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FW STILL BROKEN?
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Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#61 - 2013-02-21 16:18:19 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
What Seraph says is true. You can't defend everywhere. So in turn a group decides to patrol systems A, B, and C and the rest of it be damned.
I think that's what we've said all along. With that in mind, are you still having fun in FW?





Absolutely. I'm getting 2x as many kills as I used to. I fly with a great group. I have 3.5 billion isk in my pocket with another 2 billion in market orders pending. I was actually making more isk when Amarr was losing. I sold items at a premium quickly. The profit margins have come way down now and items take days and weeks to move.

Any further iteration of the war zone will be part of a universal 'why is holding space important' solution.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#62 - 2013-02-21 16:21:07 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Absolutely. I'm getting 2x as many kills as I used to. I fly with a great group. I have 3.5 billion isk in my pocket with another 2 billion in market orders pending. I was actually making more isk when Amarr was losing. I sold items at a premium quickly. The profit margins have come way down now and items take days and weeks to move.

Any further iteration of the war zone will be part of a universal 'why is holding space important' solution.

Thank You. You have confirmed what I've been saying all along.
Seraph Castillon
Death Metal Frogs
Ribbit.
#63 - 2013-02-21 16:55:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Seraph Castillon
Cearain wrote:
Unlike some of your corp mates you seem quite honest and upfront about how the "war" is "fought." What do you propose to fix this?


This is a dangerous question and I honestly have no real answers to it.

In my opinion there are two sides to the solution.

1) Reducing the impact of guerilla style farmers on the FW sovereignty system and their ability to gain large amounts of isk with next to no investment.

2) Pushing FW corps to take up residence in different systems across the war zone so defenders are present in any given area.


Obviously defenders need some tools to counter guerilla style farming, but almost every possible solution is a double-edged sword. I've considered many, but discarded most.

-Lets take the timer roll-back concept as an example:

A binary reset is way too simplified. It hardly requires defender presence and allows for too much griefing by neutrals. Better would be a timer pause of about 2-3 minutes after which the timer begins to rapidly move in the direction of the initial position. This allows for an actual response to the situation rather than instant defeat by reset.

-Opened complexes could slowly progress in favour of the defender when empty. By slowly I mean at least a factor ten slower than normal progression.

-Slightly reduce LP rewards. Be honest, we make more than enough. If the rewards were about 75% of what they are now they would still be enough, but farmers might start looking elsewhere.

Zarnak Wulf wrote:
What Seraph says is true. You can't defend everywhere. So in turn a group decides to patrol systems A, B, and C and the rest of it be damned.


This is how it should be, but there is not enough of it yet. FW corporations should claim a home system and project their influence over it and nearby systems. There is way too much no man's land at the moment and far too many corporations live outside to war zone.

There should be an incentive to live in a system in the war zone that is greater than having your assets be secure in a border system. For me, there already is. The fact that I can undock and start fighting is enough. For others, more is needed. An important nuance is that I believe these incentives should only apply to the corps that actually live in and defend the system, not to the militia as a whole.

Since logistics are a headache for most FW corporations that would be a good place to start looking for incentives to give. After all, we don't need extra manufacturing slots if we cannot reliably bring in the materials we need to use them.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#64 - 2013-02-21 18:40:22 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
What Seraph says is true. You can't defend everywhere. So in turn a group decides to patrol systems A, B, and C and the rest of it be damned.
I think that's what we've said all along. With that in mind, are you still having fun in FW?





Absolutely. I'm getting 2x as many kills as I used to. I fly with a great group. I have 3.5 billion isk in my pocket with another 2 billion in market orders pending. I was actually making more isk when Amarr was losing. I sold items at a premium quickly. The profit margins have come way down now and items take days and weeks to move.

Any further iteration of the war zone will be part of a universal 'why is holding space important' solution.



So everyone agrees that so long as you can dock no one cares about the sov war. I have no doubt that your getting more kills. I am getting more good fights now than I ever did in faction war. (witht the possible exception of a 2 week stint during inferno but well before the 10/22 patch.)

But about the warzone and the actual sov war. It seems like the attitude is about the same as it was before inferno. No one really cares because it is just a way to grind isk that is not as fun as the same sorts of pvp we had before. We might use a plex every now and then for strategic purposes but capturing plexes throughout the warzone is no one cares.

Do you think its a good idea to make this activity that no one cares about more important? It seems to me if it is something that players don't care about and don't really want to participate in, it should be less important. Is it good design to force players to do boring tasks?

Of course the other option is to make the sov war fun.

TLDR:
2 options
1)Either force players to do something boring by giving them consequences if they don't
Or
2) make it more fun to do

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#65 - 2013-02-21 18:42:02 UTC
Cearain wrote:

TLDR:
2 options
1)Either force players to do something boring by giving them consequences if they don't
Or
2) make it more fun to do



or

3) Give a reward for doing it, so I can make ISK in a pvp ship while waiting for a fight.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#66 - 2013-02-21 18:45:48 UTC

Zarnak Wulf wrote:
What Seraph says is true. You can't defend everywhere. So in turn a group decides to patrol systems A, B, and C and the rest of it be damned.



I think this is the crux of it.

Perhaps some additional tools could help players defend more of the space.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#67 - 2013-02-21 18:48:39 UTC
chatgris wrote:
Cearain wrote:

TLDR:
2 options
1)Either force players to do something boring by giving them consequences if they don't
Or
2) make it more fun to do



or

3) Give a reward for doing it, so I can make ISK in a pvp ship while waiting for a fight.




Sure ok let me say it this way:

1) Either force players to do something boring by giving them good things if they do and/or bad things if they dont
or
2) Make it more fun to do that thing.

If fighting is fun then, make it so there is more fighting.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#68 - 2013-02-21 18:59:32 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Seraph Castillon wrote:
...The only thing that remains to be done is to kick out the people who are only in FW to make money.

ECHO, ECHo, ECho, Echo, echo ... the number of characters in FW exclusively for moolah far outweigh all other groups so it would be a very empty and hence tedious/boring place to be were that to happen.
....



When missions were the only way to make isk we thought requiring a certain amount of vp would help this issue. We thought plexing would be more of a pvp activity than running missions. In fact, we are finding out that without something more, plexing can be as much of a pve activity as running missions.

Kills required before cashing in lp? But then we have concerns of alts being killed.

Just an idea:
Now that we have a new bounty system couldn't we fix it so your characted has to lose a certain amount of isk in ships before they can cash in? The idea being that if you are just going to kill your alts then it will cut into your profits. But people who fight and lose ships in pvp will always have loses. The idea after all is to replace ships lost in the war effort not to become space rich. Eh I don't know.

Although I agree with Seraph abotu being somewhat weary of the timer rollbacks I think that if ccp already decided to do this its a decent enough idea. Anyone know when this change is slated to come into the game?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#69 - 2013-02-21 20:06:34 UTC
Zoe Panala wrote:
Cearain wrote:


Unlike some of your corp mates you seem quite honest and upfront about how the "war" is "fought." What do you propose to fix this?


You fix it by spending time fighting in the war, and not on forums. I just killed a Condor between 2 posts here, whats your kills/posts ratio? Twisted



Your confusing the soveriegnty war with pvp. They have very little in common.

Just out of curiousity:

Was the condor in a plex?

Was the condor stabbed?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#70 - 2013-02-21 21:16:17 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Actually, most of us fight in the occupancy war every day (defending our areas, attacking others) and get tons of pvp out of it. We make a boatload of isk too. Not bad. AND we're having fun doing it.

What was your complaint?

o Occupancy warfare is not fun? Wrong.
o Nobody fights in the occupancy war? Wrong.

Your complaint is that you don't like farmers and you don't want them affecting the FW map as much as they do. That's everybody's complaint too, but it's not a deal breaker and definitely not the end of the universe.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#71 - 2013-02-21 22:13:37 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Actually, most of us fight in the occupancy war every day (defending our areas, attacking others) and get tons of pvp out of it. We make a boatload of isk too. Not bad. AND we're having fun doing it.




I and you don't fight for occupancy in more than a few systems because?


Too much of a good thing?

So much fun it would be a sin?

I mean if running around randomly shooting non blues is "defending your area" I do that too.

