These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Rise in Suicide Ganking?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#21 - 2013-02-15 09:55:03 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Exhumer ganks are at a record low.


I have a lot of exhumers for you to gank.

- Only exhumers
- Untanked (I promise)
- Not talking about Skiffs (I promise)

Did I mention that those exhumers are not max buffer Skiffs?

Deal?

Only hulks are profitable when untanked.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#22 - 2013-02-15 09:57:40 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
why would we? you already said it's unprofitable to gank a hulk with 16k+ehp, and you can get that from a max yield fit. what is there to change?

if it's unprofitable to gank that, then you're evidently only ganking me for the lulz, and if lulz is what you want no amount of tank is going to save me is it?

Why would miners change, indeed?
Forum Whine-tank seems to work pretty well in light of recent CCP buffs to Concord and EHP.

Untanked 'mining ships' now have significantly more EHP than untanked T2 and T1 Combat ships.

A Procurer costs 7 Million ISK, and has almost 30K EHP untanked. Yeah, makes sense. What?

Turning on your CCP-Faction Invulns saves lives.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#23 - 2013-02-15 10:17:23 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:



A Procurer costs 7 Million ISK, and has almost 30K EHP untanked. Yeah, makes sense. What?

Fun fact. My arbi with a 1600 plate has less tank than an untanked procurer. It also barely out tanks an untanked mack which now has a bigger base EHP than the heavy assault ships.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#24 - 2013-02-15 10:40:48 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:



A Procurer costs 7 Million ISK, and has almost 30K EHP untanked. Yeah, makes sense. What?

Fun fact. My arbi with a 1600 plate has less tank than an untanked procurer. It also barely out tanks an untanked mack which now has a bigger base EHP than the heavy assault ships.

Fun fact, your Arbi (A t1 Ewar cruiser....) has enough PG to fit a 1600 Plate. A T2 Barge, does not.
If you want to take the raw EHP away from barges, then give them that PG and let them choose to fit the plate or fit an MLU.
Give the T1 Barges more than 1 Mid slot.
Then you can start to complain about their raw EHP.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2013-02-15 10:43:01 UTC
I haven't noticed anything like this.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#26 - 2013-02-15 10:55:38 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:



A Procurer costs 7 Million ISK, and has almost 30K EHP untanked. Yeah, makes sense. What?

Fun fact. My arbi with a 1600 plate has less tank than an untanked procurer. It also barely out tanks an untanked mack which now has a bigger base EHP than the heavy assault ships.

Fun fact, your Arbi (A t1 Ewar cruiser....) has enough PG to fit a 1600 Plate. A T2 Barge, does not.
If you want to take the raw EHP away from barges, then give them that PG and let them choose to fit the plate or fit an MLU.
Give the T1 Barges more than 1 Mid slot.
Then you can start to complain about their raw EHP.

You could easily tank all three exhumers way past the point of being unprofitable pre buff. The irony here is that we were calling for a PG/CPU buff not an EHP buff.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#27 - 2013-02-15 10:59:27 UTC

I guess the thing that just sticks in my craw the most is that CCP essentially redesigned these ships around terrible and/or lazy play.

Whatever people think about ganking, its an active process. Gankers are actually 'playing' the game. Gankers need to know exactly how the game works - how to deal with Concord, how to assess a target, how to compromise those fits, how to work as a team. On top of handling logistics and 'white knights'. All at our expense in terms of extra accounts, ISK and effort.
Catalysts and Tornados weren't designed for gankers. Orca's weren't designed for ninjas. But we MADE them work, and when CCP discovered it, they nerfed them.

Miners? CCP came to the conclusion that they just weren't going to learn how to tank, so gave it to them for free.
They wanted AFK ISK -so gave them huge cargo capability - also for free. Bots and multiboxers multiply.
Except for the poor Hulk, left behind. Now its almost extinct and prices crashed from 300M to 200M on them overnight.

Flawed, rushed rebalance, all built around the refusal of miners to even learn the basics.

