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Petition - Full ban of multi boxing programs which duplicate clicks.

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Kate stark
#261 - 2013-02-18 22:15:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Kate stark
Murk Paradox wrote:
If you want to load a question with semantics, that's fine. We aren't talking about generating "MORE" income, like per cycle or anything. We are comparing a program automaticing and having an unfair influence over someone at their keyboard personally interacting with the game.

So yes, I did answer your question. I'm sorry it just wasn't what you wanted to hear, but it still shows how someone using a key/mouse broadcaster has a mechanical advantage over someone without.


i didn't load anything with semantics, i just asked you a question.

no, you didn't answer my question, and you still haven't.

how. does. it. generate. more. isk? [ergo, how does it give some one an "unfair influence over someone at their keyboard personally interacting with the game?]
see my earlier tip if you get stuck.

well of course some one using isoboxer has an advantage to some one without isoboxer all else being equal, but that's not even relevant to the question i asked you. that's just stating the obvious (and irrelevant).

also, for the love of god, please just answer my question.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#262 - 2013-02-18 22:25:07 UTC
Kate stark wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
If you want to load a question with semantics, that's fine. We aren't talking about generating "MORE" income, like per cycle or anything. We are comparing a program automaticing and having an unfair influence over someone at their keyboard personally interacting with the game.

So yes, I did answer your question. I'm sorry it just wasn't what you wanted to hear, but it still shows how someone using a key/mouse broadcaster has a mechanical advantage over someone without.


i didn't load anything with semantics, i just asked you a question.

no, you didn't answer my question, and you still haven't.

how. does. it. generate. more. isk? [ergo, how does it give some one an "unfair influence over someone at their keyboard personally interacting with the game?]
see my earlier tip if you get stuck.

well of course some one using isoboxer has an advantage to some one without isoboxer all else being equal, but that's not even relevant to the question i asked you. that's just stating the obvious (and irrelevant).

also, for the love of god, please just answer my question.



I did already answer your question. It's simple. If you get 20 isk extra per account per click/cycle you have 20 isk for 1 click right?

Now, multibox with 20 accounts and do that same "one click" and compute the isk. You are one person reaping the rewards for 20 peoples' worth of work by expelling the effort of one person. That's how you as 1 multiboxer of 20 accounts gets more isk than 20 accounts played by 20 people. Now, if you clicked each account personally, then the argument doesn't exist.

(hint it involves math)

You get a better isk generation because of the amount of multitasking each click performs. Per, Click.


So no matter how fast you are at keybinds and alt tabbing, that automated program will always be faster and therefore "unfair influence".

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#263 - 2013-02-18 22:28:05 UTC
If you want things spelled out at a more academic rate by all means compute the time it would take to manually click 20 accounts at one time to do 1 action and I'll tell you how much of an accelerated rate a broadcaster will help you acquire isk/items.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Kate stark
#264 - 2013-02-18 22:31:46 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
If you want to load a question with semantics, that's fine. We aren't talking about generating "MORE" income, like per cycle or anything. We are comparing a program automaticing and having an unfair influence over someone at their keyboard personally interacting with the game.

So yes, I did answer your question. I'm sorry it just wasn't what you wanted to hear, but it still shows how someone using a key/mouse broadcaster has a mechanical advantage over someone without.


i didn't load anything with semantics, i just asked you a question.

no, you didn't answer my question, and you still haven't.

how. does. it. generate. more. isk? [ergo, how does it give some one an "unfair influence over someone at their keyboard personally interacting with the game?]
see my earlier tip if you get stuck.

well of course some one using isoboxer has an advantage to some one without isoboxer all else being equal, but that's not even relevant to the question i asked you. that's just stating the obvious (and irrelevant).

also, for the love of god, please just answer my question.



I did already answer your question. It's simple. If you get 20 isk extra per account per click/cycle you have 20 isk for 1 click right?

