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Incursions Start here.

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JAF Anders
Adenosine Inhibition
The Chicken Coop
#61 - 2013-03-11 19:51:03 UTC
Friendly bump.

The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts.
Tigerras
Smash Incorporated
#62 - 2013-03-13 04:39:41 UTC
Very good information in here.

I really hate that logi 5 is required to fly by most groups. This pilot has a very strong set of skills (in terms of shield skills I'm missing lvl 5 on a couple of the reinforcement damage types and that's it), can fly a basi or a scimi, can field tech 2 shield drones (not to mention countless other fitting skills). However, she is useless for another 20-some days while she trains logi 5. I have a second toon for incursions because this one has horrible gallente and minnie faction standing, and he will be ready for incursions 10 hours after this one, despite having half as many skill points. In general, he will not be as strong, but he will be able to match the fittings and have logi v (and oddly enough he will be able to fly a guardian as well as a basi and scimi).

Sorry for the mini-rant. I know the extra 15% cap use reduction is important, but having to train the support skill to 5 is murder. I imagine I could top off several other skills in that 20 day window.

Are there any fleets that are more lenient on the logi 5 requirement, assuming the pilot can field a strong ship otherwise? (don't even bother asking about fielding a dps ship, my SP are heavy into missiles with almost no hybrids or other guns)
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#63 - 2013-03-13 05:46:13 UTC
Tigerras wrote:
Very good information in here.

I really hate that logi 5 is required to fly by most groups. This pilot has a very strong set of skills (in terms of shield skills I'm missing lvl 5 on a couple of the reinforcement damage types and that's it), can fly a basi or a scimi, can field tech 2 shield drones (not to mention countless other fitting skills). However, she is useless for another 20-some days while she trains logi 5. I have a second toon for incursions because this one has horrible gallente and minnie faction standing, and he will be ready for incursions 10 hours after this one, despite having half as many skill points. In general, he will not be as strong, but he will be able to match the fittings and have logi v (and oddly enough he will be able to fly a guardian as well as a basi and scimi).

Sorry for the mini-rant. I know the extra 15% cap use reduction is important, but having to train the support skill to 5 is murder. I imagine I could top off several other skills in that 20 day window.

Are there any fleets that are more lenient on the logi 5 requirement, assuming the pilot can field a strong ship otherwise? (don't even bother asking about fielding a dps ship, my SP are heavy into missiles with almost no hybrids or other guns)

If you want to start early go with a basi and possibly an implant, a 4 shield 2 energy transfer Basi can be made to 'work' for budding logi pilots. it's not pretty but it can work. tell the community you’re going to fly with that your logi 4 and 20 days from logi 5 and if they need you they will make adjustments, the good thing about a basi 4/2 fit is a pair of basis are still bringing 8 reps to the field which is more than enough to handle the rep needed in a VG fleet.

You will need two energy transfers feeding you at all times but the second basi should only need one feeding him (If he has logi 5) If your training em/therm/kin/exp shield compensation 5, then stop now, those are only affecting passive modules, and most of the basi fits I have seen use an active hardener and those skills are useless for active modules as of the last update.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2013-03-13 07:26:45 UTC
Of course, until the DIN&TVP/ISN "dispute" gets resolved, there may not be many high sec incursions to partake in...
Tigerras
Smash Incorporated
#65 - 2013-03-13 12:37:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tigerras
I was pointing out having the shield compensation skills because three of those skills and the smart bomb skill are the only engineering skills I do not have to 5. The last patch is one of the reasons they are not being trained on this character in the near future (but if I decide to go try one of the passive setups I was training for way back when they will be useful).

I will try to get into some groups with a 4/2 setup. I noticed I am also missing tech 2 logi drones (12 more days on that if I don't remap) but checked the fits and I have the rest of the skills for a tech 2 setup.


And I noticed that the only incursions up right now are lowsec ones....fun times
Cavel Avada
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#66 - 2013-03-13 18:12:26 UTC
Will I be able to do incursions in navy apoc if I don't have all t2 mods? I have t2 defense (reps/hardeners), but not offense.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#67 - 2013-03-13 18:23:34 UTC
Cavel Avada wrote:
Will I be able to do incursions in navy apoc if I don't have all t2 mods? I have t2 defense (reps/hardeners), but not offense.

Higher skilled pilots will always be picked over less skilled ones, that being said the fleet still needs a minimum number to get moving so there is usually room for 'Learning Pilots'.

As for T1 guns the whole point of a DPS ship is to project as much damage as possible, that is clearly evident with T2 guns. I know some communities have a T2 gun requirement, but many do not, I would post what you have in some of the community channels and see what they say.

Most likely you will find your ship and current skills are welcome in fleet, as everyone knows that skills are an ever changing thing.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#68 - 2013-03-13 18:43:29 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Cavel Avada wrote:
Will I be able to do incursions in navy apoc if I don't have all t2 mods? I have t2 defense (reps/hardeners), but not offense.


An armour fit NAPOC can find fleets in TDF even when its META 4 often its easier though to get into fleets all META 4'd in the slow hours of the day when you don't have T2 gun competition
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#69 - 2013-03-13 18:48:47 UTC
Karig'Ano Keikira wrote:
Anyone uses tengus in incursions these days? Or are they pretty much obsolete?


Only tengus I see are the ones run by a multi boxer guy with ~20-25 of them in assaults ~12-15 in VG's
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Pearlescent Blue
Perkone
Caldari State
#70 - 2013-03-14 12:30:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Pearlescent Blue
Hi Goldiiee, thanks again for the great feedback you have been giving. Lots of good stuff here.

I have a question in rerdards to dps vs logi role? Which role would give a spot in an incursion fleet quicker as a newish player? LIke is the waiting list shorter for Logi pilots or is the wait just as long as it is for a dps role? I mean I am sure there are a lot of dps pilots waiting for a spot but are there just as many logi pilots waiting as well?

Traditionally support pilots are always needed and hard to come by because most people would rather dps than doing logi stuff.

My toon is fully skilled towards tengu, but to be more flexable and able to fly with different groups or at least with groups that dont take T3, I would either need to train for BS or go the logi route. Any advivce would be appreciate it. Thank you!


P. Blue
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#71 - 2013-03-14 13:57:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldiiee
Pearlescent Blue wrote:
Hi Goldiiee, thanks again for the great feedback you have been giving. Lots of good stuff here.

I have a question in rerdards to dps vs logi role? Which role would give a spot in an incursion fleet quicker as a newish player? LIke is the waiting list shorter for Logi pilots or is the wait just as long as it is for a dps role? I mean I am sure there are a lot of dps pilots waiting for a spot but are there just as many logi pilots waiting as well?

Traditionally support pilots are always needed and hard to come by because most people would rather dps than doing logi stuff.

My toon is fully skilled towards tengu, but to be more flexable and able to fly with different groups or at least with groups that dont take T3, I would either need to train for BS or go the logi route. Any advivce would be appreciate it. Thank you!


P. Blue

I really hate giving out this advice, because I could be really wrong. So instead I will give you the stats that apply to your question. An 'average' fleet brings 1 logistics for every 4 DPS give or take. So you would think that there is a surplus of underemployed Logistics pilots running around. But in reality I see more underemployed DPS pilots; this is probably due to the long training requirement for Logistics V. Whereas a DPS pilot can be somewhat effective without any specialized training to V.

So that would be how I see it. Still not very helpful I fear, so I will add that many of the logistics pilots I have known cross train into a DPS role, and vice versa DPS to Logistics. With both roles covered they tend to ask for fleet invites by simply putting ‘Logi/DPS’ up as their X for fleet invite.

With your skills already at V for Caldari cruisers your logistic skills are probably easier to attain than the currently preferred turret DPS. But Tengus are still used by many of the less specialized (restrictive) communities. So before I tell you to make a new training plan you should check with TVP (they have the broadest connections) and see if they know anywhere your Tengu would be welcomed in fleet. I guess only one more thing to add, the most needed pilot in all of the incursion communities are FC’s, as they are always needed, and there is no training que for it, except time in fleet.

