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Latest in a long line of small gang PVP nerfs...
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#61 - 2013-02-20 08:42:22 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Ed: Also, Petrus... this thread is most unlike you guys. Seriously, it's just ******* stupid.

Sigh... I guess you simply never noticed how much I loved flying my Drake. Those days are gone, now, of course.


I'm pretty sure that no amount of Drake love can excuse the random crap you guys are spewing all up in this thread. But while we're on the topic: why can't you use the Drake now? I'm seeing it being 20m/s slower with the same tank and more DPS. What's the problem?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#62 - 2013-02-20 08:46:39 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Is the textual diarrhea known as "Tiericide"


Ship choice used to matter. Flying something like a Merlin or a Tristan or a Vexor took skill. Only people who knew what they were doing could do it properly in the face of the FotM. Now, all that ship variety we used to have has been reduced to a bunch of different reskins of the exact same ship - just orbit and hit F1. Literally the only "Choice" left is whether we want to hear lasers or projectile sounds.


I'm slightly sympathetic, despite the hyperbole. Skillful pilotting of a ship which conventional wisdom says is poor is a great thing for getting people to engage you in solo and small gang PvP and with the improvements in so many ships there are fewer such niche ships. However with so many more "good" ships there should be more people who are confident enough in their own ship to take a few risks - The two sides of the equation don't quite balance but I don't think it's exactly dire...


Kahega Amielden wrote:
Now, with Retribution 1.1, CCP nerfed some of the last two effective small gang PVP platforms left in the game: the Drake and the Hurricane. These ships had the right combination of tank and damage that a good pilot could pick off stragglers from a blob. The Cane's loss of a utility high means that it's now incapable of dealing with fast tackle, and the drake flies like a brick now.

And finally, as if the prior changes weren't enough, CCP is planning on nerfing offgrid links. Good luck trying to outmaneuver a blob now.


Wait... what???
I thought this was a thread about player skill, getting fights and the underdog over the FotM...
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#63 - 2013-02-20 08:50:30 UTC
Jacob Holland wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Is the textual diarrhea known as "Tiericide"


Ship choice used to matter. Flying something like a Merlin or a Tristan or a Vexor took skill. Only people who knew what they were doing could do it properly in the face of the FotM. Now, all that ship variety we used to have has been reduced to a bunch of different reskins of the exact same ship - just orbit and hit F1. Literally the only "Choice" left is whether we want to hear lasers or projectile sounds.


I'm slightly sympathetic, despite the hyperbole. Skillful pilotting of a ship which conventional wisdom says is poor is a great thing for getting people to engage you in solo and small gang PvP and with the improvements in so many ships there are fewer such niche ships. However with so many more "good" ships there should be more people who are confident enough in their own ship to take a few risks - The two sides of the equation don't quite balance but I don't think it's exactly dire...


Kahega Amielden wrote:
Now, with Retribution 1.1, CCP nerfed some of the last two effective small gang PVP platforms left in the game: the Drake and the Hurricane. These ships had the right combination of tank and damage that a good pilot could pick off stragglers from a blob. The Cane's loss of a utility high means that it's now incapable of dealing with fast tackle, and the drake flies like a brick now.

And finally, as if the prior changes weren't enough, CCP is planning on nerfing offgrid links. Good luck trying to outmaneuver a blob now.


Wait... what???
I thought this was a thread about player skill, getting fights and the underdog over the FotM...


That was you not reading his original post. The Merlin and Vexor were always strong ships and have consistently been rated in the "top 3" of their ship class... well, since forever.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#64 - 2013-02-20 08:55:29 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Ed: Also, Petrus... this thread is most unlike you guys. Seriously, it's just ******* stupid.

Sigh... I guess you simply never noticed how much I loved flying my Drake. Those days are gone, now, of course.


I'm pretty sure that no amount of Drake love can excuse the random crap you guys are spewing all up in this thread. But while we're on the topic: why can't you use the Drake now? I'm seeing it being 20m/s slower with the same tank and more DPS. What's the problem?

-Liang

I'm not sure how you're getting the "same tank" since the Drake got a flat out reduction to its base HP. It is also not only slower but less agile (more massive) and thus far more poorly suited for small gang PvP. On top of that, the "higher damage" claim is only applicable if you use HAMs, which is an exceptionally bad idea when fighting outnumbered, as it means you are probably close enough to not have any route of escape, and will likely just die an embarassing death. HMLs on the Drake are now worthless. Not only do they do significantly less damage, but the "buff" that Fury missiles received also made them be as bad at hitting things as torpedoes are, cutting off the only way to get even close to the same performance.

