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James 315 - An Apology and an Appeal
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Vaeliel
Slander Acquisitions
#141 - 2013-02-15 01:57:53 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Vaeliel wrote:
Lord Ovuld Feish wrote:
I will be the first person to log onto a "Trammel" Eve.

If I understood your OP correctly, Trammel was more populated than the original. So players DIDN'T WANT RISK.



I totally understand your desire for a risk free game where you can progress unhindered. I tanked the old Burning Crusade instances on my night elf warrior. There's a reason WoW clones make approximately all of the money.

However, what I don't understand is why it's so important to you that you destroy a game I love to get that.


People enjoy playing different ways. Why do YOU want to destroy the game for someone else rather than simply focusing on the areas of space in which you operate in? it seems like a simple equation to me: raise the reward of low sec and null sec compared to High sec and leave those who want to toil in High Sec alone. Honestly, when I looked at minerbuming.com all I saw a goonish extortion racket and nothing else.


It's understandable that it looks that way to you, but you are mistaken in a fundamental way: I want to preserve the game's initial values, not destroy them.

I would never log into Tera or WoW and start demanding that the developers change mechanics to favor an unforgiving world where every action carries risk and consequence.
Vaeliel
Slander Acquisitions
#142 - 2013-02-15 02:00:10 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
Seems if you really cared about the game you love you would be pushing for positive changes to null sec and low sec instead of trying to blame everything on changes to high sec.

A lot of folks find it convenient to point fingers towards high sec and forget that the individuals and corps in low and null had a hand it making it the snoozer it is now.

"Blame the carebear!" "Blame high sec!"................all while they log off the forums and return to their safe little carebear homes in null sec counting their monies from their risk free activities.


What they really want is to have their risk free activities to make their isk and turn your part of Eve into their playground.

Hypocrites!?!?! The lot of them.



Sariah, please stop misrepresenting what I say to further your argument. If you'd read closer you'd find that I agree with you:

Vaeliel wrote:
Also many are misrepresenting my points; Highsec is the focus of James 315's current operations, but I highly advocate buffing the hell out of Lowsec and Null, because as was rightly pointed out several times in this thread there are problems with all of it.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#143 - 2013-02-15 02:00:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
The more I think about the more I support ganking and bad behavior*, but what I don't really support is the over glorified aspect James comes across as. These alt threads are tedious and often too many in their numbers. Its just sickening brown nosing by people who all pretend they are a big deal. You bump miners and gank miners. Big deal. So could I if I was motivated.

What really irks me is the crowd that demands drastic changes to the game to support their playstyle. The brandish words like "entitlement" and "sandbox" and basically whine and cry to say the game needs to be changed to suit their playstyle. Drastics changes are just bad for the game. The game works pretty well as it is. Let's let CCP do their jobs and come up with incremental changes to keep the game fresh and balanced. Not to make it easier for you. HTFU. This goes for both griefers and carebears.


*The only reason I think bumping is silly is because its bad pyshics of a game engine that doesn't know any better. Bumping with battlships should be what is logical. Not the mass ratio we get now with frigs bumping things 100 times their size. Take a marble and hit a bowling ball. Even in zero g, the bowling ball only moves a fraction compared to the marble flying off into space. But I suppose we are playing submainres in space so I suppose there isn't any good solutions floating around.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Tesal
#144 - 2013-02-15 02:01:22 UTC
Help!!! Save us from ourselves!!!
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#145 - 2013-02-15 02:02:56 UTC
Lord Ovuld Feish wrote:
I will be the first person to log onto a "Trammel" Eve.

If I understood your OP correctly, Trammel was more populated than the original. So players DIDN'T WANT RISK.

It had a brief spike matched and surpassed by previous PVP UO expansions, then as the 'themepark' aspect began to get old everyone left. Short term gain, long term detriment to the game.
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#146 - 2013-02-15 02:08:03 UTC
Vaeliel wrote:
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Vaeliel wrote:
Lord Ovuld Feish wrote:
I will be the first person to log onto a "Trammel" Eve.

If I understood your OP correctly, Trammel was more populated than the original. So players DIDN'T WANT RISK.



I totally understand your desire for a risk free game where you can progress unhindered. I tanked the old Burning Crusade instances on my night elf warrior. There's a reason WoW clones make approximately all of the money.

