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Threshold for ganking a Freighter should be higher? Discuss
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Core Researcher
Not You Fat Jesus
#1 - 2013-02-14 14:02:49 UTC
hi,

I am here to suggest that the cost of ganking a freighter should be higher than the ~1bn ISK it currently is.

Looking at it for a freighter pilor's point of view:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

ship investment: ~1.3bn ISK

So immediately on gank the Freighter pilot loses ~300m in comparison to the gank fleet
(1.3bn ship - 1bn gankfleet).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

cargo: as things currently stand freight pilots are aware that anything worth over a bill puts a target on them. Therefore your cargo will always be worth 1bn ISK or less. Ive seen courier packages smaller than a pea with 1bn ISK collateral.

so now on gank the Freighter pilot loses ~1.3bn in comparison to the gank fleet
((1bn collateral + 1.3bn ship) - (1bn gankfleet))

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

gankfleet: if the freighter cargo drops and the capacity to scoop the cargo is there the cost of the gankfleet could be covered. To pick a number out of the air lets say an average 500m drops from a Freighter.

we are now looking at Freighter pilot loses ~1.8bn in comparison to the gank fleet
(((1bn collateral + 1.3bn ship) - (1bn gankfleet)) + 500m dropped)))

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Dont pilot what you can't afford to lose.

I agree with this statement. I think freighters should be gankable. My issue is the cost of ganking one to the parties involved. Freighters should be gankable at a cost that is equivalent to the minimum comparative cost to the freigher pilot.

using the numbers above the average gankfleet should cost 2.3bn ISK to put together.

Smile
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2 - 2013-02-14 14:05:35 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Core Researcher wrote:
hi,

I am here to suggest that the cost of ganking a freighter should be higher than the ~1bn ISK it currently is.



Its currently 2.5 billion.
Core Researcher
Not You Fat Jesus
#3 - 2013-02-14 14:08:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Core Researcher
baltec1 wrote:
Its 2.5 billion.


The cost of the average gankfleet?

ah.

Well if this is true I just wasted like 10 minutes writing this hehe.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#4 - 2013-02-14 14:10:48 UTC
I am more interested about JFs.
Some guys keep telling me I am mad flying a JF around (including hi sec) because it's profitable to gank even when empty.

Is this a gross idiocy or not? I admit I have no experience about JFs salvage, I only have a lot about barges, exhumers and destroyers salvage Pirate

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2013-02-14 14:12:34 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I am more interested about JFs.
Some guys keep telling me I am mad flying a JF around (including hi sec) because it's profitable to gank even when empty.

Is this a gross idiocy or not? I admit I have no experience about JFs salvage, I only have a lot about barges, exhumers and destroyers salvage Pirate


I suppose it depends on your definition of profitable. If you mean strictly ISK lost on both sides, then yes, the gank squad will always come out on top - coupled with the fact that the insurance payout on a JF barely covers the cost of the T1 version of the hull, and the pilot of the JF stands to lose quite a bit more than the gankers.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#6 - 2013-02-14 14:13:32 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I am more interested about JFs.
Some guys keep telling me I am mad flying a JF around (including hi sec) because it's profitable to gank even when empty.

Is this a gross idiocy or not? I admit I have no experience about JFs salvage, I only have a lot about barges, exhumers and destroyers salvage Pirate


Utter foolishness. There is no way thats profitable to gank without anything in the hold.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-02-14 14:16:42 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Core Researcher wrote:
hi,

I am here to suggest that the cost of ganking a freighter should be higher than the ~1bn ISK it currently is.



Its currently 2.5 billion.

i've read about "ganking standard": 15 tornadoes. Is it right?

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Hammer Borne
Doomheim
#8 - 2013-02-14 14:17:59 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I am more interested about JFs.
Some guys keep telling me I am mad flying a JF around (including hi sec) because it's profitable to gank even when empty.

Is this a gross idiocy or not? I admit I have no experience about JFs salvage, I only have a lot about barges, exhumers and destroyers salvage Pirate


Utter foolishness. There is no way thats profitable to gank without anything in the hold.



That depends on the average value of tears on the open market. 7bil loss would create a harvest-able tidal wave.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#9 - 2013-02-14 14:18:30 UTC
Core Researcher wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Its 2.5 billion.


The cost of the average gankfleet?

ah.

Well if this is true I just wasted like 10 minutes writing this hehe.


No thats the lowest value that is gank worthy.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#10 - 2013-02-14 14:20:12 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I am more interested about JFs.
Some guys keep telling me I am mad flying a JF around (including hi sec) because it's profitable to gank even when empty.

Is this a gross idiocy or not? I admit I have no experience about JFs salvage, I only have a lot about barges, exhumers and destroyers salvage Pirate


Utter foolishness. There is no way thats profitable to gank without anything in the hold.


What value do JFs usually drop as salvage? I suppose the maximum value that can be ferried would be equal to:

Salvage + contents + gank ships value

and in this case the value has to be quite good since JFs tank is better than freighters.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#11 - 2013-02-14 14:20:55 UTC
Hammer Borne wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I am more interested about JFs.
Some guys keep telling me I am mad flying a JF around (including hi sec) because it's profitable to gank even when empty.

Is this a gross idiocy or not? I admit I have no experience about JFs salvage, I only have a lot about barges, exhumers and destroyers salvage Pirate


Utter foolishness. There is no way thats profitable to gank without anything in the hold.



That depends on the average value of tears on the open market. 7bil loss would create a harvest-able tidal wave.


Not really, that's about 5 of my trades worth of loss.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#12 - 2013-02-14 14:34:06 UTC
Posting in an obvious "CCP, please patch stupid" thread.
They (tried) to patch stupid with the mining barges, now it's moved onto Freighters.

I have an awesome idea!
Why not pull your heads out of each others asses and fly smart.
Like bring ECM and Logistical support.
Not put billions of ISK worth of crap into it's hold.

Oh, that's too complicated?
OK then, keep feeding the gankers the killmail and loot, fly like complete morons.
Then go on the forums and constantly post over and over again, begging CCP to patch stupid...
HeavensAngel
Falcon Advanced Industries
#13 - 2013-02-14 14:44:46 UTC
Mai Khumm wrote:
Posting in an obvious "CCP, please patch stupid" thread.
They (tried) to patch stupid with the mining barges, now it's moved onto Freighters.

I have an awesome idea!
Why not pull your heads out of each others asses and fly smart.
Like bring ECM and Logistical support.
Not put billions of ISK worth of crap into it's hold.

Oh, that's too complicated?
OK then, keep feeding the gankers the killmail and loot, fly like complete morons.
Then go on the forums and constantly post over and over again, begging CCP to patch stupid...


wondering what ECM and Logistics will help when your freighter gets killed by an alpha strike ... but thats just my 2 cent
Mc Scam
Doomheim
#14 - 2013-02-14 14:50:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Mc Scam
hi,

I am here to suggest that the cost of ganking a freighter should be lower than the ~1bn ISK it currently is.

Looking at it for a ganker pilor's point of view:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

ship investment: ~1bn ISK (according to OP)

So immediately on gank the Ganker fleet loses ~1bn, this does not include possible podkills and the consequences of killrights.
Should the freighter pop AND if the lootfairy indeed says 'YES' then the profit must be split among all members of the fleet. All this means that often, despite the huge time investment, gankers make a bigger loss than the freighter pilot who if he manages to escape even makes a profit due to selling killrights.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

loot: as things currently stand freighter pilots are aware that anything worth over a bill puts a target on them. Therefore their cargo will always be worth 1bn ISK or less. (according to OP, ofc there's a few special pinhatas flying around)
Unless you find one of the pinhatas there will be no profit to be made.(If we take OPs numbers)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

freighters: Freighter pilots make millions if not billions a day just hauling stuff around often putting the isk/h of gankers to shame. They can do so while beeing mostly afk and if they choose to they can reduce the risks of loss by a huge margin.
Meanwhile the gankers need to put alot of time, isk, effort and organization into ganking while often not beeing rewarded at all.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Don't get me wrong.

I think freighter pilots should be able to safeboat. My issue is the reward of ganking. Gankers should be rewarded in a way that meets the cost and all the work gankers put into setting up a gank.

Considering all this the cost of a gankfleet should be reduced atleast by half.
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#15 - 2013-02-14 14:53:19 UTC
Does the Stasis Web instant warp still work with freighters? If yes, then that is the way to play it safe.

Other than that, use alternative trade routes and collect your freight on a none-hub station before taking off. Needs more time and effort, you go more jumps and you can't just set destination and go, but it's less risky.

