These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

James 315 - An Apology and an Appeal
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#161 - 2013-02-15 02:57:27 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:

Your assumption here is that CCP is after growth is not proven



Its really hard to move past this statement and then take you seriously. Sorry, no offense meant.
None taken. You based an argument on unproven suposition, something that I felt compelled to point out.

In any case it is not relevant to the discussion at hand. This is not about CCP, it is about ourselves.

Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#162 - 2013-02-15 02:58:38 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
Varius Xeral wrote:
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Adventure requires you to go out into the unknown too seek danger and forutune, not just stepping out the front door.


Nope, danger is supposed to exist everywhere in Eve. You are never supposed to feel perfectly safe and relaxed while undocked...or even while docked in some cases.


Unless you are in wide sections of null sec, then you are pretty much safe as can be to farm away at the risk free isk making activities. They can even do that AFK which allows for more time to head to the forums and blame High Sec, risk averse, carebears for the downfall of Eve online and allow alts to start up ganking corps and run for CSM.

Amazing really.

Let's remove concord, then highsec can enjoy null's level of safety.


Well at least someone is finally being honest.

This is one of the things at the core of the argument. The big power blocks would love nothing more than to have control over everything or gimp high sec to drive alliances to "rent" space from them in null sec or feed their killboards further increasing their "risk free" income.

Not fooling anyone.
Not about the "future of the game"
Ia about personal and alliance power and wealth.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#163 - 2013-02-15 02:58:59 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
Dismiss this all you want to citing mechanics within individual expansions instead of seeing the reality as high sec has been slowly morphed into what it is today and correlating that with the steady rise in subscriptions and where that population growth resides in the galaxy. The long term numbers say all that needs to be said.
Cool so we can also pretend Incarna was a big success because like you say, subs are greater now then they were in the past.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#164 - 2013-02-15 02:59:05 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Your assumption here is that CCP is after growth is not proven, they are not a public company and answer to only themselves. And in any case having more data doesn't guarantee that a company will make the "correct" decisions. History is full of companies and people who had all the answers and still didn't achieve their objectives..


Correction. CCP is answerable to Novator Partner and General Catalyst Partners.

source

If either of those owners do not like the rate of return that CCP gives, I'm sure they they can pull the strings to demand changes.

This means CCP will do what they think will get them the greatest profit in their niche of an MMO. That means catering to playstyles that maybe different than yours in order to maximize profit.

Don't like it? Vote communist and nationalize CCP.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Hedion's oracle
Naari LLC
#165 - 2013-02-15 03:01:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Hedion's oracle
Sariah Kion wrote:
Varius Xeral wrote:
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Adventure requires you to go out into the unknown too seek danger and forutune, not just stepping out the front door.


Nope, danger is supposed to exist everywhere in Eve. You are never supposed to feel perfectly safe and relaxed while undocked...or even while docked in some cases.


Unless you are in wide sections of null sec, then you are pretty much safe as can be to farm away at the risk free isk making activities. They can even do that AFK which allows for more time to head to the forums and blame High Sec, risk averse, carebears for the downfall of Eve online and allow alts to start up ganking corps and run for CSM.

Amazing really.


It really is amazing since the argument is being made by the ones bluing up all of Null to be safe, really guys that dog won't hunt anymore. Fact is null sucks and why? Because you made it that way by following dear Leaders agenda which we all no has nothing to do with the game and more about putting coin in there pockets. Miner bumping? I mean wtf is that? sounds like something a child with too much time on there hands would do, seriously grow the f**k up Roll

Error: Working As intended
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#166 - 2013-02-15 03:01:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
Dismiss this all you want to citing mechanics within individual expansions instead of seeing the reality as high sec has been slowly morphed into what it is today and correlating that with the steady rise in subscriptions and where that population growth resides in the galaxy. The long term numbers say all that needs to be said.
Cool so we can also pretend Incarna was a big success because like you say, subs are greater now then they were in the past.


I've been seeing numbers as high as 58,000 users online over the past few weekends. Wouldn't you say that is pretty healthy numbers compared to a few years ago? Say 2009?

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Tesal
#167 - 2013-02-15 03:01:47 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
In recent years Eve has moved away from being a game towards being a spectator sport. This may well be good for revenue, it is however not good for the game.


