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Trebor Daehdoow for CSM8 - The Proven Performer - http://bit.ly/vote-trebor

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Frying Doom
#541 - 2013-04-03 15:25:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Actually ignore this

See Next post

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#542 - 2013-04-03 15:38:33 UTC
Friggz wrote:
The disagreement between Two Step's and Trebor's plan is very simple. Two Step wanted to stand up and shout "We need POS Changes, Whos with me!?" Trebor wanted to go through the crowd, ask "Whos with me?" THEN change up and shout "We need POS Changes and here is a concise list of who agrees and why."

Now if you want to make the argument that his tactic would have been less effective than Two Step's, you can make that argument. I don't agree and we'll never know who was right.

What you can't say is that Trebor wasn't willing to fight for the players, or that he sided with CCP, because that's blatantly untrue. Trebor never said he was against the threadnought. He just wanted to launch it already having the data right from the get go. His goal was the same as Two Step's. They just had differing opinions of how best to achieve it.


And this is where you completely go off the rails. The method one chooses to solve a problem is EVERYTHING. Wanting the same result barely matters at all.

The difference between Two Step's method (threadnought) and Trebor's method (some ambiguous form of crowdsourcing combined with the same old behind-the-scenes lobbying that hadn't worked to this point) can be distilled down into two distinct philosophical choices.

- Put external pressure on CCP. This can be threadnought, going to the gaming press, whatever.

- Not put external pressure on CCP. This is keeping things behind the veil of NDA's, behind closed doors.

It's obvious which choice CCP would prefer. The players? They'll take whatever gets the job done. Two Step correctly realized that the latter option was the tool of choice up to this point, and that it just resulted in CCP still being disinterested in actually starting any work on POSes. Hence, he went for the sledgehammer, as CCP had not left him a choice. Trebor was perfectly content to keep using the latter methods, despite the fact that they had quite simply failed up until this point (this would include whatever work was done by prior CSM's on the issue, which for the last 3 would include him! Funny that).

If he had just failed in this regard, it might be easy to chalk him up as being very conservative and/or non-confrontational in general (think a Hans Jagerblitzen type). However, his wardec proposal and his voting system proposal showed the opposite - he's not afraid to potentially ruffle feathers to achieve a goal. It just so happens its only other players' feathers he's willing to ruffle, not CCP's, hence the conclusion that CCP's perception of him is more important to him than achieving anything of value for the players that elected him.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Wescro2
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#543 - 2013-04-03 15:48:04 UTC
To be honest, I'm glad Trebor doesn't take an aggressive approach with getting things done, God forbid we have a carebear crusader CSM on our hands.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#544 - 2013-04-03 15:50:37 UTC
Wescro2 wrote:
To be honest, I'm glad Trebor doesn't take an aggressive approach with getting things done, God forbid we have a carebear crusader CSM on our hands.


I dunno, I would think going scorched-earth with **** like "remove non-consensual wardecs so CCP can make more money" and "let's literally throw goon votes in the trash so more people like me and my pals can get elected" is pretty much the definition of aggressive :v

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
None ofthe Above
#545 - 2013-04-03 15:52:00 UTC
Friggz wrote:

The disagreement between Two Step's and Trebor's plan is very simple. Two Step wanted to stand up and shout "We need POS Changes, Whos with me!?" Trebor wanted to go through the crowd, ask "Whos with me?" THEN change up and shout "We need POS Changes and here is a concise list of who agrees and why."


I sincerely hope Trebor's actual plan makes more sense than that. As he didn't say it. I won't hold your words against him.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Wescro2
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#546 - 2013-04-03 15:54:49 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
I dunno, I would think going scorched-earth with **** like "remove non-consensual wardecs so CCP can make more money" and "let's literally throw goon votes in the trash so more people like me and my pals can get elected" is pretty much the definition of aggressive :v


He's a very aggressive devils advocate. A proven performer in that field. Still waiting on his true opinions though, all I got was "I'll make up my mind when I get there."
None ofthe Above
#547 - 2013-04-03 16:06:32 UTC  |  Edited by: None ofthe Above
Snow Axe wrote:
Friggz wrote:
The disagreement between Two Step's and Trebor's plan is very simple. Two Step wanted to stand up and shout "We need POS Changes, Whos with me!?" Trebor wanted to go through the crowd, ask "Whos with me?" THEN change up and shout "We need POS Changes and here is a concise list of who agrees and why."

Now if you want to make the argument that his tactic would have been less effective than Two Step's, you can make that argument. I don't agree and we'll never know who was right.

What you can't say is that Trebor wasn't willing to fight for the players, or that he sided with CCP, because that's blatantly untrue. Trebor never said he was against the threadnought. He just wanted to launch it already having the data right from the get go. His goal was the same as Two Step's. They just had differing opinions of how best to achieve it.


