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Uh, did my crew just go squish?

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Faulx
Brother Fox Corp
#1 - 2013-02-17 03:15:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Faulx
So, it occurred to me, while I was re-reading about pod goo and ship crews. We capsuleers are protected against high G-Force by immersion in thick fluid, but what's protecting the crew (and passengers)?

So I decided to crunch some numbers... obviously interceptors and super fast accelerating frigates would have be made to be pod only (despite the guidelines). So I decided to look at the next level up, a very fast cruiser. Enter the Stabber.

Stabber (min crew, 10 – 50)
11,400,000 kg mass
0.48 agi
3 low slots
3 mid slots
231 m/sec base speed
timeToWarp=7.586 seconds

Now we need something to guide our G-Force calculations... let's use align time to warp:

Align Time Formula
TimeToWarp = -ln(0.25) × Mass_kg × Agility / 1000000

There are, of course, a world of modules and skills to modify these numbers (let's ignore rigs, just cause I hate diminishing returns past 3) :

Ship Modules:
  • Nanofiber Internal Structure II
    • -15.8 % agi (-13.746% 1 dim) (-9.006% 2 dim) (-33.91481767208% cumulative 3 modules)
    9.4 % velc (8.178% 1 dim) (5.358% 2 dim) (24.68774990056% cumulative 3 modules)

  • 10MN Afterburner II
    • 135% max velc (168.75% w/skills)
    5,000,000 kg mass addition (changes 3.76 sec TTW to 5.41 sec)
    50% overload speed bonus (total 253.125% speed bonus w/skills + OL) (total 335.00% with max fleet boost)

    Skills:
  • Acceleration Control
    • 5% per level to AB (and mwd) speed
    .
  • Navigation
    • 5% per level to ship speed

  • Evasive Maneuvering
    • -5% per level to agi

  • Skirmish Warfare
    • -2% per level to agi (or flat 15% with mind link)

  • Warfare Link Specialist
    • 10% per level to links

  • Skirmish Warfare Specialist
    • 100% per level to link modules

    Fleet Boosting:
  • Claymore
    • 3% per commandship level to skrim links

  • Skirmish Warfare Mindlink
    • Effect: 50% increase to the command bonus of Skirmish Warfare Link modules.
    Replaces skirmish warfare skill bonus with fixed 15% agility bonus.

  • Skirmish Warfare Link II - Rapid Deployment (no link?)
    • base 2.5% to afterburner (and mwd) speed (12.5% with skirm spec > 18.75% with link spec > 21.5625% with claymore > 32.34375% with mindlink)

    As a quick aside to theoretical physics... I don't use a MWD here because by bending space "warp" does not cause acceleration in the same way as thrust does... theoretically anyway.

    So then... the base stats on our Stabber change a bit with all these modifications:
    231 m/sec base speed (361.0 w/skills) (450.1 w/skills + 3x NISII) (1,953.25 m/s, w/skills + max OL a/b + max fleet boost to a/b)
    timeToWarp=7.586 seconds (5.689 w/skills) (3.76 w/skills+ 3x NISII) (5.41 s with a/b online) (4.5985 sec with mindlinked fleet bonus)

    Thus, during our Stabbers acceleration from 0 m/s to warp speed (i.e. 75% of max) we have: 0 to 75% of 1,953.25396 = 1,464.94 m/s in 4.5985 seconds... This is an average acceleration of 1,464.94047 / 4.5985 = 318.57 m/s/s.... which is roughly 32.5 Gs. Note that this is an underestimate of the maximum acceleration since, in Eve, speed accumulates logarithmically (due to "forth dimensional drag" or some such nonsense), thus the acceleration in the first second is quite a lot higher than in the remaining few.

    *Edit: Ugh... I just remembered some weirdness with the effects of AB mass vs. thrust.. I suspect I've flubbed the max speed a bit,... still, it should be ballpark....
    *Edit: correcting some numbers... again
    Faulx
    Brother Fox Corp
    #2 - 2013-02-17 03:15:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Faulx
    But how would this affect a crew? Let's take a glancing look at some contemporary !!!science!!!. Enter John Paul Stapp. In order to understand how pulling G's in an airplane affected pilots, this fine Air Force physician strapped himself to a rocket chair and subjected himself to dozens of incrementally higher accelerations up to a maximum of 46.2 Gs (squish... belted to a chair). In the course of the experiments he broke wrists, ribs, and suffered detached retinas along with other injuries. The most important thing he and his fellow scientists learned was the importance of being strapped in (thus came car seat belts):

    "By riding the decelerator sled himself, Stapp demonstrated that a human can withstand at least 45 g (440 m/s²) in the forward position, with adequate harness. This is the highest known acceleration voluntarily encountered by a human. Stapp believed that the tolerance of humans to acceleration had not yet been reached in tests, and is much greater than ordinarily thought possible."

    The key words here being, "with adequate harness".

    They also decided that facing backwards while decelerating was far better than forwards... they told the Airlines about this... yet we all still ride forwards *boggle*.

    Anyway... it's clear that a 32.5 G deceleration would be... "bad"... for any crew that wasn't strapped down... and, given how capricious capsuleers can be about when they want to accelerate,... that crew had better be always strapped down. Even then, I suspect injuries,... and vomit,... would be plentiful. God forbid you should have crew aboard an interceptor or the like, I suspect they would be jelly before long.

    Obviously there is some kind of "inertial dampening" at work if the crews are able to survive these types of accelerations.

    So my question with all this is.... "Given that acceleration doesn't seem to be a problem for ship crews, then, aside from the whole Immortal bit and the enhanced ship function, is there really any reason for pilots to be required to rely on a 'hardline' connection to their ship? Surely they could walk around on-board exerting some remote control with the right implant/transmitter?"

    *Edit correcting some numbers
    Kalanaja
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #3 - 2013-02-17 06:55:37 UTC
    It would have to be artificial gravity fields. Though earlier ships would not have had it.
    Tavin Aikisen
    Phoenix Naval Operations
    Phoenix Naval Systems
    #4 - 2013-02-17 09:56:48 UTC
    Intertial Dampers?

    #StarTrek #seatbeltsonthebridge

    In all seriousness a lot of these numbers won't make sense. Neither will the actual acceleration of these vehicles given the engine placement. Looking at those asymmetrical ships in particular.

    But as far as justification as already pointed out, artificial gravity fields and other sci-fi gadgets are the best explanation you can really get.

    "Remember this. Trust your eyes, you will kill each other. Trust your veins, you can all go home."

    -Cold Wind
    Saede Riordan
    Alexylva Paradox
    #5 - 2013-02-17 13:23:15 UTC
    Quote:
    So my question with all this is.... "Given that acceleration doesn't seem to be a problem for ship crews, then, aside from the whole Immortal bit and the enhanced ship function, is there really any reason for pilots to be required to rely on a 'hardline' connection to their ship? Surely they could walk around on-board exerting some remote control with the right implant/transmitter?"


    To a very very rough degree a capsuleer could control their ship from outside of the pod (I generally will RP this as turning the autopilot on and off and nothing else.) However, when a capsuleer is in the pod to a certain degree they become the ship. The hull becomes their skin, the camera drones become their eyes, the ship becomes their body. Its this that allows the capsuleer the huge amount of tactical flexibility as compared to baseliner ships. Your pilot is the ship itself.

    Fear and Loathing in Internet Spaceships
    Marcion Cravik
    Phoibe Enterprises
    #6 - 2013-02-17 14:44:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcion Cravik
    I'm no physicist, but I'm sure you can't apply standard acceleration calculations to propulsion techniques surpassing the speed of light with warpspace stuff that let's you fly through planets.
    Faulx
    Brother Fox Corp
    #7 - 2013-02-17 15:07:23 UTC
    Heh, I didn't. This was all afterburner. Shocked
    Saul Elsyn
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #8 - 2013-02-17 19:22:26 UTC
    Inertial compensation is your friend... considering that New Eden has ground troops that can leap out of a deployment craft a couple hundred meters up and land unharmed, you don't need to worry about that.
    Esna Pitoojee
    Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
    Khimi Harar
    #9 - 2013-02-17 20:14:11 UTC
    At one point there was a bug which could cause your ships to do a spontaneous 360 degree spin "horizontally". I did some calculations for amusement and found that a crewmember at either end of my Apocalypse was probably experiencing about 50 Gs of acceleration the moment the thing started to spin, and another 50 Gs when it stopped.

    But yes - inertial dampeners are your friend.
    Eija-Riitta Veitonen
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #10 - 2013-02-18 01:59:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Eija-Riitta Veitonen
    The main reason for why capsuleers can execute maneuvers unthinkable by the conventional crews is the lack of person-to-person and sensors-to-brain-to-hand-to-interface-to-ship communications. With capsule it is, how Saede Riordan duly noted, much quicker - brain-to-ship directly - bypassing the many levels that can and do introduce a lag between the brain commands and ship's responses, hance a lot of new maneuvers become possible, especially for larger ships where commander and pilot are different persons and actually commanding a ship involves a lot of person-to-person communications.
    As for the g-forces, :artificial gravity fields: my inquisitive friend. If Caldari can manufacture torpedoes with graviton pulse generators to cause massive gravitational shockwaves, why can't gravity fields be generated inside the ships as well?
    YuuKnow
    The Scope
    #11 - 2013-02-19 05:37:58 UTC
    Faulx wrote:
    So, it occurred to me, while I was re-reading about pod goo and ship crews.


    Who wrote that silly Eve crew article? IMHO the lore is better if there were no crew at all... only the goo, onboard robots, and armies of nanites.

    yk
    Faulx
    Brother Fox Corp
    #12 - 2013-02-19 07:27:11 UTC
    Heh, they left the whole "crew aboard ship" debate up in the air for years before coming down definitively on it. From a storytelling-in-space perspective it's really quite necessary. But from a "damsel in distress" perspective any passengers you pick up in really fast ships are likely to become fatalities if they're not cryonicly frozen as soon as they board (without "inertial dampeners". If Eve is ever going to go beyond space ships (which it should) walking on ships is a good thing.
    Stitcher
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #13 - 2013-02-19 14:42:16 UTC
    Inertial stabilisers are a module in the game that increase your ship's agility. I think it's safe to assume that your ships are fitted with some version of them by default anyway otherwise accelerating to warp speeds in excess of 2,000 times the speed of light in less than 20 seconds would not only crush the crew, it'd rip the ship apart as the warp engine accelerated right out of it and left the rest of the vessel behind to become a cloud of metal shards, with some of those shards moving a good few thousand kilometers per second.

    So: EVE ships have inertial compensation fields. Probably, even the most violent combat maneuvers don't even produce enough G-forces to spill a cup of water.

    AKA Hambone

    Author of The Deathworlders
    Faulx
    Brother Fox Corp
    #14 - 2013-02-19 14:50:15 UTC
    Theoretically, warp is a whole 'nother drink of water. Warp changes the tensor metric of the space around your ship so that your normal ion/propellent based "thrusters" will more drastically alter your speed. Thus the inertial mechanics of warp are no worse than non-afterburner propulsion. The warp corridor is not unlike going through a wormhole, so, because the space around you has been (for lack of a better word) "depleted", a small "thrust" moves you through a large swath of space, while still only feeling like a small thrust.
    Stitcher
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #15 - 2013-02-19 14:53:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
    so there's your inertial compensator right there. It's established that the reason ships in EVE have a maximum speed is because their warp drive is always turned on (on the grounds that the field implodes and results in a big-ass bang that destroys the ship when the warp field generator loses power) and the warp field produces "drag" against the curvature of spacetime.

    So, the ship isn't accelerating through space so much as remaining stationary and uniformly aligned inside its own little private bubble of space/time which it then scoots around in the old fashioned way by chucking reaction mass out the back.

    Yay for applied phlebotinum!

    AKA Hambone

    Author of The Deathworlders
    Faulx
    Brother Fox Corp
    #16 - 2013-02-19 15:10:48 UTC
    The only problem with that is the 0 point: having a 0 speed retaliative to... what? You're being dragged to a "halt" sure, but dragged against what and who says that it's not moving? There is no absolute reference frame.

    Groping for explanations we might guess you're speed is being dragged to a halt relative to the largest gravitational source in the system: the local star (not that jump gates, wormholes, and Amarrian graviton drives wouldn't confuse that). But what if you're closer to a planet? Then it would be "larger", from your perspective. But, again once you're "halted", wouldn't you fall down the gravitational gradient? Drag would be very, very bad then for maintaining orbit... of course things like that would be a lot more convincing if the planets/moons were actually moving in their orbits (would make for nicer views too.. but the technical challenges of implementing it in-game are apparently... large).
    Montevius Williams
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #17 - 2013-02-21 02:56:07 UTC
    I've always thought it was due to inertia dampners. I'm sure there is some tecnobabble to explain it.

    "The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB
    Stitcher
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #18 - 2013-02-21 15:13:28 UTC
    There is a thing, it does good stuff to stop the bad stuff from happening.

    AKA Hambone

    Author of The Deathworlders
    YuuKnow
    The Scope
    #19 - 2013-02-22 00:09:51 UTC
    Faulx wrote:
    If Eve is ever going to go beyond space ships (which it should) walking on ships is a good thing.


    Meh. Too much of a Star Trek, Star Wars cliche with 'walking on ships'. Hard fiction is more interesting. CCP got it right with camera drones and pod goo. Go the way of the 'cruise liner in space' and it becomes just another rehash of the same old space operas. Better to stay unique and try hugging the unique rather than overdone and rehashed.

    yk
    Agustice Arterius
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #20 - 2013-02-22 02:23:08 UTC
    You lost me at the first number.

    I'll just say: CCP
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