EvE has always been a spectator sport.
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#168 - 2013-02-15 03:02:08 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:

Your assumption here is that CCP is after growth is not proven



Its really hard to move past this statement and then take you seriously. Sorry, no offense meant.
None taken. You based an argument on unproven suposition, something that I felt compelled to point out.

In any case it is not relevant to the discussion at hand. This is not about CCP, it is about ourselves.



It IS about CCP though.

The backbone of the platform, and more specifically this thread, is changes made under the hood by CCP to avert the same outcome as what happened to Ultima Online.

The players either do or dont according to the rules laid out by CCP. It has been presented multiple times that this development "path" is bad for the game.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#169 - 2013-02-15 03:03:40 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:


Let's remove concord, then highsec can enjoy null's level of safety.


Well at least someone is finally being honest.

This is one of the things at the core of the argument. The big power blocks would love nothing more than to have control over everything or gimp high sec to drive alliances to "rent" space from them in null sec or feed their killboards further increasing their "risk free" income.

Not fooling anyone.
Not about the "future of the game"
Ia about personal and alliance power and wealth.

Nah, it's just pointing out how silly your little argument is. I mean, if nullsec is safer then highsec, like you say, then we can all make highsec safer by removing concord. After all, it's supposed to be the 'safe zone'.
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#170 - 2013-02-15 03:04:40 UTC
Vaeliel wrote:
THE APOLOGY

James, I'm sorry.

Roll

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#171 - 2013-02-15 03:05:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
Dismiss this all you want to citing mechanics within individual expansions instead of seeing the reality as high sec has been slowly morphed into what it is today and correlating that with the steady rise in subscriptions and where that population growth resides in the galaxy. The long term numbers say all that needs to be said.
Cool so we can also pretend Incarna was a big success because like you say, subs are greater now then they were in the past.


I've been seeing numbers as high as 58,000 users online over the past few weekends. Wouldn't you say that is pretty health numbers compared to a few years ago? Say 2009?

Coincidentally CCP has been rolling out multiple expansions based around emergent content and PvP and nothing to do with carebear catering PvE expansions like Incursions and Tyrannis for over the past year +, with CCP Seagull saying there's no stop to this trend in sight.

I would say those numbers are good, I agree, almost double from the day when CCP listening to risk-averse carebears nearly killed EVE. Hopefully CCP can continue by removing anti-EVE/anti-emergent content mechanics like NPC corps and wardec evasion and the numbers will continue to rise.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#172 - 2013-02-15 03:05:57 UTC
Good games all have a sense of accomplishment, some risk, puzzles to figure out and the chance to do so in direct competition with other players. Perhaps many of the people who subscribe to Eve are after only entertainment and not a game. But i don't think so.

And if it is true that the people in Eve want a game and not spectator sport then perhaps the lowest common denominator of false achievement and pretty graphics is not the best way to go for anyone. Even if it is the clearest, safest, most agreeable direction.
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#173 - 2013-02-15 03:06:56 UTC
Hedion's oracle wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
Varius Xeral wrote:
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Adventure requires you to go out into the unknown too seek danger and forutune, not just stepping out the front door.


Nope, danger is supposed to exist everywhere in Eve. You are never supposed to feel perfectly safe and relaxed while undocked...or even while docked in some cases.


Unless you are in wide sections of null sec, then you are pretty much safe as can be to farm away at the risk free isk making activities. They can even do that AFK which allows for more time to head to the forums and blame High Sec, risk averse, carebears for the downfall of Eve online and allow alts to start up ganking corps and run for CSM.

Amazing really.


It really is amazing since the argument is being made by the ones bluing up all of Null to be safe, really guys that dog won't hunt anymore. Fact is null sucks and why? Because you made it that way by following dear Leaders agenda which we all no has nothing to do with the game and more about putting coin in there pockets. Miner bumping? I mean wtf is that? sounds like something a child with too much time on there hands would do, seriously grow the f**k up Roll


They just look silly when they make these arguments of high sec and the players there being risk averse. Its no secret how and why null sec is carebear candy land now.

If they REALLY cared about the game they would be pushing for sweeping changes to null and sov....but that would really screw with their risk free income,

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#174 - 2013-02-15 03:06:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Simon Louvaki wrote:


Did you read the part where he claims all of High Sec as his space and how he will issue force whenever he *thinks* your afk or not? I could be taking a **** while mining and he would say I was afk mining. The New Order is an extorsion racket with a cult mentality. I might actually take him somewhat seriously if he didn't demand you pay him money.


If you're taking a dump while mining, you are afk mining, afk means away from keyboard, sitting on the pan is away from keyboard, unless of course you play on a laptop and take it with you.

Saraih Kion wrote:
I dont care if they are AFK making isk in bunker like null sec. Just dont come and ***** about "risk averse" anything especially in response to income generation. There are HOARDS of players in null alliances who dont know didly about risk since joining their friends or coprs in null sec after their alliances have held sov for a while.

Bored Null Sec alts ganking and griefing high sec under the guise of concern for the future of the game. I doint know whats worse, that you think people really buy into that or if the people white knighting the cause really believe they are "saving eve"

Its so transparent that I can believe some still trot the tired arguments and ad hominems out still.


Nowhere in this thread have I mentioned the term "risk averse", and for your information out of all the people I've met while supporting the New Order, very few are null sec alts, I'd go so far as to say that a large number are null and lowsec mains, with the remainder being made up of highsec players, some are highsec gankers by nature, some are highsec miners who are having a laugh removing their competition from the field, while others like myself were bored with highsec and have already lived in wormholes, roamed through lowsec and annoyed the incumbents in null.

I disagree with a lot of James' CSM manifesto, I've said as much both in this thread and on the blog, I personally don't think highsec needs nerfing into the ground, I do however believe that both nullsec and lowsec need a significant buff so that they become viable places to do something other than blob each other or dock up everytime a red appears in local.

There is a reason that so many lowsec and nullsec players have highsec alts to make their isk, all the infrastructure for industry is much more accessible in highsec, mining in highsec is relatively safe if you're actually paying attention, PvE in highsec is also relatively safe if you have even the vaguest understanding of aggression mechanics, the same goes for hauling and pretty much every other activity you can do in highsec.

[off on a tangent]
If, for example, players were given the tools to upgrade the industrial infrastructure in both nullsec and lowsec so that it could compete with highsec in terms of production and cost, maybe by allowing them to increase the amount of research/copy/manufacturing slots available to them via a system control mechanic, while I'm aware that this can already be done using a POS and that there are industry upgrades available for Sov null I'm not au fait with how the null upgrade system actually works and I doubt it includes the kind of upgrades I'm talking about.

If more people start doing highsec type stuff in lowsec and nullsec and CCP allow us, the players, to control certain aspects of it, then they become viable alternatives to having an alt in highsec. The side benefit is that with more players comes greater security, lowsec and NPC null corporations involved in stuff that is currently done in highsec would have to organise their own security forces to clean out the current inhabitants that like to prey on them. [/off on a tangent]

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#175 - 2013-02-15 03:12:34 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Good games all have a sense of accomplishment, some risk, puzzles to figure out and the chance to do so in direct competition with other players. Perhaps many of the people who subscribe to Eve are after only entertainment and not a game. But i don't think so.

And if it is true that the people in Eve want a game and not spectator sport then perhaps the lowest common denominator of false achievement and pretty graphics is not the best way to go for anyone. Even if it is the clearest, safest, most agreeable direction.



Then chase your accomplishment. Nothing is stopping you. Why do you get to dictate what is game and just entertainment to others? Maybe scanning down grav sites is personally rewarding, maybe beating some rivals in the station trading game is personally rewarding?

This is mostly an argument of folks looking through very narrow lenses at the situation. Whether that is intentional to manipulate the meta game in their favor or simply because some cant or wont see things through a broader views.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#176 - 2013-02-15 03:15:06 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:


If you're taking a dump while mining, you are afk mining, afk means away from keyboard, sitting on the pan is away from keyboard, unless of course you play on a laptop and take it with you.


The idea that one should have to stop the entire game just to take a leak is silly. To be punished for natural body functions is even more so. James wants nothing more than to be a tool and force people to pay him for being one. Now for someone who is off at the grocery store and is afk/bot mining thats a different story. The issue remains James makes no distinction between 'afk I've got to crap' and 'afk I just wanna make money without playing the game'.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#177 - 2013-02-15 03:17:04 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Simon Louvaki wrote:


Did you read the part where he claims all of High Sec as his space and how he will issue force whenever he *thinks* your afk or not? I could be taking a **** while mining and he would say I was afk mining. The New Order is an extorsion racket with a cult mentality. I might actually take him somewhat seriously if he didn't demand you pay him money.


If you're taking a dump while mining, you are afk mining, afk means away from keyboard, sitting on the pan is away from keyboard, unless of course you play on a laptop and take it with you.

Saraih Kion wrote:
I dont care if they are AFK making isk in bunker like null sec. Just dont come and ***** about "risk averse" anything especially in response to income generation. There are HOARDS of players in null alliances who dont know didly about risk since joining their friends or coprs in null sec after their alliances have held sov for a while.

Bored Null Sec alts ganking and griefing high sec under the guise of concern for the future of the game. I doint know whats worse, that you think people really buy into that or if the people white knighting the cause really believe they are "saving eve"

Its so transparent that I can believe some still trot the tired arguments and ad hominems out still.


Nowhere in this thread have I mentioned the term "risk averse", and for your information out of all the people I've met while supporting the New Order, very few are null sec alts, I'd go as far as to say that a large number are null and lowsec mains, with the remainder being made up of highsec players, some are highsec gankers by nature, some are highsec miners who are having a laugh removing their competition from the field, while others like myself were bored with highsec and have already lived in wormholes, roamed through lowsec and annoyed the incumbents in null.

I disagree with a lot of James' CSM manifesto, I've said as much both in this thread and on the blog, I personally don't think highsec needs nerfing into the ground, I do however believe that both nullsec and lowsec need a significant buff so that they become viable places to do something other than blob each other or dock up everytime a red appears in local.

There is a reason that so many lowsec and nullsec players have highsec alts to make their isk, all the infrastructure for industry is much more accessible in highsec, mining in highsec is relatively safe if you're actually paying attention, PvE in highsec is also relatively safe if you have even the vaguest understanding of aggression mechanics, the same goes for hauling and pretty much every other activity you can do in highsec.

[off on a tangent]
If, for example, players were given the tools to upgrade the industrial infrastructure in both nullsec and lowsec so that it could compete with highsec in terms of production and cost, maybe by allowing them to increase the amount of research/copy/manufacturing slots available to them via a system control mechanic, while I'm aware that this can already be done using a POS and that there are industry upgrades available for Sov null I'm not au fait with how the null upgrade system actually works and I doubt it includes the kind of upgrades I'm talking about.

If more people start doing highsec type stuff in lowsec and nullsec and CCP allow us, the players, to control certain aspects of it, then they become viable alternatives to having an alt in highsec. The side benefit is that with more players comes greater security, lowsec and NPC null corporations involved in stuff that is currently done in highsec would have to organise their own security services to clean out the current inhabitants that like to prey on them. [/off on a tangent]


I dont disagree with much you just posted honestly.

There is many rewarding things in game that cant be accomplished in high sec that is only available in low and null. I think there need to be work done to null and sov.

I AM for changes like you suggest as long as they come with changes to sov and null that dislodge the "blue for days" mentality that was breed by greed and bad game mechanics.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#178 - 2013-02-15 03:17:45 UTC
I suspect some that were griefed believe that if highsec becomes Trammel and dies, they couldn't care less and would be quite satisfied that their actions/words contributed to a reverse-gank towards their greifers.

For someone who hates this game after losing a ship, this is a win-win scenario.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#179 - 2013-02-15 03:19:45 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:


If they REALLY cared about the game they would be pushing for sweeping changes to null and sov....but that would really screw with their risk free income,



That is a good point. Null is a mess, way too powerful in terms of being removed from other players. Null could do with more empire raiders running around that they have to physically address and not just reroute with 20 jumps. Also the ISK faucets out there create local inflation that is part of the reason 95% of goods are imported from highsec. Lower the ISK created there and equalize access to industry slots.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#180 - 2013-02-15 03:22:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:


If you're taking a dump while mining, you are afk mining, afk means away from keyboard, sitting on the pan is away from keyboard, unless of course you play on a laptop and take it with you.


The idea that one should have to stop the entire game just to take a leak is silly. To be punished for natural body functions is even more so. James wants nothing more than to be a tool and force people to pay him for being one. Now for someone who is off at the grocery store and is afk/bot mining thats a different story. The issue remains James makes no distinction between 'afk I've got to crap' and 'afk I just wanna make money without playing the game'.


Need a wee? dock up, if you don't dock up don't be surprised to find whatever you were flying no longer exists. I play this game with the assumption that everybody is out to kill me, especially the people that I've known for a few years through the game and call friend, because I'd certainly do it them. Friendship is being able to laugh about it afterwards.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack