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Petition - Full ban of multi boxing programs which duplicate clicks.

First post First post
Author
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#321 - 2013-02-20 22:36:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Klymer wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Klymer wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:

I don't think it's an argument of whats allowed or how to compare. It's a simple matter of saying "it should NOT be allowed and here is why...".

As much as it is legal, you can't say it is NOT close to botting, no matter what the GM says is allowed or not.



You should have stopped right there...

There's nothing simple about ignoring other people's opinions in favor of your own. Very bad things happen when people do that, as history shows.

Argument is a good thing.



Sounds like you're in favor of straying off topic.... I'm not.


Are you sure you know that the topic is? You obviously don't know how a bot works nor do you know how multiboxing software like ISBoxer works. Of course you aren't alone as there are quite a few people in this thread that don't know what the differences are either, so I'll throw you all a bone.

Mining bots will continue to mine, dock, unload their ore holds and then go back and mine some more without any intervention from a live person.





Whitehound wrote:

Multiboxer Botting programs hardly contribute to the number of ship explosions, they are emotionless machines and dominate the economy over real, living, feeling players.

There is your argument.


FTFY





Well, considering I can read (start with the topic) and have used various versions of said software as well as similiar programs in different games...


Yes, I think I do know what the topic is about. But I don't think you can accept the fact that isboxer has many many uses.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Klymer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#322 - 2013-02-20 23:11:17 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:


Well, considering I can read (start with the topic) and have used various versions of said software as well as similiar programs in different games...


Yes, I think I do know what the topic is about. But I don't think you can accept the fact that isboxer has many many uses.



Are you admitting to using ISBoxer for something it wasn't designed to do?

The ISBoxer website clearly states

Quote:
ISBoxer does not provide any automation, autofire, botting, hacks or other cheating functionality.


So I have to ask, what other "uses" have you been using it for?


Lord Battlestar
CALIMA COLLABORATIVE
Atrox Urbanis Respublique Abundatia
#323 - 2013-02-20 23:19:08 UTC
I support this!

I once podded myself by blowing a huge fart.

Styth spiting
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#324 - 2013-02-20 23:27:42 UTC
Google Voices wrote:
"3.You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play."

Isboxer clearly breaks the EULA by facilitating the ability of a single person to use an army to facilitate the acquisition of items at an accelerated rate. You could not run 20 clients yourself at anywhere near the efficiency that Isboxer allows.


IsBoxer can be setup in a way to break the EULA, but then again many laptops, mice and game pads can also be setup in a way to break the EULA in the same way.

I use IsBoxer because of its great support for virutalization, ease of movement between windows and the ability to setup video feeds so I can view data from different applications all in one window.

Banning a tool because it can be used in a way that goes against the EULA would mean banning all types of hardware and software that players use not knowing the software or hardware was capable of doing things that are bannable offences and would mean massive bannings of players unknowingly using devices that were not allowed.
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#325 - 2013-02-21 01:28:03 UTC
I wonder how many subs ISBoxer has gotten from this thread.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.

Klymer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#326 - 2013-02-21 01:36:58 UTC
I scrolled back a few pages and didn't see this mentioned so I figured it needed to be posted here since it's relevant. I added the bold and underline so people would see that it was updated just a couple of days ago.

Original Post - Have to scroll down a bit to see it, so I've quoted the full text here.


Quote:

Edited by: GM Lelouch on 18/02/2013 08:29:22
Addendum by GM Lelouch:
This post was originally written almost three years ago and as software/hardware evolves, so must our stance on what goes within our game. It has become increasingly difficult for us to track the capabilities of various pieces of software over the years as their number, as well as the features they offer, increase greatly in number.

In other words, it is unfortunately impractical for us to evaluate whether specific pieces of software can be used without breaking EVE's EULA/ToS. This post should not be taken as endorsement for utilizing specific pieces of software/hardware with EVE, but as a guideline to what is acceptable.

Our general stance towards the concept of multiboxing has not changed but we cannot guarantee that the EULA is being upheld should you use any of the software/hardware mentioned by name in this post, nor will we at EVE customer support be able to officially endorse or sanction specific third party multiboxing programs.

Players wishing to multibox are responsible for familiarizing themselves with our EULA and Terms of Service, the following clauses in particular are of much relevance to this topic:

EULA:
6. CONDUCT
A. Specifically Restricted Conduct
2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played.
3. You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.

ToS:
21. You will not attempt to decipher, hack into or interfere with any transmissions to or from the EVE Online servers, nor will you try to create or use any third party add-ons, extras or tools for the game.

The old, out of date, post can be seen below as it originally appeared:

"Hello there,

To make a long story short, automation of gameplay is not permitted; players must be manually issuing the commands to control their character(s) at all times.