So, yeah, i'm really enjoying this "buffed" Drake.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#65 - 2013-02-20 08:58:48 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Ed: Also, Petrus... this thread is most unlike you guys. Seriously, it's just ******* stupid.

Sigh... I guess you simply never noticed how much I loved flying my Drake. Those days are gone, now, of course.


I'm pretty sure that no amount of Drake love can excuse the random crap you guys are spewing all up in this thread. But while we're on the topic: why can't you use the Drake now? I'm seeing it being 20m/s slower with the same tank and more DPS. What's the problem?

-Liang

I'm not sure how you're getting the "same tank" since the Drake got a flat out reduction to its base HP. It is also not only slower but less agile (more massive) and thus far more poorly suited for small gang PvP. On top of that, the "higher damage" claim is only applicable if you use HAMs, which is an exceptionally bad idea when fighting outnumbered, as it means you are probably close enough to not have any route of escape, and will likely just die an embarassing death. HMLs on the Drake are now worthless. Not only do they do significantly less damage, but the "buff" that Fury missiles received also made them be as bad at hitting things as torpedoes are, cutting off the only way to get even close to the same performance.

So, yeah, i'm really enjoying this "buffed" Drake.

You still get almost double the EHP of any other shield BC and the same DPS. How people can whine about that is beyond me

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#66 - 2013-02-20 08:58:59 UTC
Also, to the naysayers who think I'm talking out of you-know-where, I encourage you to check my killboard stats to see why I am so disappointed that my favorite ships have been ruined.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#67 - 2013-02-20 09:02:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

I'm not sure how you're getting the "same tank" since the Drake got a flat out reduction to its base HP. It is also not only slower but less agile (more massive) and thus far more poorly suited for small gang PvP. On top of that, the "higher damage" claim is only applicable if you use HAMs, which is an exceptionally bad idea when fighting outnumbered, as it means you are probably close enough to not have any route of escape, and will likely just die an embarassing death. HMLs on the Drake are now worthless. Not only do they do significantly less damage, but the "buff" that Fury missiles received also made them be as bad at hitting things as torpedoes are, cutting off the only way to get even close to the same performance.

So, yeah, i'm really enjoying this "buffed" Drake.


This was my old solo PVP Drake:
[Drake, Solo PVP HAM Drake]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Warp Scrambler II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Warrior II x5

Stats:
- 80318 EHP
- 599 DPS
- 1038 m/s
- 11.2 sec align

I loaded up the new EFT and made a couple of tweaks:
[Drake, Solo PVP HAM Drake]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Warp Scrambler II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
[empty high slot]

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Warrior II x5

Stats:
- 79606 EHP
- 614 DPS
- 1003 m/s
- 11.9 sec align

So the stat differences:
- EHP: <1% Nerf
- DPS: 2.5% Buff (Also, you can now overheat longer yielding even more *real* DPS)
- Speed: 3.5% Nerf
- Agility: 6% Nerf

Sorry, not seeing the cause for QQ. Maybe you had a different fit that was negatively affected?

-Liang

Ed: Just ran the numbers on a few other Drake fits. Naxias Nano, etc. They all come out with the same song and dance.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#68 - 2013-02-20 09:08:16 UTC
Liang. Wat are yu doing? Liang. Stahp!

You are ruining his reason to whine over nothing!

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#69 - 2013-02-20 09:20:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
What I don't get is they nerfed the dual neut cane into the ground because it was "unbalanced" then tweaked the cyclone so it can do 600dps with dual neuts with plenty of mobility and serviceable tank (and in the hands of the right pilot will utterly destroy a cane 1v1 due to being able to apply full dps from enough range the cane is losing dps to falloff)... really don't see the need to nerf the cane down as far as they have. Seems to have been put down like a rabid dog as if someone has a personal issue with it rather than anything else.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#70 - 2013-02-20 09:21:35 UTC
Rroff wrote:
What I don't get is they nerfed the dual neut cane into the ground because it was "unbalanced" then tweaked the cyclone so it can do 600dps with dual neuts with plenty of mobility and serviceable tank (and in the hands of the right pilot will utterly destroy a cane 1v1 due to being able to apply full dps from enough range the cane is losing dps to falloff)... really don't see the need to nerf the cane down as far as they have.

It's called "Retribution" for a reason... Ugh

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#71 - 2013-02-20 09:24:33 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
-- HAM Drake --

Remember how I said it's all "Approach, F1" nowadays? Yeah...