Will stop typing now I seem to be rambling, and dont feel like I help much at all.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Pearlescent Blue
Perkone
Caldari State
#72 - 2013-03-14 14:20:09 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
Pearlescent Blue wrote:
Hi Goldiiee, thanks again for the great feedback you have been giving. Lots of good stuff here.

I have a question in rerdards to dps vs logi role? Which role would give a spot in an incursion fleet quicker as a newish player? LIke is the waiting list shorter for Logi pilots or is the wait just as long as it is for a dps role? I mean I am sure there are a lot of dps pilots waiting for a spot but are there just as many logi pilots waiting as well?

Traditionally support pilots are always needed and hard to come by because most people would rather dps than doing logi stuff.

My toon is fully skilled towards tengu, but to be more flexable and able to fly with different groups or at least with groups that dont take T3, I would either need to train for BS or go the logi route. Any advivce would be appreciate it. Thank you!


P. Blue

I really hate giving out this advice, because I could be really wrong. So instead I will give you the stats that apply to your question. An 'average' fleet brings 1 logistics for every 4 DPS give or take. So you would think that there is a surplus of underemployed Logistics pilots running around. But in reality I see more underemployed DPS pilots; this is probably due to the long training requirement for Logistics V. Whereas a DPS pilot can be somewhat effective without any specialized training to V.

So that would be how I see it. Still not very helpful I fear, so I will add that many of the logistics pilots I have know cross train into a DPS role, and vice versa DPS to Logistics. With both roles covered they tend to ask for fleet invites by simply putting ‘Logi/DPS’ up as their X for fleet invite.

With your skills already at V for Caldari cruisers your logistic skills are probably easier to attain than the currently preferred turret DPS. But Tengus are still used by many of the less specialized (restrictive) communities. So before I tell you to make a new training plan you should check with TVP (they have the broadest connections) and see if they know anywhere your Tengu would be welcome in fleet. I guess only one more thing to add, the most needed pilot in all of the incursion communities are FC’s, as they are always needed, and there is no training que for it, except time in fleet.

Will stop typing now I seem to be rambling, and dont feel like I help much at all.


Thanks Goldiiee! It did help for sure! Thanks for taking all that time to answer our questions. It helps a lot! Not very many people especially on forums gives continuesly constructive advice that helps!


P. Blue
Pearlescent Blue
Perkone
Caldari State
#73 - 2013-03-14 14:50:41 UTC
Another quick question, do you know if HAM tengus are preferred now a days or are still more HM Tengus? Maybe something I need to take into the TVP channel!? Thanks!


P. Blue
Pearlescent Blue
Perkone
Caldari State
#74 - 2013-03-14 15:00:18 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
I really hate giving out this advice, because I could be really wrong. So instead I will give you the stats that apply to your question. An 'average' fleet brings 1 logistics for every 4 DPS give or take. So you would think that there is a surplus of underemployed Logistics pilots running around. But in reality I see more underemployed DPS pilots; this is probably due to the long training requirement for Logistics V. Whereas a DPS pilot can be somewhat effective without any specialized training to V.

So that would be how I see it. Still not very helpful I fear, so I will add that many of the logistics pilots I have know cross train into a DPS role, and vice versa DPS to Logistics. With both roles covered they tend to ask for fleet invites by simply putting ‘Logi/DPS’ up as their X for fleet invite.

With your skills already at V for Caldari cruisers your logistic skills are probably easier to attain than the currently preferred turret DPS. But Tengus are still used by many of the less specialized (restrictive) communities. So before I tell you to make a new training plan you should check with TVP (they have the broadest connections) and see if they know anywhere your Tengu would be welcome in fleet. I guess only one more thing to add, the most needed pilot in all of the incursion communities are FC’s, as they are always needed, and there is no training que for it, except time in fleet.

Will stop typing now I seem to be rambling, and dont feel like I help much at all.


Are you able to recommend a FC maybe yourself Blink that I could hook up with (in game) to get some FC advice/recommendations/direction?
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#75 - 2013-03-14 15:08:42 UTC
Pearlescent Blue wrote:
Are you able to recommend a FC maybe yourself Blink that I could hook up with (in game) to get some FC advice/recommendations/direction?

