorry VV, but invoking godwins law in a economic discussion is cheap.

You can't discuss world economics and political practice while ignoring Germany, a country that still has one of the strongest economies in the world today, and is also capitalist country with strong socialist policies.

As a socialist it's impossible for me to not say, look at Germany, look at china, look at venezuala, look at cuba. It's hard enough when I've got to explain to people that they don't really undrstand socialism because what they know tends to be entirely based off of antisocialist (read: read capitalism) propaganda. Peope in non socialist countries tend to be conditioned to think of socialism as communism, and to believe that socialism is a "bad word". Rebublicans use it as a deragatory remark towards Democrats.

Not to mention what you just said applies directly to the US, which is not a socialist country.
Hyper-inflation is a serious problem here. Every bit of our economic problems is the result of corporate greed and capitalism. Capitalism is the entire reason there's a world recession.

China today is moving more and more into a system of economic social-capitalism, and it's working. While every other country in the world is experiencing economic decline, China's economy has steadily grown.

It's an undeniable fact that when the people at the bottom, THE WORKERS, succeed, everyone succeeds. Socialism is all about bottom up economics and politics, and it's a fact that when system only support the people at the top (trickle down economics, in effect) there will always be periods of economic decline.

There is no such thing as definable socialism. It's an ideal that revolves around supporting the people at the bottom, the workers, and not the people at the top, the corporation. Socialist-democracy, socialist-republic, socialist-communism, socialist-capitalism, these are real things that steam from a basic princple, not a defined policy called "socialism".

I sincerely hope you'll never happen to live in the utopia you so desire, it tends to bring some harsh reality check when applied to reality. I live in countries where the closest thing to your utopia was made law. Let's say people don't really remind million of exterminated people with affection, nor battle tanks invading their capitals to "gift" the new political system.

Also, had not the USA gifted their debt to China they could impose their currency to be properly priced and you'd magically see your growth miracle drop down like a rock. China is cheating.

The thing is, a highsec corp can totally live and monopolize a specific area of highsec. A corp or alliance could say that they own all Amarr ice belts and wardec anyone who dares to mine it. Other corps might just have their members live in a specific constellation of space and wardec anyone who tries to harass them. They can't do that under the current system because people will skirt their wardecs and suicide ganking on a mass scale is not effective unless you have tens of thousands of people.

Player generated content is key here. There are already enough carrots (not being wardecced by corps looking for easy fights, access to highsec unmolested) and sticks (not being able to undock/losing your ship) in place. It's just that the stick is so easily avoidable without any effort or cost involved that people choose that option every time.

Let me derail the thread a bit more (after all the carebear vs hi sec PvPers threads are inflationed, who cares any more).

Many, many political systems could be allright.
Socialism and its ancestor and even capitalism and even kingdoms could produce an happy world.

But then there's the theory => practice factor.

The factor is called "human beings". They have many nice properties but also many nasty properties, including being greedy, selfish, prone to corruption, fanatism, favoritism, nepotism and much much more.

Now, most of the political systems that are *better* than capitalism seem just unable to deal with the fact that they need to work with the human species we got. Sooner or later they implode or explode or degenerate.

Republics and capitalism are a sh!t on many point of view but so far they resisted human defects better than any other.
Republics attempt diluting human selfism and fanatism, capitalism converts human greed etc. into stuff being made, people eating and so on.

No other form of government or philosophy seems to allow for acceptable freedom whilst also deal with humans defects for a long term.

Null and low have tools to facilitate this sort of thing; high sec doesn't.

Tools are the key. Just saying "this is our belt" doesn't really work. If this actually worked we wouldn't need things like faction warfare and sov mechanics.

War deccs work in low and null becaue tools that put that ownership into the hands of pleyers, as apposed to them simply "saying" it's thiers.


There are no carrots in high sec, which is the problem. The OP is a perfect example of this. Why undock and fight, you lose nothing. Why stay in the corp when there's a war dec when you can go back to the undeccable NPC corp. Why grow a high sec corporation the same way null and low corps grow when, as an industrialist, you don't need to be in a player run corp to be a better industrialist.

CCP even recconized that high sec war decs are viewed largely as a greifing mechanic because there's no percieved reason to dec an industrial corp. Yet, in high sec, that is exactly the corporation you want to go to war with. Without anything that can tangibly won or lost, the high sec industrial corp has no purpose for a war dec.

Sports wouldn't be quite the same if there wasn't a championship game at the end of the season. It's even becoming a common practice to give every kid on a sports team a trophy at the end of the season.

We like winning things, it's one of the things that makes us human.
Hell, even my dog likes to win stuff. I even trained a cat with treats. (yes, it is possible to train a cat, as well as milk them.)


Give the high sec industrial corp the tools to claim ownership of stuff, and you'll be suprised just how many of them become visious warmongers.

Anyone play WoW when they first introduced the honor system? Anyone play WoW on a PvE server during that time? I watched a bunch of people that told me repeatedly that they didn't like PvP, become some of the most blood thirsty PvPers the day you could get a title over your head and get gear for killing other players.

"Carebears" don't dislike PvP, they dislike meaningless PvP, and that's pretty much how high sec wars are viewed.

The carrot in any section of EVE is being able to access the content you want to. Mission running, anomalies, mining, whatever you please. You have to work to earn the ability to farm the carrot, don't toss it aside.

The stick is the wardec, the inability to undock freely, the risk involved and the potential loss of your ship or your items. In highsec it's not very big or menacing because only a limited amount of people can attack you and there are things you can do to fight the stick back, and you can give some of the proceeds from your carrot to other people so they protect you from the stick.

When you take away the stick and provide a way for everyone to receive the same sized carrot without the stick, people will gravitate towards that because it spares them the beating if they don't want it. This is what the wardec evasion exploit and NPC corps allow for, and people will turn away bigger and bigger carrots attached to the stick (like low and nullsec) because they have adapted to stick-free gameplay and receive close to the same sized carrot doing similar activities.

People aren't going to work together if it requires them to be subject to the stick, because they can receive the exact same carrot without the stick if they worked by themselves. This is why there aren't many decent corps in highsec, resulting in the usage of the stick being relegated to griefing because only the dumb players who don't know any better and players whose game play style absolutely requires them to work together are targets for the stick.

The incentive shouldn't be more carrots for everyone, because carrots are essentially becoming worthless as more and more people gather them in the most efficient ways possible. The incentive should be to play with the stick, or to remove the ability for some carrots to be obtained in stick-free zones to make playing with the stick worthwhile.