Now, multibox with 20 accounts and do that same "one click" and compute the isk. You are one person reaping the rewards for 20 peoples' worth of work by expelling the effort of one person. That's how you as 1 multiboxer of 20 accounts gets more isk than 20 accounts played by 20 people. Now, if you clicked each account personally, then the argument doesn't exist.

(hint it involves math)

You get a better isk generation because of the amount of multitasking each click performs. Per, Click.


So no matter how fast you are at keybinds and alt tabbing, that automated program will always be faster and therefore "unfair influence".


so, i get 20 isk, on 20 accounts as a multiboxer. so my multiboxing generated.... 400 isk?
then 20 people, with one account each, all generate 20 isk per account and the sum of 20 accounts generate 400 isk.

so they earn the same amount of isk. righty. so in answer to my question, my hint was right; they don't.
guess that means they aren't breaking the eula and all is good.

except, if all 21 people click at the same time, it's taken nobody more, or less time, therefore nobody has had any advantage or disadvantage. in what way is that unfair? 40 accounts have just taken 40 actions, all in the same space of time. what's the problem?

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#265 - 2013-02-18 22:38:30 UTC
Kate stark wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
If you want to load a question with semantics, that's fine. We aren't talking about generating "MORE" income, like per cycle or anything. We are comparing a program automaticing and having an unfair influence over someone at their keyboard personally interacting with the game.

So yes, I did answer your question. I'm sorry it just wasn't what you wanted to hear, but it still shows how someone using a key/mouse broadcaster has a mechanical advantage over someone without.


i didn't load anything with semantics, i just asked you a question.

no, you didn't answer my question, and you still haven't.

how. does. it. generate. more. isk? [ergo, how does it give some one an "unfair influence over someone at their keyboard personally interacting with the game?]
see my earlier tip if you get stuck.

well of course some one using isoboxer has an advantage to some one without isoboxer all else being equal, but that's not even relevant to the question i asked you. that's just stating the obvious (and irrelevant).

also, for the love of god, please just answer my question.



I did already answer your question. It's simple. If you get 20 isk extra per account per click/cycle you have 20 isk for 1 click right?

Now, multibox with 20 accounts and do that same "one click" and compute the isk. You are one person reaping the rewards for 20 peoples' worth of work by expelling the effort of one person. That's how you as 1 multiboxer of 20 accounts gets more isk than 20 accounts played by 20 people. Now, if you clicked each account personally, then the argument doesn't exist.

(hint it involves math)

You get a better isk generation because of the amount of multitasking each click performs. Per, Click.


So no matter how fast you are at keybinds and alt tabbing, that automated program will always be faster and therefore "unfair influence".


so, i get 20 isk, on 20 accounts as a multiboxer. so my multiboxing generated.... 400 isk?
then 20 people, with one account each, all generate 20 isk per account and the sum of 20 accounts generate 400 isk.

so they earn the same amount of isk. righty. so in answer to my question, my hint was right; they don't.
guess that means they aren't breaking the eula and all is good.

except, if all 21 people click at the same time, it's taken nobody more, or less time, therefore nobody has had any advantage or disadvantage. in what way is that unfair? 40 accounts have just taken 40 actions, all in the same space of time. what's the problem?



Yes, at the amount of time and effort it took to do it as 1 account. 1 set of clicks. Not 20.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#266 - 2013-02-18 22:43:33 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
If you want things spelled out at a more academic rate by all means compute the time it would take to manually click 20 accounts at one time to do 1 action and I'll tell you how much of an accelerated rate a broadcaster will help you acquire isk/items.



Its an inane argument that she keeps trying to make - and failing.
"20 Mackinaws mine at the same speed whether they are controlled by one person or by 20, so its perfectly OK."

Flawed because 'botting' doesn't affect the speed at which 20 Mackinaws mine either - whether they are owned by one person or 20.

A Botter with 20 accounts put in "Zero" units of work, get 20 slices of cake.
An ISBoxer with 20 accounts puts in "One" unit of work, gets 20 slices of cake.