I would be happy to give you a rundown of FC duties and some pointer on how to get heading in the right direction, next time your online look me up in ISN secondary, or open a private convo and I can get you on comms and answer any questions you have.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Pearlescent Blue
Perkone
Caldari State
#76 - 2013-03-14 15:10:30 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
Pearlescent Blue wrote:
Are you able to recommend a FC maybe yourself Blink that I could hook up with (in game) to get some FC advice/recommendations/direction?

I would be happy to give you a rundown of FC duties and some pointer on how to get heading in the right direction, next time your online look me up in ISN secondary, or open a private convo and I can get you on comms and answer any questions you have.


Will take you up on that! thanks!
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#77 - 2013-03-14 20:39:43 UTC
Added. “WarpTo Me Incursions” to the groups in the OP. New group with experienced FC's. look them up and join thier channel.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#78 - 2013-03-15 06:50:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldiiee
I had a few conversations yesterday about becoming an FC, and I realised that there wasn’t a lot of hard information on this, even though it is the most important role in fleet PVE so here are some thought on the matter.

Skills
First and foremost you will need wing command skills to 2 for a VG fleet, this will allow you to fleet warp and distrubute bonuses to 2 squads, or 21 pilots (including yourself). Assault might be able to be run at Wing Command 2 but I wouldn’t advise it. Wing Command 4 is the minimum for running HQ’s but just barely, similar to assaults with Wing Command 2, you can do it but there is no room for errors.

Ship
FC ship types have changed over time, originally a monster tank was the FC ship of choice (My first FC was sporting a 200k EHP tank), pretty much anything that could survive the first wave and keep the FC on the field, as the mechanics have been more closely observed groups have found a comfort zone, some still use the huge anchor, others believe huge tanks are not as good as high resists and comfortable buffers. (I fall into the 70% resists and 14k buffer group). FC’ing from a Logi boat is difficult at best, not being able to see the rats as they die makes it hard to judge how well the fleet is doing and make adjustments to improve. Not to mention a logi has enough important jobs to do, don’t add FC’ing to the list it will only end in tears.

Forming Up
Depending on your fleets abilities you will have to decide whether your Fleets DPS will remove enough of the rats to keep the logistics from being overrun. And if your fleet comp is capable of dealing with unexpected situations (never know when that Logi's ISP will disconnect him to spite you). This is where a good understanding of ships, bonuses and all types of fittings comes in handy.
Knowing what a ships optimal and falloff ranges will be.
The appropriate DPS it should have.
The amount of shield/armour it has for a buffer.
The resists/buffer it should have with currently fitted modules.
The range and efficiency of a large variety of Webs.

Fleet Composition
A fleet full of 1400s will spend all day in a site and never kill the first wave if the rats get into orbit unless you have webs. A full fleet of blasters will kill everything quite efficiently but you will be tanking full room aggro for the entire time rats are getting in range. Missiles work at most ranges but a contesting fleet will make many of the volleys fly into nothing, and inexperienced pilots will waste weapon cycles on targets that are no longer there when the missile arrives.

Your Job
As the FC you will be responsible for deciding if a volunteers’ ship will be a benefit or liability, and if the pilot will be helpful, disruptive or for that matter a greifer (Yes new news, some people get in fleets just to watch, and sometimes help, Incursion Bears lose ships) Being able to communicate exactly what you need and how you need it done will save time and assets. Voice comms are essential to making this work, and a microphone shy FC will worry a fleet of seasoned pilots, conversely a screaming FC will annoy good pilots and prove their incompetence by blaming other for their failures. If you make a mistake, own it, and don’t make the same mistake again.

Another FC’s job has to do with fluidity, having the next step planned and ready to execute will keep pilots happy and involved, things like knowing where the fleet needs to go next, giving the command to align early and often, reminding the fleet to grab their drones, reload their ammo, follow tags, and all the while watching to make sure nobody is dying or asleep at the keyboard. It is a multitasking nightmare some days, and as easy as breathing the next day.

Manage your assets and time; nothing will break a fleet up faster than a 30 minute acceleration gate break after every site. Pick a time for a break and let everyone in fleet know. Ask pilots leaving fleet to let you know as early as possible, don’t guilt them into staying. Keep the replacement pilots advised of when they will be active. You will find that people leaving fleet will look for you to FC for them more often if you are flexible and considerate.

