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Allowed or not Allowed - CCP some guidance?
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#61 - 2013-02-14 06:03:04 UTC
And that is how NOT to do a reductio ad absurdum.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#62 - 2013-02-14 08:04:16 UTC
So the consensus seems to be that cache scraping is legal at the moment but CCP Screens would like to ban it.

What about using the in game browser functions to populate the cache?

Not much comment on that yet.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#63 - 2013-02-14 08:08:08 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
So the consensus seems to be that cache scraping is legal at the moment but CCP Screens would like to ban it.

What about using the in game browser functions to populate the cache?

Not much comment on that yet.

Would be under "legal at the moment but CCP Screens would like to ban it." ? Good question.

What other things (in-game) allow you to populate the cache. Just looking up market orders does that, right?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Dante Uisen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#64 - 2013-02-14 08:30:59 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Then CCP Sreegs declares loading cache files to be illegal.


I don't think you are violating any laws or the EULA by giving a third-party files temporary stored on your computer, Eve-Central i good example of how you can use cache data without ever touching the cache files yourself.

You don't need access to the game client you parse the cache files, which means you don't need to agree to the EULA/TOS, so how can it be illegal?
Beckie DeLey
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2013-02-14 08:51:51 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Honestly, this all strikes me as a bunch of people wanting to find out exactly where the line is for their bots.


Exactly. And i hope there's someone at CCP taking notes here.

My siren's name is Brick and she is the prettiest.
Dante Uisen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#66 - 2013-02-14 08:57:50 UTC
Beckie DeLey wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Honestly, this all strikes me as a bunch of people wanting to find out exactly where the line is for their bots.
Exactly. And i hope there's someone at CCP taking notes here.


Nothing wrong with following the rules.
Gordon Fell
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#67 - 2013-02-14 09:16:50 UTC
This is actually a useful feature of EVE-Central, where it'll feed the IGB a list of items that haven't been checked for a while in the region you're in (in turn activating the corresponding market pane), while the application eve-central provides, Contribtastic, fetches those prices from the cache. You can turn this process on, and minimize the client while you go do something else. This has been perfectly possible since the first new version of the IGB.

But guess what?
- setting the market pane can only be done every second or so
- the cache contains the same information as clicking the 'export' button

I wouldn't be very inclined to provide my fellow players with more recent prices on accord of me getting a serious case of repetitive strain injury. Also, in light of the recent enabler discussion, I don't think banning the use of the cache would benefit anyone. Like Entity wrote, banning the use doesn't actually hinder anyone not playing by the rules.
Dante Uisen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#68 - 2013-02-14 09:35:45 UTC
Gordon Fell wrote:
the cache contains the same information as clicking the 'export' button


Using the export feature is just a pain in the butt...

You need to do it for each item you are trading, and you need to do it with some interval if you want relative fresh data. You can add the items you are trading to the quick-bar, it makes them easier to find, but manually exporting data on large amounts of market orders is just ********.

CCP should just add a feature like the quick-bar that would export data on all the orders on the list automatically.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#69 - 2013-02-14 09:43:41 UTC
Gordon Fell wrote:
This is actually a useful feature of EVE-Central, where it'll feed the IGB a list of items that haven't been checked for a while in the region you're in (in turn activating the corresponding market pane), while the application eve-central provides, Contribtastic, fetches those prices from the cache. You can turn this process on, and minimize the client while you go do something else. This has been perfectly possible since the first new version of the IGB.

But guess what?
- setting the market pane can only be done every second or so
- the cache contains the same information as clicking the 'export' button

I wouldn't be very inclined to provide my fellow players with more recent prices on accord of me getting a serious case of repetitive strain injury. Also, in light of the recent enabler discussion, I don't think banning the use of the cache would benefit anyone. Like Entity wrote, banning the use doesn't actually hinder anyone not playing by the rules.


You seem to have neglected the part where CCP Sreegs wants to make functionality available via API instead of via scraping the cache. This doesn't hurt enablers, but does make for a much clearer line.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#70 - 2013-02-14 09:57:10 UTC
Gordon Fell wrote:
This is actually a useful feature of EVE-Central, where it'll feed the IGB a list of items that haven't been checked for a while in the region you're in (in turn activating the corresponding market pane), while the application eve-central provides, Contribtastic, fetches those prices from the cache. You can turn this process on, and minimize the client while you go do something else. This has been perfectly possible since the first new version of the IGB.

But guess what?
- setting the market pane can only be done every second or so
- the cache contains the same information as clicking the 'export' button

I wouldn't be very inclined to provide my fellow players with more recent prices on accord of me getting a serious case of repetitive strain injury. Also, in light of the recent enabler discussion, I don't think banning the use of the cache would benefit anyone. Like Entity wrote, banning the use doesn't actually hinder anyone not playing by the rules.


The fact that it is in Eve Central does not mean it is automatically acceptable to CCP.

It is a very small step from what you say must be fine - automatically populating a public website with prices - to using the same mechanism to get up to date prices, compare them with your orders (which you can get through the API), working out the new best price and allowing you to cut and paste this from the in game browser into your order updates.

This is allegedly precisely what just got the eve university guy banned (see the other thread).

Hence the need for some clarity.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2013-02-14 09:59:51 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
If you have questions about what is and isn't allowed, you should file a petition.

according to Sreegs petition replies offer no assurance when the security team happens to disagree with the GM stance.

.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2013-02-14 10:04:48 UTC
Entity wrote:
Sid Hudgens wrote:
Entity wrote:
Re. cache scraping:

1. Explicit permission is explicit



2008 forum post is from 2008.


Heck, that was back in the BoB days. Now goons are running everything...
(sorry I had to...)


Sure it's an old post.
But it would be absolutely ridiculous to expect us to ask CCP if previously-explicitly-permitted-activity-X is still permitted everytime an issue comes up related to it.

If they had changed their mind, the least I would expect is a blog/news item stating the change in policy, especially on something so crucial for many 3rd party developers.

CCP Sreegs wrote:
I'd stick to the actual legal agreement you agreed to rather than outdated GM replies. It's a suggestion.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601530#post2601530

.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2013-02-14 10:06:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
Dante Uisen wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Then CCP Sreegs declares loading cache files to be illegal.


I don't think you are violating any laws or the EULA by giving a third-party files temporary stored on your computer, Eve-Central i good example of how you can use cache data without ever touching the cache files yourself.

You don't need access to the game client you parse the cache files, which means you don't need to agree to the EULA/TOS, so how can it be illegal?


CCP Sreegs redefined "illegal" as "anything I don't approve of" long ago and the playerbase went along with it.

Discussions about the semantics of this word are fruitless and won't change how it is used on this forum.

.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#74 - 2013-02-14 11:05:32 UTC
Any esternal tool allowing to perform/replace in game actions is not allowed. I'ts clear, blunt and obvious.
Tricky arguing and qibbling is not going to fool anyone.

And, again, stop kidding please. Applications like EFT or EVEMON do not access your client cache, indeed they works also if EVE is not installed. hey only use the API keys. If they used the cache to popualte their internal ships and modules library is their problem, in case. But these tools do not improve/replace or automate in anyway EVE client performances or actions.
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#75 - 2013-02-14 11:17:25 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
The 'Date Last Accessed' time stamp is optional on NTFS file systems.

In Windows 7 it is disabled by default.

http://beingpc.com/2011/04/how-to-enable-time-stamp-in-windows-7/



Also it's all filesystem metadata, the file in itself is not modified by one bit.

Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.
Dante Uisen
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#76 - 2013-02-14 11:32:46 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Applications like EFT or EVEMON do not access your client cache, indeed they works also if EVE is not installed.


You can use evemon to upload market data to eve-central, pretty sure this is done by parsing the cache files, and EFT can use eve-central to get the price one fits.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#77 - 2013-02-14 11:57:26 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
CCP Sreegs redefined "illegal" as "anything I don't approve of" long ago and the playerbase went along with it.

Discussions about the semantics of this word are fruitless and won't change how it is used on this forum.

CCP Streegs, redefining our world.
Beckie DeLey wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Honestly, this all strikes me as a bunch of people wanting to find out exactly where the line is for their bots.

Exactly. And i hope there's someone at CCP taking notes here.

You see, this is actually a honeypot thread and we'll all be commissared, thread locked and I donno, GD will just be as terrible anyway.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#78 - 2013-02-14 11:57:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Solstice Project wrote:
Tbh, if you download the whole market of a whole region,
then you really really really deserve to get your ass kicked,
but THAT'S just my personal opinion.

What's not my personal opinion, though, is the following:


You do it ... and that's already kind of an unfair advantage ... but okay, you're smart.
Suddenly others become smart too and do it too.
One of these smart people becomes even smarter and makes this available to EVEN MORE PEOPLE.
Now EVEN MORE PEOPLE do it and suddenly ... who would have funk ! ... EVERYBODY DOES IT !


Conclusion: Market goes BOOM !


And i don't mean just The Forge and a few items.
No ! Come on, that's ridiculous !

I'm talking about
Literally
Every single item
In every region
In every system.


BOOM ! The End.


The Eve Marketeer website (back when it was up) allowed you to do precisely this, with no interaction.

It was then trivial to start up a tool like Eve Mentat and load up all the prices via cache scraping, and compare them to your orders.

It was not rocket science, in fact quite the contrary.

And EVERYONE *was* doing it, and thinking it was legal.

But is it?

I don't know that program. Is it really the same ?

Just for clarification:

What i'm talking about is downloading *all* the items, of any region, from *within* in game ... in one go.
I've petitioned a guy who talked about it publicly and got a response from Team Security,
with no real information given, except that they'll look into it. That was no generic response, btw.
I didn't petition on "belief he did it", he publicly talked about it and i copied the whole convo into the petition.

From my opinion, he deserves to be banned. He said he has two computers set up dedicated
to just download all the major regions, which took around two hours per region.

I find it hard to believe that this is what everybody did ... because if that would be the case,
the market would implode. I think what *you're* talking about is that people upload cachefiles,
which is different, because it will not cover *literally* everything.
Smark Shardani
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#79 - 2013-02-14 12:05:15 UTC
Pewty McPew wrote:
I smell a Goon market manipulation script on the way.......


Actually it was an E-Uni market manipulation script that started this discussion.



Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#80 - 2013-02-14 13:55:32 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


So you're saying you might have to actually write intelligent programs to manage your usage of the API? So you're saying you might have to manually update things or manually do some work like the majority of "unenhanced" Eve players?

Cry me a ******* river.

-Liang


No.
So, I am saying both you and that CCP person don't know the current technical limits of certain technologies.

I could write whatever intelligent software yet the fact there are hundreds of other concurrent API requests would immediately kill the whole API service for everyone if I started extracting data.
It's is BAD to have 1 guy kill a service for everybody else and not because he wants to setup a DOS attack but because the API won't let to any other outcome.


Liang Nuren wrote:

So you're saying you might have to manually update things or manually do some work like the majority of "unenhanced" Eve players?


The way I trade I don't need to do any work except setting up 2-3 orders every some weeks. I don't need any utility, my trading alts don't even have trading skills trained and yet they make their share of billions a month.

Just because someone knows how API works (hint: I developed some EvE software for other things) does not mean he uses of it or benefits off it.


Liang Nuren wrote:

Cry me a ******* river.


I find it more constructive to try and educate you instead.

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