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A Hypothetical Skill Question, Would This Be Fair?

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Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#21 - 2013-02-12 17:15:07 UTC
A couple of people need to read again, the hypothetical scenario does not involve removing drone interfacing at all.
Azrin Stella Oerndotte
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-02-12 17:15:35 UTC
Don't fool yourself, if they were going to something like that they would change the skill completely, to some useful or change the requirements for capitals as a mining drone bonus doesn't have anything to do with them.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#23 - 2013-02-12 17:16:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Karl Hobb
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Well, guess what, exactly the same thing is happening with the mining barge skill. Many players trained up the Mining Barge skill to fly the Orca, and now that aspect of the mining barge skill is being taken away.

No aspect of the Mining Barge skill is being taken away, it still allows you to do the exact same thing it did before, which is fly a mining barge. Removing it as a prerequisite for Industrial Command Ships does not, in any way, diminish the abilities of your character, which is what your hypothetical Drone Interfacing change would do.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#24 - 2013-02-12 17:16:56 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Now, according to arguments from some on these forums, this would be perfectly fine, the skill still has a value, despite the fact that you don't mine and so the skill has no actual value to you, the skill still can be used for mining.
Nice strawman. No, no-one has made that argument.

The SP would get reimbursed because the underlying mechanic was removed.

Quote:
Well, guess what, exactly the same thing is happening with the mining barge skill. Many players trained up the Mining Barge skill to fly the Orca
Since the underlying mechanic is not being removed in that case, it's not even remotely the same thing, no.


Come on now Tippia, you cannot argue against this given that this follows the exact same logic as your previous arguments. If you want to be respected then at least remain consistent or admit you were wrong.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#25 - 2013-02-12 17:18:33 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Well, guess what, exactly the same thing is happening with the mining barge skill. Many players trained up the Mining Barge skill to fly the Orca, and now that aspect of the mining barge skill is being taken away.

No aspect of the Mining Barge skill is being taken away, it still allows you to do the exact same thing it did before, which is fly a mining barge. Removing it as a prerequisite for Industrial Command Chips does not, in any way, diminish the abilities of your character, which is what your hypothetical Drone Interfacing change would do.


No it wouldn't. Try reading the example again. CCP would be giving drone base damage a 100% boost and removing the 100% boost from the skill.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2013-02-12 17:18:41 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
I see what you're saying then.
They changed how the skill worked, so they should reimburse the skillpoints and the cost of the skillbook at NPC sell order value. If someone still wants the skill for its mining use, then they could just buy the skillbook again and invest the skillpoints back into the skill it was taken from.

However CCP disagrees with this stance, seeing as the skill Ethnic Relations was recently changed from allowing members of other races in your corp to reducing the cost to hire allies, and renamed Diplomatic Relations. Nobody was reimbursed for this skill in the method I outlined above, however they should have been because they were changing the underlying mechanic of the skill.

This thread however has nothing to do with your complaint regarding the Orca and mining barges skill, which merits no reimbursement whatsoever.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
HostageTaker
Band of Freelancers
#27 - 2013-02-12 17:20:08 UTC
As a 2003 player, I have a **** ton of sp I don't and have not used in ages, do you see my crying on the forums about it?

Idea



- I have Orca capable char.
- I had to leveling barges.
- I don't mine.
- I sure as hell don't cry on the forums about it... things change over time, deal with it!

HTFU, seriously...
Roll


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Titans on fire outside "The Alamo" of NOL-M9. I watched massive Super Capital fleets glitter in the dark near the BKG-Q2 gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain...  Time to die.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#28 - 2013-02-12 17:21:19 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
No it wouldn't. Try reading the example again. CCP would be giving drone base damage a 100% boost and removing the 100% boost from the skill.

In your hypothetical situation, the abilities that the skill affects have been changed and, instead, your competitive advantage gained from training a ~20 day skill is simply given to everyone. This is totally different than removing a prerequisite. Industrial Command Ships is the skill that allows you to fly an Orca, not Mining Barge.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#29 - 2013-02-12 17:21:48 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I see what you're saying then.
They changed how the skill worked, so they should reimburse the skillpoints and the cost of the skillbook at NPC sell order value. If someone still wants the skill for its mining use, then they could just buy the skillbook again and invest the skillpoints back into the skill it was taken from.