And this is where you completely go off the rails. The method one chooses to solve a problem is EVERYTHING. Wanting the same result barely matters at all.

The difference between Two Step's method (threadnought) and Trebor's method (some ambiguous form of crowdsourcing combined with the same old behind-the-scenes lobbying that hadn't worked to this point) can be distilled down into two distinct philosophical choices.

- Put external pressure on CCP. This can be threadnought, going to the gaming press, whatever.

- Not put external pressure on CCP. This is keeping things behind the veil of NDA's, behind closed doors.

It's obvious which choice CCP would prefer. The players? They'll take whatever gets the job done. Two Step correctly realized that the latter option was the tool of choice up to this point, and that it just resulted in CCP still being disinterested in actually starting any work on POSes. Hence, he went for the sledgehammer, as CCP had not left him a choice. Trebor was perfectly content to keep using the latter methods, despite the fact that they had quite simply failed up until this point (this would include whatever work was done by prior CSM's on the issue, which for the last 3 would include him! Funny that).

If he had just failed in this regard, it might be easy to chalk him up as being very conservative and/or non-confrontational in general (think a Hans Jagerblitzen type). However, his wardec proposal and his voting system proposal showed the opposite - he's not afraid to potentially ruffle feathers to achieve a goal. It just so happens its only other players' feathers he's willing to ruffle, not CCP's, hence the conclusion that CCP's perception of him is more important to him than achieving anything of value for the players that elected him.


I understand the desire not to torch the progress they had made with CCP over the year(s). I think Two step did an admirable job of going rogue without turning into a complete bomb thrower. That might not have happened without the counterbalance of the rest of the CSM, but hard to say for sure.

I also understand where Trebor was coming from when he did his voter reform pseudo-STV thread. It was terrible yes, but CCP and much of the CSM wanted STV, even Two step wanted STV, but the resources weren't there at the time. He put forth an idea on how you could do it without the resources. I think it came across as anti-goon power play and that was unfortunate. As noted elsewhere it (both the pseudo-STV and the real STV) doesn't hurt the goon/CFC ability to field candidates.

Anyway, like with what Two step did, I hope this discussion can foster a constructive result.

(Also would like to note, Two step was going for a revamp. What we have is iteration. It is still an open question what we'll get in the future.)

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#548 - 2013-04-03 16:50:01 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
None ofthe Above wrote:
I am curious, Trebor what effect do you think the Two step thread had? Did it sway CCP and make them realize they needed to do something there? From the outside, I would guess that to be the case, but an insiders view would be useful.

At the time, I thought one of those 55/45 edge decisions. I was reasonably confident that we were going to get some love for POSes already, so for me the risks edged the rewards -- I felt we wait should a little bit (a week or 10 days) and get more information. But I understood Two step's position that he basically couldn't forgive himself if he didn't speak out and we didn't get POSes into Odyssey -- you may recall I felt pretty passionate about other issue last year. Twisted

In hindsight, the thread turned out pretty well and basically confirmed what we'd been telling CCP, so it probably helped. But that said, I think Two step made a mistake by posting when he did. If he'd been more patient, he probably could have forged a consensus, and we could have crafted an even better opening post to frame the issue.

But like I said, it was 55/45. I'm sure it was the toughest decision he made on CSM all year.


Just to offer another opinion. I think the thread definitely forced CCP's hand. I'm not so sure we'd have seen any POS love without it. I still think what we are getting is far from what we've been crying out for all these years and may even delay what we've really wanted even longer.

Just my opinion,

Issler
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#549 - 2013-04-03 20:48:55 UTC
Based on recommendations I have received, Steve Rokunen gets the final slot on my ballot. He looks to be a well-rounded, sensible candidate, and his experience as an API developer would come in very handy.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#550 - 2013-04-03 23:05:59 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Friggz wrote:
You seem to be under the impression that the worse CCP makes the game, the more money they'll make. I feel the reverse is true...


I agree. There seems to be a popular fallacy that CCP are under constant pressure to "WoWify" EVE in order to make more money (when I say it's a popular fallacy, I mean it's popular with a certain subset of the playerbase) but never yet has anyone been able to point to an example of this working, still less how it could be expected to work specifically for EVE. And there are also examples of it failing badly. (Star Wars NGE)

Despite the utter lack of evidence for it, and the large amount of evidence against it, the fallacy persists, along with the assumption that CCP are stupid enough to believe it too.


Well its not so much about CCP being stupid sometimes.

Its that CCP is a company overall. There are a lot of business models out there, and if CCP did see a successful business model, they might be tempted to try it out. Think of null sec, when a successful fit or plan works, others might try to copy it. CCP the company would try to do what they did in order to be successful or make more money.

True CCP could take other game companies business models like WoW and stuff, like other game companies have done. CCP actually took the micro transaction model other games adopt as a business model but WoW does as well as a secondary thing not a primary one.

CCP is a fun, hip independent company, so I suppose the micro transaction idea would be more fun or suitable for them. Kind of like the PLEX idea.

But what is worrying, is there are other models out there, Wal-Mart and McDonalds and such. Those are companies with business models. CCP can see the business models and attempt to use them to make more money then before. I think those are the business models, players worry about CCP adopting where you make the game worse (Offer super water down products or food at cheap prices.). And lots of customers and players come to EVE for those cheap and affordable goods. But it means for the current players, a worse experience.

But with CCP being an independent and hip company, maybe they will never go with the unhip walmart business model. But perhaps a hip version of that will be created though, then CCP will grab it and try to implement it into the game.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Amyclas Amatin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#551 - 2013-04-04 15:03:42 UTC
Could everyone indulge me to present an innocent survey on high-sec aggression? I hope to be able to get data from all parts of the EVE community, including the bears.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1dLcM27c_qDyOIxFgE4Zan_T8j_eZDDeCUAEL4lwXGC8/viewform

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#552 - 2013-04-04 18:08:49 UTC
Now that the elections have started, I'd like to encourage everyone to get out there and vote!

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#553 - 2013-04-04 18:14:09 UTC
Trebor is a Trojan horse. He admitted that he'll happily see the game change away from it's niche PVP type of game play in favour of the game getting more subscribers. That means he's ok with making it into WOW in space, completely nullifying and ignoring the speciality niche that made EVE into what it is and what made it prosper over the years, if that means a (short term) increase in subs. Ie, he's a sell out.

Apart from that he's a politician and those are the worst type of people to be in "power".
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Templis CALSF
#554 - 2013-04-04 22:58:39 UTC
Despite the controversy surrounding Trebor and what his views are/aren't he's still one of the best people to put on your ballot.

I endorse my CSM nemesis.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#555 - 2013-04-05 10:34:25 UTC
Thanks for the kind words, Alek.

In other news, I've updated my ballot tool to make it much easier to create custom ballot-filling bookmarklets, building on the work done by Jumanji. More details can be found here.

If you just want to create your own custom ballot quickly and easily, just click here.

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
None ofthe Above
#556 - 2013-04-05 14:33:12 UTC
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Trebor is a Trojan horse. He admitted that he'll happily see the game change away from it's niche PVP type of game play in favour of the game getting more subscribers. That means he's ok with making it into WOW in space, completely nullifying and ignoring the speciality niche that made EVE into what it is and what made it prosper over the years, if that means a (short term) increase in subs. Ie, he's a sell out.

Apart from that he's a politician and those are the worst type of people to be in "power".


Best response to this I can think of is from Two step:

http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/
Two step wrote:

Trebor is my top non-wormhole candidate. He was one of the hardest workers during CSM 7 (and 6, and 5, for that matter), he has a very good understanding of how CCP gets things done, and he and I generally agree on most topics. Don't believe the lies, he isn't out to make all highsec safe from any combat, and he isn't out to get nullsec residents. He also agreed to run for CSM 8, which meant that I was OK with not running myself. :)

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#557 - 2013-04-06 06:37:52 UTC
None ofthe Above wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
Trebor is a Trojan horse. He admitted that he'll happily see the game change away from it's niche PVP type of game play in favour of the game getting more subscribers. That means he's ok with making it into WOW in space, completely nullifying and ignoring the speciality niche that made EVE into what it is and what made it prosper over the years, if that means a (short term) increase in subs. Ie, he's a sell out.

Apart from that he's a politician and those are the worst type of people to be in "power".


Best response to this I can think of is from Two step:

http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/
Two step wrote:

Trebor is my top non-wormhole candidate. He was one of the hardest workers during CSM 7 (and 6, and 5, for that matter), he has a very good understanding of how CCP gets things done, and he and I generally agree on most topics. Don't believe the lies, he isn't out to make all highsec safe from any combat, and he isn't out to get nullsec residents. He also agreed to run for CSM 8, which meant that I was OK with not running myself. :)


Did you actually listen to the interview?
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#558 - 2013-04-06 23:55:19 UTC
It's Saturday night, so it's time for a little singalong...

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
Frying Doom
#559 - 2013-04-07 11:05:16 UTC
I was surprised that Seleene did not actually want the STV system

Now given that the CSM 6 minutes showed that CCP were after this change, I would like to ask, besides you who actually wanted this train wreck?

Oh and I have noticed CCPs promotion of the CSM is going so well so far.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Frying Doom
#560 - 2013-04-07 21:36:23 UTC
I would also like to ask your opinion of CCPs promotion of the CSM elections so far. Also how would you respond to the fact that this is so far the most boring CSM election I have seen so far, I mean just look at Jita park, last year this place was flying along and now it is almost as popular as it is for the rest of the year.

GD is as boring as hell for the election as well. The Voting threads are needing to be beaten to life all the time.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!