Also, don't autopilot. It's highly inefficient anyway, I rather go ice mining.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2013-02-14 14:56:53 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
Does the Stasis Web instant warp still work with freighters? If yes, then that is the way to play it safe.


Yes - with double faction webs on a huginn, you can send a freighter into warp almost the second they decloak.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#17 - 2013-02-14 15:01:32 UTC
Mai Khumm wrote:
Posting in an obvious "CCP, please patch stupid" thread.
They (tried) to patch stupid with the mining barges, now it's moved onto Freighters.

I have an awesome idea!
Why not pull your heads out of each others asses and fly smart.
Like bring ECM and Logistical support.
Not put billions of ISK worth of crap into it's hold.

Oh, that's too complicated?
OK then, keep feeding the gankers the killmail and loot, fly like complete morons.
Then go on the forums and constantly post over and over again, begging CCP to patch stupid...



Yes because we all know Sheet never happens to good pilots or smart pilots. I dont care how smart you think you are or how carefull you may be it can happen. Its a simple case of math. The more frequent you do the same thing the greater the chance of something going wrong.

Fix the games broken mechanics (bumping) and you remove some of the risk.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#18 - 2013-02-14 15:03:37 UTC
HeavensAngel wrote:


wondering what ECM and Logistics will help when your freighter gets killed by an alpha strike ... but thats just my 2 cent


People don't alpha frighters, theres a cheaper way to kill them.
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#19 - 2013-02-14 15:13:30 UTC
HeavensAngel wrote:
Mai Khumm wrote:
Posting in an obvious "CCP, please patch stupid" thread.
They (tried) to patch stupid with the mining barges, now it's moved onto Freighters.

I have an awesome idea!
Why not pull your heads out of each others asses and fly smart.
Like bring ECM and Logistical support.
Not put billions of ISK worth of crap into it's hold.

Oh, that's too complicated?
OK then, keep feeding the gankers the killmail and loot, fly like complete morons.
Then go on the forums and constantly post over and over again, begging CCP to patch stupid...


wondering what ECM and Logistics will help when your freighter gets killed by an alpha strike ... but thats just my 2 cent

I've done it several times.
*Looks at inventory and skillsheet, then personal losses.*
Looks like I'm a Freighter and JF pilot, with no losses.
*Checks former indy corps killboard*
Sees several kills.

Huh, looks like it works to me.
So there is a proven way to defend against Freighter ganking.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#20 - 2013-02-14 15:29:03 UTC
Mc Scam wrote:
hi,

I am here to suggest that the cost of ganking a freighter should be lower than the ~1bn ISK it currently is.

Looking at it for a ganker pilor's point of view:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

ship investment: ~1bn ISK (according to OP)

So immediately on gank the Ganker fleet loses ~1bn, this does not include possible podkills and the consequences of killrights.
Should the freighter pop AND if the lootfairy indeed says 'YES' then the profit must be split among all members of the fleet. All this means that often, despite the huge time investment, gankers make a bigger loss than the freighter pilot who if he manages to escape even makes a profit due to selling killrights.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

loot: as things currently stand freighter pilots are aware that anything worth over a bill puts a target on them. Therefore their cargo will always be worth 1bn ISK or less. (according to OP, ofc there's a few special pinhatas flying around)
Unless you find one of the pinhatas there will be no profit to be made.(If we take OPs numbers)

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

freighters: Freighter pilots make millions if not billions a day just hauling stuff around often putting the isk/h of gankers to shame. They can do so while beeing mostly afk and if they choose to they can reduce the risks of loss by a huge margin.
Meanwhile the gankers need to put alot of time, isk, effort and organization into ganking while often not beeing rewarded at all.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Don't get me wrong.

I think freighter pilots should be able to safeboat. My issue is the reward of ganking. Gankers should be rewarded in a way that meets the cost and all the work gankers put into setting up a gank.

Considering all this the cost of a gankfleet should be reduced atleast by half.



Isn't rewarding gankers reverse entitilment?

Ganking happens all the time now to afk freighters so its not like its doesn't appear from a logistics standpoint to be unreasonbly hard to gank a frieghter for those who put their mind to it.

I think numbers should be left alone and emergent gameplay should be the key factor to determine what happens.

The numbers now currently are in favor of the gankers anyways. It only takes 1 billion to destroy a 1.3-1.7 billion isk ship so there is that.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
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