I expect miners to put in "Twenty" units of work, to get 20 slices of cake.

I don't think forcing miners to Alt-tab and manually do the logistics for each Exhumer is unrealistic. Its already, by far, the laziest ISK grind in the game.
Kate stark
#267 - 2013-02-18 22:43:44 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
If you want to load a question with semantics, that's fine. We aren't talking about generating "MORE" income, like per cycle or anything. We are comparing a program automaticing and having an unfair influence over someone at their keyboard personally interacting with the game.

So yes, I did answer your question. I'm sorry it just wasn't what you wanted to hear, but it still shows how someone using a key/mouse broadcaster has a mechanical advantage over someone without.


i didn't load anything with semantics, i just asked you a question.

no, you didn't answer my question, and you still haven't.

how. does. it. generate. more. isk? [ergo, how does it give some one an "unfair influence over someone at their keyboard personally interacting with the game?]
see my earlier tip if you get stuck.

well of course some one using isoboxer has an advantage to some one without isoboxer all else being equal, but that's not even relevant to the question i asked you. that's just stating the obvious (and irrelevant).

also, for the love of god, please just answer my question.



I did already answer your question. It's simple. If you get 20 isk extra per account per click/cycle you have 20 isk for 1 click right?

Now, multibox with 20 accounts and do that same "one click" and compute the isk. You are one person reaping the rewards for 20 peoples' worth of work by expelling the effort of one person. That's how you as 1 multiboxer of 20 accounts gets more isk than 20 accounts played by 20 people. Now, if you clicked each account personally, then the argument doesn't exist.

(hint it involves math)

You get a better isk generation because of the amount of multitasking each click performs. Per, Click.


So no matter how fast you are at keybinds and alt tabbing, that automated program will always be faster and therefore "unfair influence".


so, i get 20 isk, on 20 accounts as a multiboxer. so my multiboxing generated.... 400 isk?
then 20 people, with one account each, all generate 20 isk per account and the sum of 20 accounts generate 400 isk.

so they earn the same amount of isk. righty. so in answer to my question, my hint was right; they don't.
guess that means they aren't breaking the eula and all is good.

except, if all 21 people click at the same time, it's taken nobody more, or less time, therefore nobody has had any advantage or disadvantage. in what way is that unfair? 40 accounts have just taken 40 actions, all in the same space of time. what's the problem?



Yes, at the amount of time and effort it took to do it as 1 account. 1 set of clicks. Not 20.


every one clicked once. what's the issue?

nobody clicked more or less than any one else.
nobody got more or less isk than any one else.
nobody spent more or less time than any one else.

what is the problem?

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Kate stark
#268 - 2013-02-18 22:47:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Kate stark
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
If you want things spelled out at a more academic rate by all means compute the time it would take to manually click 20 accounts at one time to do 1 action and I'll tell you how much of an accelerated rate a broadcaster will help you acquire isk/items.



Its an inane argument that she keeps trying to make - and failing.
"20 Mackinaws mine at the same speed whether they are controlled by one person or by 20, so its perfectly OK."

Flawed because 'botting' doesn't affect the speed at which 20 Mackinaws mine either - whether they are owned by one person or 20.

A Botter with 20 accounts put in "Zero" units of work, get 20 slices of cake.
An ISBoxer with 20 accounts puts in "One" unit of work, gets 20 slices of cake.

I expect miners to put in "Twenty" units of work, to get 20 slices of cake.

