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Petition - Full ban of multi boxing programs which duplicate clicks.

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Kate stark
#161 - 2013-02-14 20:38:21 UTC
Thalen Draganos wrote:
To add to my above post:

Do you people realize just how many people run multiple accounts simultaneously (a.k.a. multibox)?
A lot!
Imagine if you got your way and people were only able to run one account at a time from each computer. Or worse yet, from the same IP address.
Do you realize that would mean, at the very least, a couple hundred thousand USD per month income cut?
Now, if you ran a business, would you be willing to take that kind of hit on your income from your flagship product just because of some whiny people who refuse to understand that running multiple accounts on multiple computers, or even one computer which is not all that expensive if you took time to look, is not against the rules?

Of course not.
Get over it ffs.


money doesn't even come in to it.
multiboxing simply doesn't break the rules.

the only real argument is that multiboxing allows you to make isk as if you had 1 person sat controlling each account, which means earning isk at the normal rate, not exceeding it. which isn't breaking the rules. it's only breaking the rules once you exceed it.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Thalen Draganos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#162 - 2013-02-14 21:01:18 UTC
Kate stark wrote:
Thalen Draganos wrote:
To add to my above post:

Do you people realize just how many people run multiple accounts simultaneously (a.k.a. multibox)?
A lot!
Imagine if you got your way and people were only able to run one account at a time from each computer. Or worse yet, from the same IP address.
Do you realize that would mean, at the very least, a couple hundred thousand USD per month income cut?
Now, if you ran a business, would you be willing to take that kind of hit on your income from your flagship product just because of some whiny people who refuse to understand that running multiple accounts on multiple computers, or even one computer which is not all that expensive if you took time to look, is not against the rules?

Of course not.
Get over it ffs.


money doesn't even come in to it.
multiboxing simply doesn't break the rules.

the only real argument is that multiboxing allows you to make isk as if you had 1 person sat controlling each account, which means earning isk at the normal rate, not exceeding it. which isn't breaking the rules. it's only breaking the rules once you exceed it.


You misunderstand what I'm saying here and in a very big way money is a very large variable in this.
I completely agree with you. I'm a multiboxer myself. I have 7 accounts personally and intend to create more accounts to house characters that I intend to buy from the Character Bazaar. The point I'm making in what you quoted is that, like it or not, CCP is in this to make money. As is every business out there.
No business that has the intent to make money in an increasing fashion will take an income hit of that magnitude because of some whiny, under equipped babies. You know that.
These people who are complaining are probably only capable of running one account at a time, and probably pay for the game out of pocket and don't find it fair that there are people out there like us that use multiple accounts and make bulk products with nothing more than the utilization of in game mechanics and pay for the game with in game funding. They just need to get over it and move on.
Kate stark
#163 - 2013-02-14 21:07:45 UTC
Thalen Draganos wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
Thalen Draganos wrote:
To add to my above post:

Do you people realize just how many people run multiple accounts simultaneously (a.k.a. multibox)?
A lot!
Imagine if you got your way and people were only able to run one account at a time from each computer. Or worse yet, from the same IP address.
Do you realize that would mean, at the very least, a couple hundred thousand USD per month income cut?
Now, if you ran a business, would you be willing to take that kind of hit on your income from your flagship product just because of some whiny people who refuse to understand that running multiple accounts on multiple computers, or even one computer which is not all that expensive if you took time to look, is not against the rules?

Of course not.
Get over it ffs.


money doesn't even come in to it.
multiboxing simply doesn't break the rules.

the only real argument is that multiboxing allows you to make isk as if you had 1 person sat controlling each account, which means earning isk at the normal rate, not exceeding it. which isn't breaking the rules. it's only breaking the rules once you exceed it.