Well I am sure there is more to add, but this should be a good start.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Pearlescent Blue
Perkone
Caldari State
#79 - 2013-03-15 07:09:16 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
I had a few conversations yesterday about becoming an FC, and I realised that there wasn’t a lot of hard information on this, even though it is the most important role in fleet PVE so here are some thought on the matter.

Skills
First and foremost you will need wing command skills to 2 for a VG fleet, this will allow you to fleet warp and ditrubute bonuses to 2 squads, or 21 pilots (including yourself). Assault might be able to be run at Wing Command 2 but I wouldn’t advise it. Wing Command 4 is the minimum for running HQ’s but just barely, similar to assaults with Wing Command 2, you can do it but there is no room for errors.

Ship
FC ship types have changed over time, originally a monster tank was the FC ship of choice (My first FC was sporting a 200k EHP tank), pretty much anything that could survive the first wave and keep the FC on the field, as the mechanics have been more closely observed groups have found a comfort zone some still use the huge anchor, others believe huge tanks are not as good as high resists and comfortable buffers. (I fall into the 70% resists and 14k buffer group). FC’ing from a Logi boat is difficult at best, not being able to see the rats as they die makes it hard to judge how well the fleet is doing and make adjustments to improve. Not to mention a logi has enough important jobs to do, don’t add FC’ing to the list it will only end in tears.

Forming Up
Depending on your fleets abilities you will have to decide whether your Fleets DPS will remove enough of the rats to keep the logistics from being overrun. And if your fleet comp is capable of dealing with unexpected situations (never know when that Logi's ISP will disconnect him to spite you). This is where a good understanding of ships, bonuses and all types of fittings comes in handy.
Knowing what a ships optimal and falloff ranges will be.
The appropriate DPS it should have.
The amount of shield/armour it has for a buffer.
The resists/buffer it should have with currently fitted modules.
The range and efficiency of a large variety of Webs.

Fleet Composition
A fleet full of 1400s will spend all day in a site and never kill the first wave if the rats get into orbit unless you have webs. A full fleet of blasters will kill everything quite efficiently but you will be tanking full room aggro for the entire time rats are getting in range. Missiles work at most ranges but a contesting fleet will make many of the volleys fly into nothing, and inexperienced pilots will waste weapon cycles on targets that are no longer there when the missile arrives.

Your Job
As the FC you will be responsible for deciding if a volunteers’ ship will be a benefit or liability, and if the pilot will be helpful, disruptive or for that matter a greifer (Yes new news, some people get in fleets just to watch, and sometimes help, Incursion Bears lose ships) Being able to communicate exactly what you need and how you need it done will save time and assets. Voice comms are essential to making this work, and a microphone shy FC will worry a fleet of seasoned pilots, conversely a screaming FC will annoy good pilots and prove their incompetence by blaming other for their failures. If you make a mistake, own it, and don’t make the same mistake again.

Another FC’s job has to do with fluidity, having the next step planned and ready to execute will keep pilots happy and involved, things like knowing where the fleet needs to go next, giving the command to align early and often, reminding the fleet to grab their drones, reload their ammo, follow tags, and all the while watching to make sure nobody is dying or asleep at the keyboard. It is a multitasking nightmare some days, and as easy as breathing the next day.

Manage your assets and time; nothing will break a fleet up faster than a 30 minute acceleration gate break after every site. Pick a time for a break and let everyone in fleet know. Ask pilots leaving fleet to let you know as early as possible, don’t guilt them into staying. Keep the replacement pilots advised of when they will be active. You will find that people leaving fleet will look for you to FC for them more often if you are flexible and considerate.

Well I am sure there is more to add, but this should be a good start.


Hi Goldiiee, you are definitely a huge asset to the Incursion community. I am pretty new to the incursion way of live but you've been a huge help to point me in the right direction and how to get started. I hope I can get into a fleets asap to learn how its done.


DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#80 - 2013-03-16 05:26:26 UTC
TDF :) Unabashed TDF promo pic :DBig smileLol
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'