Ships & Modules

Liang that post wasn't aimed at you, because for the most part I agree. My views on armor are based on what I've experienced, and it may well be possible that the AAR and rig changes will suddenly make armor fits viable, but we're arguing theorycrafting and metagame bullshit here, because it's what we do, you of all people should know that

Bouh:
Active tanks not reducing speed is indeed a nice change, but the advantage will still go to shields for speed, for the same reason the damage advantage does. I will however admit that this change is a HUGE step in the right direction, as I've said a few times in this thread already. The nano-brawler deimos I was tested on sisi a while back (mind you this was the last time they said they were removing the speed penalty from active armor rigs, so it was a while back) needed 2 (mayybe it was 1, but I'm pretty sure it was 2) speed mods in the lows to really work. They make a difference, and a fairly large one, especially when speed/GTFOability is your main defence (as is usually the case with non-bait active tanks)

Now the myrm; you're honestly going to bring up a ship with an armor tank bonus, but that is just as good shield tanked, as an example of how the 2 are balanced? Really?

The slot issue goes back to my initial question; if shields and armor are balanced at the active level, then why are armor buffers not overpowered?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: The ASB should have been an armor mod to begin, and shields should have been given that hardener thing whose name always escapes me.

Let us examine the case of the Dual XL ASB Myrmidon. We'll use Crystals, Blue pill, and a Tengu Link. This is the fit:

[Myrmidon, ASB Myrmidon]
Damage Control II
Co-Processor II
Co-Processor II
Co-Processor II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400

200mm AutoCannon II, Hail S
200mm AutoCannon II, Hail S
200mm AutoCannon II, Hail S
200mm AutoCannon II, Hail S
200mm AutoCannon II, Hail S

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I


Ogre II x4

The important stats:
- 16k Shield EHP
- 6.4k DPS Peak Tank (24 seconds, 195421 EHP)
- 3.2k DPS Tank (48 seconds, 196,333 EHP)
- 717 DPS

Now, one thing to note is that the Myrm is going to take 17.7k damage between shield reps. You can mitigate this by perfectly timing your boost cycles, but this is somewhat unrealistic. For that reason, we'll focus on taking 3000 DPS. We expect the Myrm to do just dandy until it runs out of cap boosters at T=48, and it will promptly die at T=62*.

Let us now consider a triple rep Myrm:

[Myrmidon, Electron Triple Rep]
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Void M

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Nanobot Accelerator I


Ogre II x4

The important Stats:
- 21k Armor EHP
- 3134 DPS Peak Tank (33 seconds, 206080 EHP)
- 629 DPS

Between rep cycles we can reasonably expect to see 12.5k damage come through, which leaves us at half armor. This is reasonable and we don't have to worry as much about timing. Thus, we expect to see the Myrm do just fine until it runs out of nanite charges on the MAAR at T=33 seconds. Shortly thereafter the reps will need to be un-overloaded and the tank drops to 1751. We expect to see a pretty explosion 24 seconds* later at T = 57 seconds.

But what about the whole trade-ASB thing? Well, since the nerf the Myrm can't do that nearly as effectively. It looks like that should work up to about 1500 DPS, and the Myrm will stay standing as long as it has cap boosters. On the flip side, the Armor Myrm handles this situation even better.

The biggest difference between them is that you can absolutely expect to take neuting if you're facing 3k DPS... and the ASB Myrm just handles that better than the MAAR Myrm. But still, it's not a bad performance from a triple rep MAAR brick.

-Liang

* Continuous approximation of a discrete simulation.

Ed: I suppose another difference is that the ASB Myrm doesn't handle nearly so well without those Crystals. The Armor Myrm is just almost unquestionably superior at that point.

Corrected MAAR time

Dual Rep incursus is a LM waiting to happen. They have a very limit engagement profile. I love hunting them down.

It definately doesn't take 2 merlins to kill one.

Dual Rep Incursus kill

Another one

And another one

Not posting these to brag, more to show that these ships are not that hard to kill in a variety of other ships.

This probably not the best example to show that armour tankings is fine tbh. Now rail brawling incursus with single SAR.....different argument altogether.

You're a bit defensive but ok, I would be too if I got all the **** you get in this thread. Just to say, I fly shield way more than armor, and I appreciate the utility I can use like TD when I do, but that is always passive armor. You know this already, but passive is not the same story as active.

Midslots are not more worth than a lowslot when comparing shield and armor ships, simply because a shield ship will never have less than 5 mids, excluding frigates. You can still get full tackle and the biggest tank of all BC's on a Drake for example.

In the case of the Myrmidon, you would think that 5 mids would give great utility. Well damn, it doesn't at all. You get full tackle, which is great, but then the two other mids have to be used up for 2 medium sized cap boosters (you can't use your 2 small boosters in your example above, they won't run the tank at all) while every lowslot are used up for tanking.

So the problem here is clearly that on active tanking armor is behind simply because we have to use up as many midslots as shield tank has too, just in the form of boosters, while still using up every lowslot too, while the shield tankers can use them for damage and still have as good or better tank.

Just to finish off on this, I'm not a butthurt armortanker, I can soon fly any sub BS ship, but I would like more variety, but as it is now, you either go shield buffer, armor buffer or ASB.

EDIT:

Also, the argument that an AAR uses nanite paste for fuel so you can carry a lot more reloads than an ASB, does not hold any water. Why? because we also have to carry our cargo full with navy 800's to keep the AAR and the two other reps running.

The fact that we are discussing the balance on a myrm is stupid. It's an armor bonused hull ffs, and still we can't agree on whether ASB og AAR is the better form of tank. Lets put the same logic on a Cyclone, then lets have a talk...

Well, I do agree that it is better as an armor tanker. My problem is that it takes 8 slots to be better than a 2 slot shield tank. On my phone atm, I'll eft up when I get to work.

Edit, I also have a problem with the fact that those 2 slots cant be used for utility because of boosters.

I honestly can't say which one I like better.

Edit: In a 1v1 the armor fit will win when asb hits reload, but in a small fast gang I might want the dps on the shield fit.

Edit 2: I would have gone as far as to say that armor vs shield tanking is approaching balance. There is one thing stopping me. And that is the use of multiple ASB's which ruins the balance. Make it a maximum of one just like the armor modules, and I will be happy

You are forgetting the reload of death : when the ASB are empty, your ASB myrm is dead whereas the triple rep myrm can choose between a half tank for one minute or a little better until the end of the fight.

Liang study is good, even without boosters and links.

I like how you talk about it being a "whole 18 seconds longer" (30% more) and then compare the "51% more burst tank". All you are interested in doing is twisting whatever the outcome is until there is no possible way that shields is superior to armor. That is to say: that armor is overpowered.

-Liang

So, are you complaining about armor tanking in general (which kinda rox), shield tanking in general (which is meh), or just throwing out numbers to impress the ladies??

Cuz, your post is seriously "meh" and shows you might not know how to Eve (ie "lrn2eve")...