You misunderstand what I'm saying here and in a very big way money is a very large variable in this.
I completely agree with you. I'm a multiboxer myself. I have 7 accounts personally and intend to create more accounts to house characters that I intend to buy from the Character Bazaar. The point I'm making in what you quoted is that, like it or not, CCP is in this to make money. As is every business out there.
No business that has the intent to make money in an increasing fashion will take an income hit of that magnitude because of some whiny, under equipped babies. You know that.
These people who are complaining are probably only capable of running one account at a time, and probably pay for the game out of pocket and don't find it fair that there are people out there like us that use multiple accounts and make bulk products with nothing more than the utilization of in game mechanics and pay for the game with in game funding. They just need to get over it and move on.


i doubt it's even the fact that they can't run more than one account. also i think ccp need multiboxers, this game is quite niche and you've got to make up for a small target audience somehow... multiple accounts are a great way of pulling in extra revenue. i myself have 3 accounts now, not sure if i'm going to get more but i won't say no (especially since when i started i was all "one account is more than enough, i'll never have alts!")

i think it's just envy.

"he has more accounts than me, so he makes more isk than me, so that shouldn't be allowed because i'm not doing it".

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Thalen Draganos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#164 - 2013-02-14 21:13:08 UTC
Kate stark wrote:
Thalen Draganos wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
Thalen Draganos wrote:
To add to my above post:

Do you people realize just how many people run multiple accounts simultaneously (a.k.a. multibox)?
A lot!
Imagine if you got your way and people were only able to run one account at a time from each computer. Or worse yet, from the same IP address.
Do you realize that would mean, at the very least, a couple hundred thousand USD per month income cut?
Now, if you ran a business, would you be willing to take that kind of hit on your income from your flagship product just because of some whiny people who refuse to understand that running multiple accounts on multiple computers, or even one computer which is not all that expensive if you took time to look, is not against the rules?

Of course not.
Get over it ffs.


money doesn't even come in to it.
multiboxing simply doesn't break the rules.

the only real argument is that multiboxing allows you to make isk as if you had 1 person sat controlling each account, which means earning isk at the normal rate, not exceeding it. which isn't breaking the rules. it's only breaking the rules once you exceed it.


You misunderstand what I'm saying here and in a very big way money is a very large variable in this.
I completely agree with you. I'm a multiboxer myself. I have 7 accounts personally and intend to create more accounts to house characters that I intend to buy from the Character Bazaar. The point I'm making in what you quoted is that, like it or not, CCP is in this to make money. As is every business out there.
No business that has the intent to make money in an increasing fashion will take an income hit of that magnitude because of some whiny, under equipped babies. You know that.
These people who are complaining are probably only capable of running one account at a time, and probably pay for the game out of pocket and don't find it fair that there are people out there like us that use multiple accounts and make bulk products with nothing more than the utilization of in game mechanics and pay for the game with in game funding. They just need to get over it and move on.


i doubt it's even the fact that they can't run more than one account. also i think ccp need multiboxers, this game is quite niche and you've got to make up for a small target audience somehow... multiple accounts are a great way of pulling in extra revenue. i myself have 3 accounts now, not sure if i'm going to get more but i won't say no (especially since when i started i was all "one account is more than enough, i'll never have alts!")

i think it's just envy.

"he has more accounts than me, so he makes more isk than me, so that shouldn't be allowed because i'm not doing it".

I think that we all had that attitude at one point where we thought that only one account was necessary. Maybe they just need to play a bit longer to understand what we already know.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#165 - 2013-02-14 21:16:57 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:
you can actually multibox with the powershell console windows7 has.Blink


see what you're doing OP, you're gonna make CCP ban the use of windows to play EVE.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Kate stark
#166 - 2013-02-14 21:26:52 UTC
multiboxing doesn't drive prices down.
because 40 multiboxed accounts produce the same amount of "stuff" as 40 individually owned accounts doing the same task.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#167 - 2013-02-14 21:35:22 UTC
Kate stark wrote:
multiboxing doesn't drive prices down.
because 40 multiboxed accounts produce the same amount of "stuff" as 40 individually owned accounts doing the same task.



If 35 of those 40 accounts would not exist, or would be mining much slower, producing fewer minerals, then those accounts are indeed.....


Well, actually, since the removal of drone goo which allowed people to generate minerals via ratting faster than they could generate minerals mining, mineral prices seem to have stabilized near the missioning income equilibrium. I can make 50 million ISK an hour missioning on 2 toons. That is fairly fixed based on bounty payout. If mineral prices drop below this, I stop mining and run missions. if mineral prices rise above this, I quit missioning and go mining....