However, what I don't understand is why it's so important to you that you destroy a game I love to get that.


People enjoy playing different ways. Why do YOU want to destroy the game for someone else rather than simply focusing on the areas of space in which you operate in? it seems like a simple equation to me: raise the reward of low sec and null sec compared to High sec and leave those who want to toil in High Sec alone. Honestly, when I looked at minerbuming.com all I saw a goonish extortion racket and nothing else.


It's understandable that it looks that way to you, but you are mistaken in a fundamental way: I want to preserve the game's initial values, not destroy them.

I would never log into Tera or WoW and start demanding that the developers change mechanics to favor an unforgiving world where every action carries risk and consequence.


This is where most of you fall off the logic train.

CCP is not making decisions based off of "carebears crying in high sec" they base them of market data,polling, internal demographics all which point them in a development direction that helps them maintain and grow their revenue streams as a business.

The scare tactics used by the side that wants you to play how they want you to play constantly take the "concern" angle when presenting these arguments trying to give of a an air of white knighting in defense of Eve.

Things change. This cycle and argument happens in ALL MMO's on the market. Were one faction wants to remember the glory days as the game moves forwards and changes and adapts to the market. If they game has grown steadily, and your arguments about the decline of the game because of the steady change to high sec are to be true then on the surface it seems like YOUR ideas and agenda are not necessarily in line with whats best for the growth of the game. Go figure eh? This is nothing new to MMO's. this discussion being had now.

There are those that adapt to the change, especially whne its lead to steady growth over 10 YEARS or those that act like curmudgeons and pine for the "good ole days" which is a sentiment echoed in every MMO forum since the genre's inception.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#147 - 2013-02-15 02:10:34 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
It had a brief spike matched and surpassed by previous PVP UO expansions, then as the 'themepark' aspect began to get old everyone left. Short term gain, long term detriment to the game.


"death of the game"

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#148 - 2013-02-15 02:13:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Lord Ovuld Feish wrote:
I will be the first person to log onto a "Trammel" Eve.

If I understood your OP correctly, Trammel was more populated than the original. So players DIDN'T WANT RISK.

It had a brief spike matched and surpassed by previous PVP UO expansions, then as the 'themepark' aspect began to get old everyone left. Short term gain, long term detriment to the game.


Truth be told. I made new players quit UO. I would sit in town and find new players (you could tell by their clothing). Give them some gold and tell them you have some more out in the woods. Take them out to your house. Log out and then back in with your murderer dread lord and show them what its like to lose everything in the game.

Sometimes if their ghost was around I'd rez them and then put them down again. COR POR

I was not the only one who did this.

Even though I enjoyed this immensley I completly understood why EA created trammel. They did it because the player base abused and caused new players to quit. Without new subs, there was no way to replace the losses from all the older players who were quitting because they too were being griefed out the game.

In effect, we griefers were to blame of why trammel was created.

In that respect you must understand why CCP must provide safe havens for new and even older players in EvE as they do now. There is no extreme need to expand that, but there is also a very good reason to why CCP should keep the status quo.

The have to keep new players and those who don't enjoy being griefed.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#149 - 2013-02-15 02:15:14 UTC
Vaeliel wrote:

It's understandable that it looks that way to you, but you are mistaken in a fundamental way: I want to preserve the game's initial values, not destroy them.

I would never log into Tera or WoW and start demanding that the developers change mechanics to favor an unforgiving world where every action carries risk and consequence.


Then preserve it in low-sec and null-sec. Adventure requires you to go out into the unknown too seek danger and forutune, not just stepping out the front door.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#150 - 2013-02-15 02:21:29 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Adventure requires you to go out into the unknown too seek danger and forutune, not just stepping out the front door.


Nope, danger is supposed to exist everywhere in Eve. You are never supposed to feel perfectly safe and relaxed while undocked...or even while docked in some cases.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#151 - 2013-02-15 02:26:46 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Adventure requires you to go out into the unknown too seek danger and forutune, not just stepping out the front door.


Nope, danger is supposed to exist everywhere in Eve. You are never supposed to feel perfectly safe and relaxed while undocked...or even while docked in some cases.