I don't think forcing miners to Alt-tab and manually do the logistics for each Exhumer is unrealistic. Its already, by far, the laziest ISK grind in the game.



except botting is a totally different subject and as such you're comparing apples to oranges.
i'm not comparing anything i'm just stating how multiboxing doesn't even come close to breaching the eula.

you slightly failed to overlook that a multiboxer is also paying 20x more slices of pie to play the game, but hey, let's only compare like for like when it suits you, shall we?

in any case, i'm not here to discuss botting this thread has nothing to do with botting.

side note: the argument that keeps "failing" is the very argument that points out multiboxing doesn't break the eula. however, of course it's flawed with regards to botting, but as i said we aren't talking about botting.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Klymer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#269 - 2013-02-18 22:56:58 UTC
Save me ISD LackOfFaith, your my only hope.
Kate stark
#270 - 2013-02-18 22:58:05 UTC
Klymer wrote:
Save me ISD LackOfFaith, your my only hope.


putting your faith in some one called lackoffaith is amusing.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#271 - 2013-02-18 23:12:25 UTC
Kate stark wrote:


except botting is a totally different subject and as such you're comparing apples to oranges.
i'm not comparing anything i'm just stating how multiboxing doesn't even come close to breaching the eula.

you slightly failed to overlook that a multiboxer is also paying 20x more slices of pie to play the game, but hey, let's only compare like for like when it suits you, shall we?

in any case, i'm not here to discuss botting this thread has nothing to do with botting.


I'm simply pointing out that your argument that
"Because ISBoxing doesn't make Mackinaws mine faster - its A-OK!!!"
is irrelevant.

The reason that botting annoys people is because it breaks the work/reward equation build into the game.
Zero units of work in, 20 rewards out.

ISBoxing, likewise, annoys people for identical reasons, breaking the work/reward equation.
One unit of work in, 20 rewards out.

"Oh, but he still put in one unit of work, so its not botting, therefore, its OK!"

No it isn't.
Not if a 3rd party software tool is being used to multiply that unit of work 20, 50 or 100 times.
Multiboxing is fine - if the boxes are being manually controlled without click replication.
After all, game interface is DESIGNED to put limits on what you can do, and how fast you can do them.
Perhaps growing a tail, or extra arms will help, but I'd check with CCP first.

The long and the short of its? If its not currently against EULA, it should be. Which is the point of this thread.
To revisit the policy -especially in light of the recent ill-advised changes to cargo capacity for Macks/Retrievers.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#272 - 2013-02-18 23:17:15 UTC
Klymer wrote:
Save me ISD LackOfFaith, your my only hope.


Actually, I was kind of hoping this thread sticks around for a good long while, maybe hits 50 pages or so.
Might actually get some GM consideration....

On the other hand, when James 315 is on the CSM, I'm sure he'll also bring it up in Iceland.
Kate stark
#273 - 2013-02-18 23:24:09 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Kate stark wrote:


except botting is a totally different subject and as such you're comparing apples to oranges.
i'm not comparing anything i'm just stating how multiboxing doesn't even come close to breaching the eula.

you slightly failed to overlook that a multiboxer is also paying 20x more slices of pie to play the game, but hey, let's only compare like for like when it suits you, shall we?

in any case, i'm not here to discuss botting this thread has nothing to do with botting.


I'm simply pointing out that your argument that
"Because ISBoxing doesn't make Mackinaws mine faster - its A-OK!!!"
is irrelevant.

The reason that botting annoys people is because it breaks the work/reward equation build into the game.
Zero units of work in, 20 rewards out.

ISBoxing, likewise, annoys people for identical reasons, breaking the work/reward equation.
One unit of work in, 20 rewards out.

"Oh, but he still put in one unit of work, so its not botting, therefore, its OK!"

No it isn't.
Not if a 3rd party software tool is being used to multiply that unit of work 20, 50 or 100 times.
Multiboxing is fine - if the boxes are being manually controlled without click replication.
After all, game interface is DESIGNED to put limits on what you can do, and how fast you can do them.
Perhaps growing a tail, or extra arms will help, but I'd check with CCP first.

The long and the short of its? If its not currently against EULA, it should be. Which is the point of this thread.
To revisit the policy -especially in light of the recent ill-advised changes to cargo capacity for Macks/Retrievers.


i'm sorry, how is it irrelevant? that's the exact criteria that defines whether or not it breaks the eula, how can the defining criteria be irrelevant?

i don't care about botting, this thread isn't about botting, it's about multiboxing.

except, it doesn't break the work/reward. because the ships all do the same work, get the same reward, and that work and reward is the same for everyone, because that's how the game works. it's not like the ships magically do more dps, mine more ore etc just because i have 30 clients open on my taskbar.

multiboxing doesn't change the fact that the client stops you updating market orders more frequently than every 5 mins, for example. otherwise, that would break the eula because you'd be undercutting people more frequently giving you a higher probability of being the lowest sell order, which means you'd be gaining isk faster than normal game play. multiboxing, does nothing like that, though.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
iskflakes
#274 - 2013-02-18 23:26:24 UTC
The game is designed so that numbers trump skill, which means multiboxing is by design a legitimate way to get ahead. It's not botting. Get that idea out of your head. A human is responsible for all of the input and decisions.

Multiboxing benefits the health of the game overall. The multiboxers actually subsidize your subscription by paying for so many themselves. The extra accounts fund CCP's creation of new features that you will benefit from.

I think what all this crying is really about is people who feel entitled to the success that others have achieved. They see a successful miner with 20 accounts and wonder "why am I only making 10m per hour?". Their instinct is to blame the success of the other guy on "botting" or "cheating", but the truth is he's just better than you and you need to deal with it. If multiboxing is so overpowered why aren't you doing it yourself?

-
Kate stark
#275 - 2013-02-18 23:28:43 UTC
iskflakes wrote:
but the truth is he's just better than you and you need to deal with it.


haha, oh iskflakes, how i love you right now.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#276 - 2013-02-18 23:39:28 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
And yes, duplicating does in fact imply automation. Do you know what a printer does by chance?



you can duplicate stuff without automation, as much as you can automate without duplicating stuff, ergo, duplication does not imply automation.

you can automate a duplication task, like the printers do, but you can run duplication tasks without automation. both are combinable, but at the same time independent of each other.


so, again for the nth time, programs like ISBoxer that require somebody at the helm and do not in any way increase the frequency of clicks beyond what a person can do and more importantly demand that someone needs to be in constant control are, by the rules explicit on Eve's EULA, not ilegal, nor creating extra income, nor automating anything at all.




in fact, if you want to ban ISBoxer, please petition to remove the "warp fleet to" option from gangs, since it's pretty much the same darn thing.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Josef Djugashvilis
#277 - 2013-02-18 23:40:14 UTC
I am too stupid to multi-box, (I wish I was joking) so if I can't do it, other folk should be banned from multi-boxing so that I can compete with them on a level playing field.

That is how Eve works, right?

This is not a signature.
Kate stark
#278 - 2013-02-18 23:41:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Kate stark
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
I am too stupid to multi-box, (I wish I was joking) so if I can't do it, other folk should be banned from multi-boxing so that I can compete with them on a level playing field.

That is how Eve works, right?


your sarcastic honesty pleases me, even if the playing field is already level.

that's certainly how the forums work, not sure about the game itself though.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#279 - 2013-02-18 23:44:07 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
I am too stupid to multi-box, (I wish I was joking) so if I can't do it, other folk should be banned from multi-boxing so that I can compete with them on a level playing field.

That is how Eve works, right?


That's how socialism works. "If I can't do / have something then make sure those who do will also lose it so we all suck at the same level". But EvE is not about socialism. Let's keep that crap mentality out of the one game openly NOT supporting it!

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Josef Djugashvilis
#280 - 2013-02-18 23:51:48 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
I am too stupid to multi-box, (I wish I was joking) so if I can't do it, other folk should be banned from multi-boxing so that I can compete with them on a level playing field.

That is how Eve works, right?


That's how socialism works. "If I can't do / have something then make sure those who do will also lose it so we all suck at the same level". But EvE is not about socialism. Let's keep that crap mentality out of the one game openly NOT supporting it!


It would seem that you are better at Eve than you are at politics.

However, I will not pursue it as it is not allowed and will get us nowhere.

This is not a signature.