So, you are correct that multiboxing is not pushing down prices... it is just keeping us at the equilibrium where it is break even whether I should mission or mine.

However, the same argument could be made that true botting does not push down prices.


In either case, the point is moot. The EULA does not say "You can't use automation to push up or down prices". It says "you can't use automation to allow YOU (not per account, but YOU) to acquire good faster than you could without automation".


Kate stark
#168 - 2013-02-14 21:39:03 UTC
if 35 of those accounts didn't exist it's still 5vs5
still producing the same amount of stuff.

either way multiboxing isn't helping ME make more isk than i would without it, it's simply making it easier for me.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#169 - 2013-02-14 21:45:55 UTC
Kate stark wrote:
if 35 of those accounts didn't exist it's still 5vs5
still producing the same amount of stuff.

either way multiboxing isn't helping ME make more isk than i would without it, it's simply making it easier for me.



How could using isboxer to mine on 40 accounts produce only the same amount of goods as mining without isboxer on 5 accounts?

I understnad if you mean per account. However, as stated repeatedly, the EULA doesn't say per account.
Kate stark
#170 - 2013-02-14 21:47:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Kate stark
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
if 35 of those accounts didn't exist it's still 5vs5
still producing the same amount of stuff.

either way multiboxing isn't helping ME make more isk than i would without it, it's simply making it easier for me.



How could using isboxer to mine on 40 accounts produce only the same amount of goods as mining without isboxer on 5 accounts?

I understnad if you mean per account. However, as stated repeatedly, the EULA doesn't say per account.


i doesn't, and i never said it did.
in fact, read what you quoted. i explicitly said all ignoring 35 accounts does is make it 5 vs 5, which is still the same amount of stuff being produced.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#171 - 2013-02-14 22:06:05 UTC
LHA Tarawa wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
multiboxing doesn't drive prices down.
because 40 multiboxed accounts produce the same amount of "stuff" as 40 individually owned accounts doing the same task.



If 35 of those 40 accounts would not exist, or would be mining much slower, producing fewer minerals, then those accounts are indeed.....


Well, actually, since the removal of drone goo which allowed people to generate minerals via ratting faster than they could generate minerals mining, mineral prices seem to have stabilized near the missioning income equilibrium. I can make 50 million ISK an hour missioning on 2 toons. That is fairly fixed based on bounty payout. If mineral prices drop below this, I stop mining and run missions. if mineral prices rise above this, I quit missioning and go mining....

So, you are correct that multiboxing is not pushing down prices... it is just keeping us at the equilibrium where it is break even whether I should mission or mine.

However, the same argument could be made that true botting does not push down prices.


In either case, the point is moot. The EULA does not say "You can't use automation to push up or down prices". It says "you can't use automation to allow YOU (not per account, but YOU) to acquire good faster than you could without automation".




Isboxer still doesn't allow that, cause the 6 man mining fleet owned by 1 guy with an I7 and six monitors can do it just as well as 6 solo guys or 1 ISBoxer guy.

CCP drew this line already and said it was legal. You don't agree, kudos for having an opinion. However you're very wrong, and until the day CCP decided they don't like money and ban ISBoxer, you'll remain very wrong.

Its a great tool that allows you to run your 2nd 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6, and 7th etc account like the first and at the same level as everyone else. No more, no less.

Evemon - a 3rd party program that allows the user to plan ahead his skill queue. Ban?

EFT - A 3rd party program that allows the user to see dps, tank, speed, cap life, test fitting, Ban?

EveHQ - A 3rd party program that allows the user to see skills, plan build jobs, build pos's, plan skills, see corp api, Ban?

Dotlan - A 3rd party Website allowing you to see system stats, check jump ranges, see kill mails, gain intel, check sov holders. Ban?

ISBoxer is no different to any of those tools people use everyday. There are so many indy tools that can give you a read out on if a building project will be profitable, anyone making stuff at a lose is an idiot. Should those be banned too, as they give the user a better isk making chance over those that don't use them? Seeing as only a market shift will change that.

Were is the line, CCP seems to think its in Automation, which ISBoxer doesn't use. A fact no matter how many people try and say it does, it doesn't. CCP line is in Automation, thus all of the above is legal.

Evemon, EFT, EveHQ and Dotlan could been see to give the users an advantage over those that don't. Were are the threads banning those? There isn't one, nor should there be. These things are just software tools, they neither speed up or improve an accounts isk making beyond that of a solo player.

I

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.
Dalto Bane
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#172 - 2013-02-14 22:46:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Dalto Bane
Isboxer uses keymaps to send commands to multiple clients at once. I see no problem here. Give me a few days and i can set up a simlar construct at my home using a physical tool that can do the same thing on multiple keyboards. That aside, you must understand the difference between keymapping, repeaters, script bots, etc. Isboxer is not a bot, period. A person has to physical be at a computer inputing the commands to the client. CCP has already taken their stance on Isboxer, and has also taken their stance on macros... and im not talking about fully automated macros, but ones that allow keybinding with special keys. CCP needs to continue to focus on the automated botting situation and not turn their attention to your issues with multiboxing. Are you gonna petition against multiple accounts too. If you ever used ISboxer, you would know that a person would have to be rainman to successfully do anything more than a bombing run in pvp, or rep himself while throwing out DPS from 2 or3 ships. More success would come from a fleet of diffrent individuals focusing on their individual roles within fleet ops. Let it be also known, that CCP themselves multibox, so good luck with your petition hombre.Big smile

Drops Mic
Klymer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#173 - 2013-02-15 00:24:16 UTC
fleet warp isn't 3rd party but there's that pesky "pattern of gameplay" part of the EULA that people have loved quoting in this thread Twisted

so yeah as far as I'm concerned, it sets the precedent for one click issuing the same command to multiple clients/characters.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#174 - 2013-02-15 05:49:52 UTC
Ironically I don't use isboxer, but I do manually fly two or three ships at once when I rat.

It's not helpful since some reds seem to have realized that when I'm in local (nerf local) they might be able to catch two faction battleships.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Cazador 64
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#175 - 2013-02-15 10:57:31 UTC
Kal Mindar wrote:
I found a fleet of hulks got a boner because I thought I could gank one but they all warped off and I got concorded


I, Kal Mindar, deem that i am crying about boxing programs and ganking is hardcore PVP and I'm mad as hell that I couldn't gank one of those 30 hulks .

At least that's what I read .
Whim Aqayn
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#176 - 2013-02-15 11:20:11 UTC
/signed

Anything to discourage multiboxing.
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#177 - 2013-02-15 13:14:52 UTC  |  Edited by: sYnc Vir
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Ironically I don't use isboxer, but I do manually fly two or three ships at once when I rat.

It's not helpful since some reds seem to have realized that when I'm in local (nerf local) they might be able to catch two faction battleships.


Damn man, you should use ISBoxer then, you'd live cause it would warp you all out 0.1 seconds faster Just ask anyone of the guys wanting it banned, its a clear advantage. RollRollRollRollRoll

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.
Zephyr Taredi
Tier Four Technologies
#178 - 2013-02-15 13:45:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Zephyr Taredi
Amen!
I would like to kill off multiboxing. Twisted
Thalen Draganos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#179 - 2013-02-15 14:25:13 UTC
Zephyr Taredi wrote:
Amen!
I would like to kill off multiboxing. Twisted

Why?
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#180 - 2013-02-15 14:28:00 UTC
Kal Mindar wrote:
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
http://technabob.com/blog/2010/04/11/eve-multi-boxing-rig/

Copy and paste the link. With large sums of money or spare equipment, you don't need a program to multi-box. Would you ban the above also simply because you can't do it?



Umm. No. My problem is with a program that takes 1 click and duplicates it 30 times. Again, why should they be allowed to warp all 30 hulks let's say, back to a pos with 1 click. How does this reinforce the main theme of action vs. consequence that this game is underpinned by?

What do you think that rig lets the operator do?

It's all mechanical rather than digital, but it's the same effect.

I'm of the opinion that multi-boxing is fundamentally cheating from the word go, but it's part of the game design here so I won't argue with people who find ways to do it more efficiently as long as they don't have software playing for them.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs