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Petition - Full ban of multi boxing programs which duplicate clicks.

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#121 - 2013-02-13 20:20:33 UTC
Kate stark wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Not to sound like Donna Summer, but I work hard for the money. Nobody should have EVE-as-EZ.

weakest argument ever.

why should i be penalised just because i can afford more accounts than you?

Make smaller better.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#122 - 2013-02-13 20:28:35 UTC
My friend runs 5 accounts with Ishtars in nullsec.

Its stupid to let him duplicate one clients actions to the other 4 accounts and it shouldn't be allowed.

End of story.

However he pays 5 times more than I do and money talks.

Not today spaghetti.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#123 - 2013-02-13 21:14:10 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
My friend runs 5 accounts with Ishtars in nullsec.

Its stupid to let him duplicate one clients actions to the other 4 accounts and it shouldn't be allowed.

End of story.

However he pays 5 times more than I do and money talks.




Multiboxing those 5 ships and still pay real his subs instead of buy plex from market, he's really doing it wrong.

There's no challenge on using ISBoxer except a couple days to get used to it, and as far as you are not mentally challenged or disturbed, takes about a couple seconds to realize your global net income goes exponential per sup account added.

Then it's a matter of hardware and if you're not playing with an old DX-25 or Amiga but a recent rig, you actually play Eve without getting out of your pocket a single dime and on top, get a huge amount of isk in a very short period of time you could never ever do with a single or 2 characters.

End of story (mine in this case) is that yes I do agree that for each multiboxing player it ruins exponentially the game for many single/double account players.

CCP doesn't see any issue with this and clearly supports it, from here each one is free to think on his own how much he feels respected as paying customer or how much this single point adds/takes fun from the time/money he's willing to put in this game.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Ohishi
Apocalypse Reign
#124 - 2013-02-13 21:28:33 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Ohishi wrote:
Even if everyone who multiboxed only had 1 extra account, imagine how much revenue you lose by people, we'll say 25% of the total account holders multibox, canceling their 2 accounts over not being able to multibox. That would be over 100k accounts gone. I would bet that the percent of multiple account holders is higher and I know that most have more than just 1 extra account.


You know those extra accounts and thx to isboxer, increase exponentially your IG income. This is a fact.
Less demand for plex drives prices down at an acceptable level the 'normal" player would actually buy it, plex price being driven down you need to sell +plex to get the same isk, how's this bad for CCP?

The normal player would buy it, but who would sell it when 1 plex doesn't even give you enough ISK to fit 1 T1 battleship? Let alone how much T2 would cost because the people that multiboxed the supply and manufacturing chains needed to produce those materials no longer play. So less GTC purchased for plex because it's not worth it to do so is very bad for CCP.

Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek what they sought.

Kate stark
#125 - 2013-02-13 21:30:35 UTC
anyway guys, why are you all so against cheaper ships and higher purchasing power for non-miners?
surely you want to be able to buy more ships, and lose more ships, right? more time pvping less time grinding isk to pvp.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#126 - 2013-02-13 21:31:39 UTC
ships get too cheap, losses don't matter

ships get too expensive, nobody PvPs

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Kate stark
#127 - 2013-02-13 21:41:19 UTC
Andski wrote:
ships get too cheap, losses don't matter

ships get too expensive, nobody PvPs


then surely, after the loot and drone region changes we want more multiboxers to bring the prices back down to pre-drone/loot change prices?

or did losses not matter then?

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#128 - 2013-02-13 22:00:16 UTC
Kal Mindar wrote:
With the recent news of the Eve-uni multi box botting scandal, I think it is time to ban multi box programs.
Any program that allows 1 player to operate 30 characters, even just for movement, should not be allowed. Why are they allowed to hit 1 button and insta warp 30 characters to safety instead of dealing with the consequences of not being able to manually move them all in time to prevent a gank. A click is a click and any program that duplicates one is not following the spirit of action vs. consequence that this amazing game is based upon.


I, Kal Mindar, deem that multi boxing programs are a EULA breaking form of automation that undermines the integrity of this game.



Pardon my confusion but cant you fleet warp them all?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#129 - 2013-02-13 22:09:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Kate stark wrote:
Andski wrote:
ships get too cheap, losses don't matter

ships get too expensive, nobody PvPs


then surely, after the loot and drone region changes we want more multiboxers to bring the prices back down to pre-drone/loot change prices?

or did losses not matter then?


a titan hull, with a doomsday and jump portal mod, would set you back about 40b back then, unless you were a scrub who bought from builders on the open market

so, no, they literally did not matter - I'd rather not go back to the days of <10b supercarriers

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#130 - 2013-02-13 22:12:46 UTC
Quit Whining wrote:
This thread is over already, as it's been clearly pointed out, the GMs have already ruled that it's fine.


The OP was asking for a change in policy. If you were able to read the actual thread before posting in it, you'd know that.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
GreenSeed
#131 - 2013-02-13 22:28:44 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Quit Whining wrote:
This thread is over already, as it's been clearly pointed out, the GMs have already ruled that it's fine.


The OP was asking for a change in policy. If you were able to read the actual thread before posting in it, you'd know that.

a change in policy that's not going to happen, if you were able to at least get a clue of how multiboxing is impossible to police from a legal standpoint, not just in eve but in any other game, you'd know not to insist on it.

the only way around it is to change the EULA to allow only one instance of the client to run "legally" like Diablo3 does, or to force users to have only one account like many F2P Games do. Option "A" only works in the US thanks to the ruling in case MDY Industries, LLC v. Blizzard, and that court ruling will get challenged again soon... and option "B" wont work as long as there's a economical incentive not to apply it. Pirate

and... there you go... cant be done. eve wont go back from multiclient/multiaccount set ups. not now that it hosts monthly offers for people to get alts.

so, please give up already and go find something else to get mad about please. Blink

bye bye.
Zhantiii Arnoux
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2013-02-14 00:39:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhantiii Arnoux
Just make you able to train all 3 characters on 1 account, because atm i dont see any reason to have more then 1 character on a account, why does that seem so bad, you can only be logged in with 1 anyway, and then just make it illegal to use multiboxing, but then you wont have as many subscribing accounts huh... Nahh CCP get your act toghter, even a 3 year old cna see your toilet is clogged and **** is stacking up :P

And for the state of these forums... wow xbox live chats are more intelligent :P
Thalen Draganos
Nabisco Liberation Collective
#133 - 2013-02-14 02:43:30 UTC
It seems that the main problem is knowing the difference between automation and duplication.

Automation of commands, such as botting, is an illegal activity that uses one set of human commands and replicates it further without human input.

ISBoxer command duplication is very very different. That is taking one command at a time and duplicating it to multiple clients. Not through automation but through duplication.

ISBoxer just makes the job of running multiple accounts more practical. not necessarily easier (have any of you complainers looked in to the preparation required?). There is nothing wrong with that.

On the other hand, this problem may be just jealousy. Those of us that can multibox have better computers than you, or know how to do it and you don't, or some other such silliness. Just get over it haters. Simple as that.
Jimmy Gunsmythe
Sebiestor Tribe
#134 - 2013-02-14 02:57:55 UTC
Either define the EULA more clearly in relation to all these types of programs, or remove them from the game entirely. The whole thing is becoming a debacle that could have been easily avoided if one of the above had been implemented.

John Hancock
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#135 - 2013-02-14 03:00:04 UTC
Thalen Draganos wrote:


ISBoxer command duplication is very very different. That is taking one command at a time and duplicating it to multiple clients. Not through automation but through duplication.

ISBoxer just makes the job of running multiple accounts more practical. not necessarily easier (have any of you complainers looked in to the preparation required?). There is nothing wrong with that.



How is a software analysing your input and replication them for you to X other clients at the same time not an automation? If there was only a duplication of command, you clicking the lock button to lock a roid for example would only cause the eve client to tell you you are already targetting that roid. The automation make sure all the separate command are sent to the right instance of the client running instead of all at the same one as would happen if the multiboxer software was opnly making an exact duplicate of the input you did.

Unless you ahve a way to send command to a software without first telling the computer to start interfacing to that instance instead of the one you were previously focusing on.

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#136 - 2013-02-14 03:29:35 UTC
Thalen Draganos wrote:
ISBoxer command duplication is very very different. That is taking one command at a time and duplicating it to multiple clients. Not through automation but through duplication.


The essential argument here is whether duplication is any different to automation.

Does duplication save the human effort by performing a predetermined activity on the player's behalf? Yes it does. The user can trigger any number of ships to activate particular modules with one keypress. Without that level of automation, the player would have to emit one keypress for each ship in the fleet participating in the action.

Here's another example for you: I have a web site I built which analyses the market and determines optimal put/bid order values. One option I have is to double-click each order, type in the new number (or copy/paste from the web site), then click a button to submit the change to the order. If keystroke macros are allowed, what's the difference between a keystroke macro and my software typing in the sequence of keystrokes for me?

What if I get my software to program a macro key on my keyboard to emit the appropriate series of keystrokes to change the order for me?

What about the following keystroke macro:


  1. Shift+Down
  2. Ctrl+C (or Command+C for Mac users)
  3. Alt+Tab
  4. Enter
  5. Tab
  6. Paste
  7. Enter
  8. Alt+Tab
  9. Down


This keystroke macro will copy the current line of text from one window, switch to the other window, open up the market order, alter the order, switch back to the text window, then move the cursor to the next line (the next invocation of the macro will copy that line, rinse repeat).