Unless you are in wide sections of null sec, then you are pretty much safe as can be to farm away at the risk free isk making activities. They can even do that AFK which allows for more time to head to the forums and blame High Sec, risk averse, carebears for the downfall of Eve online and allow alts to start up ganking corps and run for CSM.

Amazing really.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#152 - 2013-02-15 02:29:36 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
Unless you are in wide sections of null sec, then you are pretty much safe as can be to farm away at the risk free isk making activities. They can even do that AFK which allows for more time to head to the forums and blame High Sec, risk averse, carebears for the downfall of Eve online and allow alts to start up ganking corps and run for CSM.

Amazing really.


NPC corp chat is an excellent and reliable source for information on sov nullsec.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Vaeliel
Slander Acquisitions
#153 - 2013-02-15 02:29:51 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Truth be told. I made new players quit UO. I would sit in town and find new players (you could tell by their clothing). Give them some gold and tell them you have some more out in the woods. Take them out to your house. Log out and then back in with your murderer dread lord and show them what its like to lose everything in the game.

Sometimes if their ghost was around I'd rez them and then put them down again. COR POR

I was not the only one who did this.

Even though I enjoyed this immensley I completly understood why EA created trammel. They did it because the player base abused and caused new players to quit. Without new subs, there was no way to replace the losses from all the older players who were quitting because they too were being griefed out the game.

In effect, we griefers were to blame of why trammel was created.

In that respect you must understand why CCP must provide safe havens for new and even older players in EvE as they do now. There is no extreme need to expand that, but there is also a very good reason to why CCP should keep the status quo.

The have to keep new players and those who don't enjoy being griefed.



Ebolts to the face made me rage quite a bit too... Truth be told I never stopped being a newbie in UO and that would have TOTALLY worked on me. Twisted

These are valid points; we older players do have some onus as far as helping the newbies. Perhaps guiding the new generation of Eve players toward lowsec and showing them how exciting risk can be would be a good way to help further the cause I'm advocating here.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#154 - 2013-02-15 02:34:10 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
Varius Xeral wrote:
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Adventure requires you to go out into the unknown too seek danger and forutune, not just stepping out the front door.


Nope, danger is supposed to exist everywhere in Eve. You are never supposed to feel perfectly safe and relaxed while undocked...or even while docked in some cases.


Unless you are in wide sections of null sec, then you are pretty much safe as can be to farm away at the risk free isk making activities. They can even do that AFK which allows for more time to head to the forums and blame High Sec, risk averse, carebears for the downfall of Eve online and allow alts to start up ganking corps and run for CSM.

Amazing really.



Not happy with people being able to make isk afk in space they fought for? go and do something about it. The New Order guys and James 315 aren't happy about people being able to make isk while afk in highsec, which is the area they specifically state they are concentrating on, they are doing something about it, using the very mechanics that the afk isk makers have pushed for in the last few years.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#155 - 2013-02-15 02:34:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Simon Louvaki
Varius Xeral wrote:
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Adventure requires you to go out into the unknown too seek danger and forutune, not just stepping out the front door.


Nope, danger is supposed to exist everywhere in Eve. You are never supposed to feel perfectly safe and relaxed while undocked...or even while docked in some cases.


If that were true then there would be no point in having a 'security' rating of space in the first place and honesty, that would make a **** backdrop for immersion breaking for an entire cluster meant to be controlled by four very powerful Empires. Some areas of space are meant to be safer than others, which makes it all the more reason to make the more dangerous areas more profitable to go to. Risk vs Reward right?

Jonah Gravenstein wrote:


Not happy with people being able to make isk afk in space they fought for? go and do something about it. The New Order guys and James 315 aren't happy about people being able to make isk while afk in highsec, which is the area they specifically state they are concentrating on, they are doing something about it, using the very mechanics that the afk isk makers have pushed for in the last few years.


Did you read the part where he claims all of High Sec as his space and how he will issue force whenever he *thinks* your afk or not? I could be taking a **** while mining and he would say I was afk mining. The New Order is an extorsion racket with a cult mentality. I might actually take him somewhat seriously if he didn't demand you pay him money.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#156 - 2013-02-15 02:35:42 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
Unless you are in wide sections of null sec, then you are pretty much safe as can be to farm away at the risk free isk making activities. They can even do that AFK which allows for more time to head to the forums and blame High Sec, risk averse, carebears for the downfall of Eve online and allow alts to start up ganking corps and run for CSM.

Amazing really.


NPC corp chat is an excellent and reliable source for information on sov nullsec.


I hit cloes to home eh? Its not a secret how safe most of null sec is these days. That's why its hilarious when null sec alts are complaining about "risk averse carebears" ruining Eve.

Hahahaha.......

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#157 - 2013-02-15 02:41:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Sariah Kion
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Sariah Kion wrote:
Varius Xeral wrote:
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Adventure requires you to go out into the unknown too seek danger and forutune, not just stepping out the front door.


Nope, danger is supposed to exist everywhere in Eve. You are never supposed to feel perfectly safe and relaxed while undocked...or even while docked in some cases.


Unless you are in wide sections of null sec, then you are pretty much safe as can be to farm away at the risk free isk making activities. They can even do that AFK which allows for more time to head to the forums and blame High Sec, risk averse, carebears for the downfall of Eve online and allow alts to start up ganking corps and run for CSM.

Amazing really.



Not happy with people being able to make isk afk in space they fought for? go and do something about it. The New Order guys and James 315 aren't happy about people being able to make isk while afk in highsec, which is the area they specifically state they are concentrating on, they are doing something about it, using the very mechanics that the afk isk makers have pushed for in the last few years.



I dont care if they are AFK making isk in bunker like null sec. Just dont come and ***** about "risk averse" anything especially in response to income generation. There are HORDES of players in null alliances who dont know didly about risk since joining their friends or coprs in null sec after their alliances have held sov for a while.

Bored Null Sec alts ganking and griefing high sec under the guise of concern for the future of the game. I doint know whats worse, that you think people really buy into that or if the people white knighting the cause really believe they are "saving eve"

Its so transparent that I can believe some still trot the tired arguments and ad hominems out still.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#158 - 2013-02-15 02:46:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Sariah Kion wrote:


Unless you are in wide sections of null sec, then you are pretty much safe as can be to farm away at the risk free isk making activities. They can even do that AFK which allows for more time to head to the forums and blame High Sec, risk averse, carebears for the downfall of Eve online and allow alts to start up ganking corps and run for CSM.

Amazing really.


I live in losec and I have to log out to come to the forums. Neither James nor the Goons put forth the argument that "Eve is dying."


Sariah Kion wrote:

This is where most of you fall off the logic train.

CCP is not making decisions based off of "carebears crying in high sec" they base them of market data,polling, internal demographics all which point them in a development direction that helps them maintain and grow their revenue streams as a business.


Your assumption here is that CCP is after growth is not proven, they are not a public company and answer to only themselves. And in any case having more data doesn't guarantee that a company will make the "correct" decisions. History is full of companies and people who had all the answers and still didn't achieve their objectives.

The whole case of CCP is more of a distraction to the argument taking place here. They will do what they feel like doing. The question raised by James is "How can we make Eve a better game." This is subjective, however games have existed for a very long time, what are some of the qualities of the great ones?

They require thought, they are often puzzles, there is frequently risk in the form of wagering either money or status, they have an interface that draws the players into the game. Games like chess, go and poker have stood the test of time because of these elements.

In recent years Eve has moved away from being a game towards being a spectator sport. This may well be good for revenue, it is however not good for the game.
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#159 - 2013-02-15 02:52:43 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:

Your assumption here is that CCP is after growth is not proven



Its really hard to move past this statement and then take you seriously. Sorry, no offense meant.

[b]Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement President[/b] Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs. [u]A modern girl for a modern world.[/u]
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#160 - 2013-02-15 02:53:21 UTC
Sariah Kion wrote:
Varius Xeral wrote:
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Adventure requires you to go out into the unknown too seek danger and forutune, not just stepping out the front door.


Nope, danger is supposed to exist everywhere in Eve. You are never supposed to feel perfectly safe and relaxed while undocked...or even while docked in some cases.


Unless you are in wide sections of null sec, then you are pretty much safe as can be to farm away at the risk free isk making activities. They can even do that AFK which allows for more time to head to the forums and blame High Sec, risk averse, carebears for the downfall of Eve online and allow alts to start up ganking corps and run for CSM.

Amazing really.

Let's remove concord, then highsec can enjoy null's level of safety.