Our stance on programs such as Synergy and hardware/software combination such as the G15 keyboard is that they can be legitimately used as long as gameplay isn't automated. Synergy allows you to move your mouse cursor to multiple different monitors which are hooked up to different computers and we do not have any qualms with players using the program for this purpose. If Synergy was used in some way to control your accounts for you without a need for you to be at your keyboard, then that would not be allowed, but I am not aware of such a functionality with this program. If Synergy is used in conjunction with some other program to automate gameplay, it would not be permitted. G15 "macros" which allow you to group different commands into one keypress are allowed. For example, setting your G1 key to press F1, F2, F3 and so on for you with one key press is allowed (although this specific command is not as useful as it was before now that we have weapon grouping).

An exceedingly complex G15 macro which would effectively automate gameplay, such as mining, without a need for the player to be present at his keyboard would be against the EULA, regardless of whether the player utilizing said macro is sitting at his keyboard at the time!

Lastly, multiboxing is allowed, and programs designed for multiboxing in mind which allow a player to manually issue the same command to multiple game clients at the same time are allowed. In the same vein as what has been stated above, the player must be manually sending the commands; if a program is automating those commands for you, then it would be considered a breach of our EULA.

I hope this clears up this matter."



My take on this is make yourself aware of the rules and if you think something breaks them, and it worries you, then don't do it. If your not sure and decide to petition it and let the GM's sort it out, be prepared to accept whatever consequences come as a result of your actions.
Bane Veradun
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#327 - 2013-02-21 01:59:33 UTC
I personally believe that CCP picks and chooses what bots are ok and which aren't. It may not be a fully automated bot, but I don't agree that ISBoxer should be allowed in the game, as it allows an advantage over a person who has mulitple accounts and chooses not to use it. If the end results were the same between a ISB user and someone who does not use it, then I would have no reason to object, but they aren't.

Unfortunately, CCP has chosen to allow this semi-bot program, and that's just how it is right now.

Hi.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#328 - 2013-02-21 07:52:08 UTC
Klymer wrote:


So I have to ask, what other "uses" have you been using it for?



He's using it as laxative suppository.
dark heartt
#329 - 2013-02-21 08:06:28 UTC
Why has this thread not been locked yet?
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#330 - 2013-02-21 08:30:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Grimpak
Bane Veradun wrote:
Unfortunately, CCP has chosen to allow this semi-bot program, and that's just how it is right now.

how in the nine hells is a program that simply duplicates (not automates) your keystrokes over several clients even remotely behaving like a bot or a "semi-bot"?

let me say this again:
- you're not automating jack all(automation does not imply duplication nor vice versa)
- the accounts aren't acquiring resources/isk nor doing keystrokes nor doing market updates faster than any human powered account, because they are human powered.

ergo, according to the EULA, you're not breaking nothing, and you're not botting nor "semi-botting". all you have is disdain for people that can afford multiple accounts.

dark heartt wrote:
Why has this thread not been locked yet?



because many people are waiting for a dev reply?

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Kate stark
#331 - 2013-02-21 09:53:16 UTC
ITT; butthurt players who can't afford multiple accounts selectively reading the EULA in order to try and get isoboxer banned for.... no apparent reason what so ever.

this thread really does need locking, or something.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.

Ohishi
Apocalypse Reign
#332 - 2013-02-21 10:24:10 UTC
Bane Veradun wrote:
I personally believe that CCP picks and chooses what bots are ok and which aren't. It may not be a fully automated bot, but I don't agree that ISBoxer should be allowed in the game, as it allows an advantage over a person who has mulitple accounts and chooses not to use it. If the end results were the same between a ISB user and someone who does not use it, then I would have no reason to object, but they aren't.

Unfortunately, CCP has chosen to allow this semi-bot program, and that's just how it is right now.

I love how this post is the next one after a quote of a GM said that one of the main features in ISBoxer is allowed. Key broadcasting is not a bot you twits. It does not automate anything, and if you are going to use that argument then just get rid of 2+ more accounts all together. Because every player that has 2 accounts has an advantage over someone that only has 1... Then next we can get rid of all the accounts that were started in 2003 because they have a training advantage over everyone that started in 2013. Multiboxing is here to stay and with it programs such as ISBoxer and Synergy. So HTFU.

Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek what they sought.

Yim Sei
Ontogenic Achronycal PLC
#333 - 2013-02-21 10:33:57 UTC
supported.

ban multiboxing software.

Post with my main? This is my main - I just overtrain and overplay my alts.

Whitehound
#334 - 2013-02-21 10:42:29 UTC
Xado Employee 93847-E1 wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Xado Employee 93847-E1 wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Multiboxer hardly contribute to the number of ship explosions, they are emotionless machines and dominate the economy over real, living, feeling players.

There is your argument.


I can assure you sir that I do indeed have feelings!

Sure you do, but not all your many characters.


I checked with all 17 employees of Xado Industries and they all said they had feelings.

Do they cry in local when they get shot? Will they beg for mercy?