Is this automation or not?

If it is not automation or botting, then I'll be using this technique to update about 30 market orders per minute (well, slightly less due to latency and the fact that my "gaming" computer is a slow piece of junk).

Of course CCP does have the option of rate-limiting certain actions: in what world would it make sense to allow market orders to be updated more frequently than about one update every 5 seconds? I'm sure their records will be able to show that there is a certain minimum amount of time they could allow which will not impact humans, but will significantly hinder bots.

But this is assuming that the use of assistive technologies such as AppleScript, HTML5+CSS+JS web apps and very complex software monitoring market behaviour, does not constitute automation of gameplay.

I would suggest that automation is anything which makes it easier for you to play the game than it is for me. I use Synergy to share one mouse and keyboard between multiple computers: not for keystroke broadcasting, but as a virtual KVM. When I want to activate modules on three ships, I mouse to that window, click the button, mouse to the second window, click the button, mouse to the third window, click the button. Being able to coordinate weapons fire between 30 ships so that they all fire in the same server tick is a significant advantage of the multiboxer over the fleet of 30 humans talking on voice comms.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#137 - 2013-02-14 04:05:06 UTC
You have to love timing, I found myself reading this thread, while setting up something just like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFBfmk2yS2c&feature=youtu.be

One has to chuckle.

ISBoxer is legal, CCP has deemed it legal because it

A. It isn't a bot,
B. Helps players run more accounts and increase CCP income.

Doesn't matter if you disagree, doesn't matter if you have a solid, overpowered opinion against its use. As long as B is on that list, nothing you say will have CCP ban ISBoxer. Not unless there cool with a ton of accounts going Inactive.

By the by, someone pointed out that making eve one pc 1 client would stop this. Hate to break it to you, but ur nope. Perpetuum is like that and you can get around it quite easy.

Enjoy the drake fleet, and if you'd like to try ISBoxer I could help you out with a 15 days extra free....to much? Fine.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#138 - 2013-02-14 04:15:07 UTC
sYnc Vir wrote:
You have to love timing, I found myself reading this thread, while setting up something just like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFBfmk2yS2c&feature=youtu.be

One has to chuckle.

ISBoxer is legal, CCP has deemed it legal because it

A. It isn't a bot,
B. Helps players run more accounts and increase CCP income.

Doesn't matter if you disagree, doesn't matter if you have a solid, overpowered opinion against its use. As long as B is on that list, nothing you say will have CCP ban ISBoxer. Not unless there cool with a ton of accounts going Inactive.

By the by, someone pointed out that making eve one pc 1 client would stop this. Hate to break it to you, but ur nope. Perpetuum is like that and you can get around it quite easy.

Enjoy the drake fleet, and if you'd like to try ISBoxer I could help you out with a 15 days extra free....to much? Fine.

One wonders, if you had (probably separate) logistics, you could handle the F1 work via multiboxing. Because after all, apparently fleets are just "target the primary and press F1" righttttttt~~~~?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#139 - 2013-02-14 04:18:35 UTC  |  Edited by: sYnc Vir
Alavaria Fera wrote:
sYnc Vir wrote:
You have to love timing, I found myself reading this thread, while setting up something just like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFBfmk2yS2c&feature=youtu.be

One has to chuckle.

ISBoxer is legal, CCP has deemed it legal because it

A. It isn't a bot,
B. Helps players run more accounts and increase CCP income.

Doesn't matter if you disagree, doesn't matter if you have a solid, overpowered opinion against its use. As long as B is on that list, nothing you say will have CCP ban ISBoxer. Not unless there cool with a ton of accounts going Inactive.

By the by, someone pointed out that making eve one pc 1 client would stop this. Hate to break it to you, but ur nope. Perpetuum is like that and you can get around it quite easy.

Enjoy the drake fleet, and if you'd like to try ISBoxer I could help you out with a 15 days extra free....to much? Fine.

One wonders, if you had (probably separate) logistics, you could handle the F1 work via multiboxing. Because after all, apparently fleets are just "target the primary and press F1" righttttttt~~~~?


You can

Edit. I removed some stuff because it would just be showing off for the person in question. However, given how ISBoxer is legal. I will state, that why drop the logi from the program? It can hand non mirrored ships you know. Not all your toons have to be in the drake.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#140 - 2013-02-14 04:26:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
sYnc Vir wrote:
Edit. I removed some stuff because it would just be showing off for the person in question. However, given how ISBoxer is legal. I will state, that why drop the logi from the program? It can hand non mirrored ships you know. Not all your toons have to be in the drake. [/i]

Time for a multiboxing Caracal/Scythe fleet.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?