I don't get as much isk as you, thats true, and the isk is indeed the best reason to be in fw.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#72 - 2013-02-21 22:32:56 UTC
Cearain wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Actually, most of us fight in the occupancy war every day (defending our areas, attacking others) and get tons of pvp out of it. We make a boatload of isk too. Not bad. AND we're having fun doing it.

I and you don't fight for occupancy in more than a few systems because?
Too much of a good thing?So much fun it would be a sin?
I mean if running around randomly shooting non blues is "defending your area" I do that too.
I don't get as much isk as you, thats true, and the isk is indeed the best reason to be in fw.

First of all, you don't fight for occupancy in any system. That point aside, what does it matter how many jumps anybody makes as long as they are having fun (and fighting in the occupancy war, and getting a boatload of kills and making tons of isk)?
ALUCARD 1208
Digital Ghosts
Sedition.
#73 - 2013-02-21 22:40:33 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Actually, most of us fight in the occupancy war every day (defending our areas, attacking others) and get tons of pvp out of it. We make a boatload of isk too. Not bad. AND we're having fun doing it.

I and you don't fight for occupancy in more than a few systems because?
Too much of a good thing?So much fun it would be a sin?
I mean if running around randomly shooting non blues is "defending your area" I do that too.
I don't get as much isk as you, thats true, and the isk is indeed the best reason to be in fw.

First of all, you don't fight for occupancy in any system. That point aside, what does it matter how many jumps anybody makes as long as they are having fun (and fighting in the occupancy war, and getting a boatload of kills and making tons of isk)?



+1

BEBOPS ODE TO PERUNGA
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#74 - 2013-02-21 22:52:13 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Actually, most of us fight in the occupancy war every day (defending our areas, attacking others) and get tons of pvp out of it. We make a boatload of isk too. Not bad. AND we're having fun doing it.

I and you don't fight for occupancy in more than a few systems because?
Too much of a good thing?So much fun it would be a sin?
I mean if running around randomly shooting non blues is "defending your area" I do that too.
I don't get as much isk as you, thats true, and the isk is indeed the best reason to be in fw.



First of all, you don't fight for occupancy in any system.


Where is this fighting taking place a worm hole?

X Gallentius wrote:
[
That point aside, what does it matter how many jumps anybody makes as long as they are having fun (and fighting in the occupancy war, and getting a boatload of kills and making tons of isk)?



My point is that its a pretty far stretch to say roaming around shooting any and all non-blues is "fighting for occupancy." Even before inferno I would go inside plexes and shoot people but I didn't claim I was "fighting for occupancy," neither did they. There were about 6 people with alts who were truly "fighting" for occupancy.

Now that number has grown because you make allot of isk at it. But what you actually do to effectively "fight" for occupancy has not changed, its still not "fighting" at all. Given all the stabs and warp aways its better described as "unfighting" or "peacing for occupancy."

The concern is not about the number of random nonblues we kill either.

The problem is that there is a huge gap between the pvp in fw and the occupancy war. That is why faction war was broken before inferno and that problem still exists. The fact that no one really cares about occupancy other than a few systems - if that - demonstrates its broken.

You, of course, never thought faction war was broken even before inferno. So I am not surprised you still think everything is working as intended.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Gah'Matar
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#75 - 2013-02-21 22:53:43 UTC
qijong jin wrote:

1: 50% of contested state should be on the basis of kills between opposing militias within a system(no more no less)
2; 30% of contested state based on plexing, further plexing gives u no gains to % of contested state.
3: 20% of contested state based on dust content.


Awesome idea mate! I'll just roll a minnie noob alt and farm his noobship / shuttle / unfit t1 frig losses until the system is contested. I reckon 45 minutes should do the trick to fully contest a system with ~100 kills.
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2013-02-21 23:26:32 UTC
I like the current plexing system for a few reasons

-you can do it in a 100% pvp fit ship, unlike most missions. Or most other moneymaking activities.
-you're earning money while waiting for targets to show up, or your fleet to assemble, or what have you
-the gate restrictions seems to keep the size of ships involved much smaller than would be the case otherwise, which is nice when all you can fly is a frigate

I guess I should be annoyed that people that aren't me are making lots of money for little investment,, but then I'd have to hate lots of people in Eve.
If you can find a way to change plexing while keeping all the advantages, good on ya.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#77 - 2013-02-21 23:28:51 UTC
Cearain wrote:
My point is that its a pretty far stretch to say roaming around shooting any and all non-blues is "fighting for occupancy."
That wasn't your point. But in any case, yes we (my corp) do fight for occupancy every day and we get massive numbers of kills and losses going up against WTs while doing so. If we didn't fight for occupancy, we'd be forced to live somewhere else.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2013-02-21 23:31:24 UTC
Gah'Matar wrote:
qijong jin wrote:

1: 50% of contested state should be on the basis of kills between opposing militias within a system(no more no less)
2; 30% of contested state based on plexing, further plexing gives u no gains to % of contested state.
3: 20% of contested state based on dust content.


Awesome idea mate! I'll just roll a minnie noob alt and farm his noobship / shuttle / unfit t1 frig losses until the system is contested. I reckon 45 minutes should do the trick to fully contest a system with ~100 kills.


Having weighted fixed proportions is probably a bad idea but VP for kills has some merit. There is already a formula to calculate LP for kills, using a similar calculation should ensure any losses need to be hefty to make a real difference, Noob ships could be excluded, they already cannot enter plexes.

Not much you can do if someone wants to lose an alt titan to push the contested percentage up by 50% but perhaps we would all take that hit to get on that kill. Anyway it could be capped per ship at a set value.

It’s not a fix but it puts a little more emphasis on PVP results.

My only concern is that it might encourage camping gates/stations over moving around plexing, perhaps restrict it to inside plexes if possible.

Double points if they are stabbed. Big smile
Lin Suizei
#79 - 2013-02-21 23:55:55 UTC
Seraph Castillon wrote:
-Lets take the timer roll-back concept as an example:

A binary reset is way too simplified. It hardly requires defender presence and allows for too much griefing by neutrals. Better would be a timer pause of about 2-3 minutes after which the timer begins to rapidly move in the direction of the initial position. This allows for an actual response to the situation rather than instant defeat by reset.


What "griefing" are you referring to?

I think a binary reset is actually pretty fair - it allows FW opponents and neutrals to work together and hurt cloaky/stabbed plex farmers and people who use opposing faction alts in a plex (i.e. your gallente main and caldari alt are parked in the same gallente defensive plex, with the caldari alt 100km away. if I drive your main off, you lose the plex instantly), hopefully driving them out of faction war, especially in "off-peak" timezones such as after DT.

Forcing neutrals and FW players to wait for 2-3 mins in a plex to hurt a plex farmer doesn't seem like it'd be fun for either party.

Lol I can't delete my forum sig.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#80 - 2013-02-22 00:23:57 UTC
Lin Suizei wrote:
Seraph Castillon wrote:
-Lets take the timer roll-back concept as an example:

A binary reset is way too simplified. It hardly requires defender presence and allows for too much griefing by neutrals. Better would be a timer pause of about 2-3 minutes after which the timer begins to rapidly move in the direction of the initial position. This allows for an actual response to the situation rather than instant defeat by reset.


What "griefing" are you referring to?

I think a binary reset is actually pretty fair - it allows FW opponents and neutrals to work together and hurt cloaky/stabbed plex farmers and people who use opposing faction alts in a plex (i.e. your gallente main and caldari alt are parked in the same gallente defensive plex, with the caldari alt 100km away. if I drive your main off, you lose the plex instantly), hopefully driving them out of faction war, especially in "off-peak" timezones such as after DT.

Forcing neutrals and FW players to wait for 2-3 mins in a plex to hurt a plex farmer doesn't seem like it'd be fun for either party.



I think ccp indicated they would just have the timer start counting back to neutral.

I think they are planning on having it count back to neutral (0) if you leave for any reason.

Personally I would prefer it, if it was worse if you warp off when someone lands on grid with you or the accel gate, before you warp. That way if someone leaves because they are looking for pvp they won't be unduly punished.

Lots of people have alts on both sides so taking allot of time off the clock for chasing out an alt won't work. But I think immediately docking 1 or 2 minutes for a warp of or cloak would be reasonable and not worth bringing in alts. Then have the timer count back regular time.

I agree allowing the locals/neutrals to effect fw is a good thing and vice versa to an extent.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815