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#72 - 2013-02-20 09:25:03 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Rroff wrote:
What I don't get is they nerfed the dual neut cane into the ground because it was "unbalanced" then tweaked the cyclone so it can do 600dps with dual neuts with plenty of mobility and serviceable tank (and in the hands of the right pilot will utterly destroy a cane 1v1 due to being able to apply full dps from enough range the cane is losing dps to falloff)... really don't see the need to nerf the cane down as far as they have.

It's called "Retribution" for a reason... Ugh


I just wonder if they realise what they've done to the cyclone given the rhetoric used to justify nerfing the cane when the new cyclone can be fitted out in the exact way that rhetoric was aimed at.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#73 - 2013-02-20 09:26:42 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Rroff wrote:
What I don't get is they nerfed the dual neut cane into the ground because it was "unbalanced" then tweaked the cyclone so it can do 600dps with dual neuts with plenty of mobility and serviceable tank (and in the hands of the right pilot will utterly destroy a cane 1v1 due to being able to apply full dps from enough range the cane is losing dps to falloff)... really don't see the need to nerf the cane down as far as they have.

It's called "Retribution" for a reason... Ugh


The Cane is still a fine BC. I think people just forgot that every other ship in the game requires these crazy things called "fittings skills" and more intelligence "put on biggest of everything". The Cane is still superior to the Cyclone for a lot of things, and still worse for others. It's almost like there's a reason to fly something other than The Almighty Cane and The Almighty Drake.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#74 - 2013-02-20 09:27:30 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
-- HAM Drake --

Remember how I said it's all "Approach, F1" nowadays? Yeah...


Remember how I said that I looked at the Nano Drake and about a dozen fits and they all had the same song and dance? Yeah...

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#75 - 2013-02-20 09:28:05 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Rroff wrote:
What I don't get is they nerfed the dual neut cane into the ground because it was "unbalanced" then tweaked the cyclone so it can do 600dps with dual neuts with plenty of mobility and serviceable tank (and in the hands of the right pilot will utterly destroy a cane 1v1 due to being able to apply full dps from enough range the cane is losing dps to falloff)... really don't see the need to nerf the cane down as far as they have.

It's called "Retribution" for a reason... Ugh


I just wonder if they realise what they've done to the cyclone given the rhetoric used to justify nerfing the cane when the new cyclone can be fitted out in the exact way that rhetoric was aimed at.


I just wonder if you realize how stupid you look, or if you're gonna wake up in the morning with that "Whoa, what the **** did I do last night?!" feeling.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#76 - 2013-02-20 09:35:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Liang Nuren wrote:


I just wonder if you realize how stupid you look, or if you're gonna wake up in the morning with that "Whoa, what the **** did I do last night?!" feeling.

-Liang


There was very specific comments made about the cane hinting towards a fitting doctrine that was supposedly over powered for a BC regardless of tier, etc. and used to justify the need to put it in its place... but post patch the cyclone can be made to fit (which it couldn't before) the very role they were claiming was the reason for putting the cane down. I find it a bit confusing.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#77 - 2013-02-20 09:35:39 UTC
I wonder what's going to be "OP" next. Ooh, ooh! Maybe the Abaddon will lose its tank bonus for one of those useless cap usage bonuses. We already know the Typhoon is getting turned into an "Approach, F1" brick that takes no skill to fly.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#78 - 2013-02-20 09:39:09 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
I wonder what's going to be "OP" next. Ooh, ooh! Maybe the Abaddon will lose its tank bonus for one of those useless cap usage bonuses. We already know the Typhoon is getting turned into an "Approach, F1" brick that takes no skill to fly.


You seem to have this dramatic aversion to all things missile. So, tell us about this non-F1 Drake fit you had.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#79 - 2013-02-20 09:39:46 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:


I just wonder if you realize how stupid you look, or if you're gonna wake up in the morning with that "Whoa, what the **** did I do last night?!" feeling.

-Liang


There was very specific comments made about the cane hinting towards a fitting doctrine that was supposedly over powered for a BC regardless of tier, etc. and used to justify the need to put it in its place... but post patch the cyclone can be made to fit (which it couldn't before) the very role they were claiming was the reason for putting the cane down. I find it a bit confusing.


It's ok hun. It'll all be ok and better in the morning dearie.

/pat pat

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Dante Uisen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#80 - 2013-02-20 09:42:00 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
You seem to have this dramatic aversion to all things missile. So, tell us about this non-F1 Drake fit you had.


You group the launchers on F2