Or will they only be replaced?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Bob Nesta Marley
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#335 - 2013-02-21 11:21:56 UTC
Boy ya know erry tossah in heya dey be usin programs ta duplicate dey actions, seen?

Dey be biased ain't no seein it be a game killah. Remove da wool from dey eyes, brudda.
Andres Talas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#336 - 2013-02-21 11:39:26 UTC
Dante Uisen wrote:
Kal Mindar wrote:
Any program that allows 1 player to operate 30 characters, even just for movement, should not be allowed. Why are they allowed to hit 1 button and insta warp 30 characters to safety instead of dealing with the consequences of not being able to manually move them all in time to prevent a gank.


Yes, fleet warp should be a banable offense.


/signed.

And Im fine with making people warp themselves, and target their own drones.
Jason Xado
Doomheim
#337 - 2013-02-21 12:00:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Jason Xado
Whitehound wrote:
Xado Employee 93847-E1 wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Xado Employee 93847-E1 wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Multiboxer hardly contribute to the number of ship explosions, they are emotionless machines and dominate the economy over real, living, feeling players.

There is your argument.


I can assure you sir that I do indeed have feelings!

Sure you do, but not all your many characters.


I checked with all 17 employees of Xado Industries and they all said they had feelings.

Do they cry in local when they get shot? Will they beg for mercy?

Or will they only be replaced?


It is against our corporate policy to speak through unsecured local communication networks during battle situations. Also all my employees are licensed pod pilots, therefore they never need to be replaced, just given a new clone.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#338 - 2013-02-22 17:18:32 UTC
Klymer wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


Well, considering I can read (start with the topic) and have used various versions of said software as well as similiar programs in different games...


Yes, I think I do know what the topic is about. But I don't think you can accept the fact that isboxer has many many uses.



Are you admitting to using ISBoxer for something it wasn't designed to do?

The ISBoxer website clearly states

Quote:
ISBoxer does not provide any automation, autofire, botting, hacks or other cheating functionality.


So I have to ask, what other "uses" have you been using it for?





Key broadcasting CAN be used, I didn't. Some people don't use isboxer for that. I hated keybroadcasting in other games I have used the program for. In eve, when I had multiple accounts, I used isboxer (and tried other programs before that) for window location/real estate on my monitor.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Vicata Heth
Sensible People
Sigma Grindset
#339 - 2013-02-25 13:26:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Vicata Heth
Kal Mindar wrote:
With the recent news of the Eve-uni multi box botting scandal, I think it is time to ban multi box programs.
Any program that allows 1 player to operate 30 characters, even just for movement, should not be allowed. Why are they allowed to hit 1 button and insta warp 30 characters to safety instead of dealing with the consequences of not being able to manually move them all in time to prevent a gank. A click is a click and any program that duplicates one is not following the spirit of action vs. consequence that this amazing game is based upon.


I, Kal Mindar, deem that multi boxing programs are a EULA breaking form of automation that undermines the integrity of this game.


Edit:
This is pretty sad. I have never seen such a lack of reading comprehension in my life. I started this thread to petition against ONE thing only and that was Duplication of clicks via a 3rd party program.
From there, you guys have talked about fleet warp being duplication? Really? An in game feature is 3rd party software?
Ban multi boxing? Are you kidding? No one said anything about one person being able to control multiple accounts.
OP is just mad/poor/idiot/etc..... I use 4 accounts to play this game, I multi box, I have plenty of $ thank you for isboxer or more accounts.

Give your collective heads a shake. This thread is about a program doing the work that a person should have to do in order to keep the playing field even. Eve central fine. Spreadsheets fine. Pyfa fine. None of these perform in game clicks for players. You have to understand clicks are what sets the tempo for how long it takes to do things. Automate any part of it and it undermines the level playing field that must be there. Anyway, some really great posts for both sides of the discussion. Just too bad so many people seem to have missed some simple points to keep this thread on topic. Hopefully CCP got some good player input and can use it to continue making this game freaking amazing.

I love you all.

Fly safe o7.

Kal


The general rule of thumb, is if you're actually at the computer controlling the actions then it's allowed. This means keyboard macros such as the ones offered by the G15 keyboard are allowed. And mouse/keyboard broadcasting such as that offered in ISBoxer is also allowed.

Also afaik the eve-uni botting scandal had pretty much nothing to do with multiboxing, and everything to do with the automation of actions without input from the user. Basically he was running a market bot, in a very stupid way, and got busted for it. Get over it, ISBoxer, nor key broadcasting helped in any way. I highly doubt he was even using key broadcasting. Way to completely **** your argument before it even starts.

I assure you, if you dual boxed bombers you would see how fun it is, and petition yourself for suggesting the banning of such an awesome ability.

Other than that... HTFU and go **** yourself.

EDIT: If only you weren't blue to me, I would run a locator on you and show you how fun dual boxing bombers is.
Eternal Error
Doomheim
#340 - 2013-02-25 15:03:01 UTC
/signed