It would be like Vagabond pilots whining about losing too many Vagabonds, crying for 3x as much speed, and then getting it, even if it makes no sense.
Tora Bushido
Commonwealth Mercenaries
BLACKFLAG.
#28 - 2013-02-15 10:59:38 UTC
Yeh, highsec isnt as safe as most expect it to be Twisted If you want to be safe, goto nul sec, as our targets often say Blink

DELETE THE WEAK, ADAPT OR DIE !

Meta Gaming Level VII, Psycho Warfare Level X, Smack Talk Level VII.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-02-15 11:29:54 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
You could easily tank all three exhumers way past the point of being unprofitable pre buff. The irony here is that we were calling for a PG/CPU buff not an EHP buff.


One Catalyst could easily destroy tanked Retriever and have time to get tanked Procurer to structure after that.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#30 - 2013-02-15 11:37:45 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:


Except for the poor Hulk, left behind. Now its almost extinct and prices crashed from 300M to 200M on them overnight.




Right up until you said this..... you might have had some credibility.
But CCP's graphs released a week ago show the Hulk is still the money maker of the exhumers overall, hauling in large quantities of ore consistantly.
Of course, they happen to be doing this in null sec, in grav sites, out of your high sec 'elite PvPers' sight....
So you ignore the actual facts and simply go off the High Sec Ice belts for what exists.
Ore miners are never AFK, they may be 'AFW' for 60 second intervals sometimes, who wouldn't be when faced with that boring a cycle for hours on end. But never AFK for anything significant, or their mining stops.
Ice Miners are the only people this accusation has basis against.

So..... maybe, just maybe.... you are badly biased on this subject. And CCP had a point behind what they did.
Probably they based EHP numbers to avoid Barges fitting all sorts of non mining related modules, thats my guess. Since we can imagine a 1000 PWG, 400 CPU Procurer being used for all sorts of things I'm sure. Not to say it's not actually my prefered option.

But... we can just imagine there are really 2 more lows & 2 more mids on every barge and that they are auto fitted with plates & extenders on every barge instead. And then they are fitted for tank :P.

Was it 'lazy'. Not by CCP, I'm quite sure they will have gamed out 10,000 scenarios as part of their balancing. Was it lazy by miners? I'm sure most miners would love more flexibility & more slots to fit modules into.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#31 - 2013-02-15 11:39:59 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
You could easily tank all three exhumers way past the point of being unprofitable pre buff. The irony here is that we were calling for a PG/CPU buff not an EHP buff.


One Catalyst could easily destroy tanked Retriever and have time to get tanked Procurer to structure after that.


You overestimate the glorious power of the Catalyst, a properly tanked Procuror can hit close to 62k EHP and will quite happily shrug off multiple Catalysts to survive way past Concord response time.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#32 - 2013-02-15 11:40:52 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Kate stark wrote:

why would we? you already said it's unprofitable to gank a hulk with 16k+ehp, and you can get that from a max yield fit. what is there to change?

if it's unprofitable to gank that, then you're evidently only ganking me for the lulz, and if lulz is what you want no amount of tank is going to save me is it?


Why would miners change, indeed?
Forum Whine-tank seems to work pretty well in light of recent CCP buffs to Concord and EHP.

Untanked 'mining ships' now have significantly more EHP than untanked T2 and T1 Combat ships.

A Procurer costs 7 Million ISK, and has almost 30K EHP untanked. Yeah, makes sense. What?



They /should/ cost around 24-25 million. The 7 million is an artifact of the massive stocks produced before the buff.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-02-15 11:43:53 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
You could easily tank all three exhumers way past the point of being unprofitable pre buff. The irony here is that we were calling for a PG/CPU buff not an EHP buff.


One Catalyst could easily destroy tanked Retriever and have time to get tanked Procurer to structure after that.


You overestimate the glorious power of the Catalyst, a properly tanked Procuror can hit close to 62k EHP and will quite happily shrug off multiple Catalysts to survive way past Concord response time.


Nope, at least not without officer mods.

Keywords: pre buff
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#34 - 2013-02-15 11:59:21 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:


Keywords: pre buff


Oops

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#35 - 2013-02-15 12:06:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Herr Wilkus
Nevyn Auscent wrote:


Right up until you said this..... you might have had some credibility.
But CCP's graphs released a week ago show the Hulk is still the money maker of the exhumers overall, hauling in large quantities of ore consistantly.
Of course, they happen to be doing this in null sec, in grav sites, out of your high sec 'elite PvPers' sight....
So you ignore the actual facts and simply go off the High Sec Ice belts for what exists.
Ore miners are never AFK, they may be 'AFW' for 60 second intervals sometimes, who wouldn't be when faced with that boring a cycle for hours on end. But never AFK for anything significant, or their mining stops.
Ice Miners are the only people this accusation has basis against.


Was it 'lazy'. Not by CCP, I'm quite sure they will have gamed out 10,000 scenarios as part of their balancing. Was it lazy by miners? I'm sure most miners would love more flexibility & more slots to fit modules into.


I based my anal-sis on two things.

A) Market value of Hulks crashed by 1/3rd - while build costs and gankability stayed the same. Clear fall in demand.
B) My own experience roaming high sec, ice belts and asteroid fields. Can't speak for nullsec.

Hulks, of course, die on sight - but you simply don't see them very often. And I get the feeling that quite a few of them are 'Legacy Hulks' - as many are STILL FIT with cargo expanders and Cargo rigs. Relics that are disappearing from highsec as we find them and/or products of low-information miners who read an obsolete guide and still think 'Hulk is the best!'

I generally see 70% Mackinaws and Retrievers if not more. If a system has been dealing with sustained ganking operations you start to see Skiffs and Procs, and a smattering of hard-tanked Macks. Hulks are a rare treat found occasionally in belts. Don't think I've seen a single Covetor yet.
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#36 - 2013-02-15 12:17:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
My alt uses one that has a small shield booster, invulnerably field, two extenders in the rigs and a damage control in the lows. It's cap stable, so they run permanently. Also, the chap who gives us boosts has maxed shield and armour boost.

My alt, despite being an indy character, has his tank skills all on 4 and the occasional 5 as well. Tank is important, especially, for a miner. Make sure to get your cap skills up as well so you can run your tank mods permanently.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#37 - 2013-02-15 12:43:04 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
My alt uses one that has a small shield booster, invulnerably field, two extenders in the rigs and a damage control in the lows. It's cap stable, so they run permanently. Also, the chap who gives us boosts has maxed shield and armour boost.

My alt, despite being an indy character, has his tank skills all on 4 and the occasional 5 as well. Tank is important, especially, for a miner. Make sure to get your cap skills up as well so you can run your tank mods permanently.


Well we should add that you also need to have proper skills to tank a T2 (!!!!!) exhumer.
Frankly, before you can not tank it (that includes cap stability ergo all energy skills...) you should not fly it.
As for why I am seeing T1 fitted T2 miners at all....I really do not know...stop complaining

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#38 - 2013-02-15 12:53:21 UTC
Here's to all miners: Train up to get the Hull Tanking, Elite certificate. Make it public. Fit a damage control.

This way you let suicide monkeys know that you are no simple piñata and they will look for easier targets elsewhere.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#39 - 2013-02-15 13:36:29 UTC
Dexen Echerie wrote:
So for months and months, everything was cool. Mining in Hi-sec was just fine, and suicide ganking was rare (at least in the systems i mined in).

My friends and I decied to move our operation to a different system, just for a change of pace, but noticed quite a bit of suicide ganking going on there, so we moved about 25 jumps away, back to our old neighborhood. Then yesterday, outta nowhere (and completely out of character for the system) my mining gang gets suicide ganked. They only got once of us, but still, kinda lame.

I know it happens, wasn't even all that surprised. What got me was when today, we got hit AGAIN in a different system. Same M.O., though I didn't recognize any of the names from the day before...

This isn't so much a (edited to: complaining) post as it is a question...

Anyone else noticing a rise in suicide ganking lately? Or have I just been unlucky?


Random Suicide Gank Generator is Random.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#40 - 2013-02-15 13:37:08 UTC
Dexen Echerie wrote:
Anyone else noticing a rise in suicide ganking lately? Or have I just been unlucky?


Yes I get a rise out of suicide g.... wait, what?