However CCP disagrees with this stance, seeing as the skill Ethnic Relations was recently changed from allowing members of other races in your corp to reducing the cost to hire allies, and renamed Diplomatic Relations. Nobody was reimbursed for this skill in the method I outlined above, however they should have been because they were changing the underlying mechanic of the skill.

This thread however has nothing to do with your complaint regarding the Orca and mining barges skill, which merits no reimbursement whatsoever.


Yes, I agree with your first two paragraphs. The final paragraph though is incorrect, logically this example is identical to the example of mining barge previously being required to fly and orca, and now it is no longer required. Any difference is merely superficial.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#30 - 2013-02-12 17:23:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
A couple of people need to read again, the hypothetical scenario does not involve removing drone interfacing at all.
…and the actual scenario doesn't involve the removal of game mechanics, nor handing out advantages to people who haven't spent time on skilling for that advantage.

Quote:
Come on now Tippia, you cannot argue against this given that this follows the exact same logic as your previous arguments.
Of course I can argue against it since I use the exact same logic as my previous arguments. Your hypothetical example, on the other hand, does not. It very (un)subtly changes the scenario to be something completely different.

What you're doing here is presenting a case very similar to the learning skills — remove the mechanic, give it to everyone — with a mix of the division connection skill removal, both of which are dissimilar in every way to the Orca change. That's why the former yielded a SP reimbursement and why the same kind of removal of functionality would be cause for reimbursement of the DI skill, and why the Orca change does not warrant any such reimbursement.

Quote:
The final paragraph though is incorrect, logically this example is identical to the example of mining barge previously being required to fly and orca, and now it is no longer required. Any difference is merely superficial.
His final paragraph is 100% correct. The difference between the two cases — a skilled-for advantage is being mechanically removed from the game, and a skilled-for advantage is not being touched in any way — is not superficial. It is, in fact, the key component that makes Orca reimbursement nonsensical.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#31 - 2013-02-12 17:24:30 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
No it wouldn't. Try reading the example again. CCP would be giving drone base damage a 100% boost and removing the 100% boost from the skill.

In your hypothetical situation, the abilities that the skill affects have been changed and, instead, your competitive advantage gained from training a ~20 day skill is simply given to everyone. This is totally different than removing a prerequisite. Industrial Command Ships is the skill that allows you to fly an Orca, not Mining Barge.


Nope, training up mining barge gave you a competitive advantage as it enabled you to progress to fly an orca previously, now it does not. In the example drone interfacing gave you a competitive advantage as it increased your drone damage by 100% previously, and now it does not.

In both examples the ability to fly the orca, and the 100% extra damage to drones still remain.

Both scenarios are identical if you take away the superficial elements and think it through logically.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#32 - 2013-02-12 17:28:08 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Nope, training up mining barge gave you a competitive advantage as it enabled you to progress to fly an orca previously, now it does not.
Incorrect.

Training up mining barge gave you the competitive advantage of being able to skill for an Orca and for Exhumers and letting you fly barges at max bonuses. After the change, your advantage is exactly the same: you can still fly your Orca, you can still fly barges at max bonus, and you can still train Exhumers — all of it unlike those who did not train those skills. Nothing has been removed or lost.

In the example of drone interfacing, a mechanic has been removed and you have lost the competitive advantage you had over those who did not have the skill. The only identical component in the two scenarios is that some skills effects have changed. Everything else is different.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#33 - 2013-02-12 17:28:09 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Nope, training up mining barge gave you a competitive advantage as it enabled you to progress to fly an orca previously, now it does not.

But no aspect of Mining Barge or Industrial Command Ships is being removed, so the situation is completely different. You can still fly mining barges and you can still fly the Orca. No capabilities have been removed. In your hypothetical situation, someone with Drone Interfacing to IV suddenly got a 20% bonus, which removed any benefit gained by training the skill to V.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#34 - 2013-02-12 17:28:32 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
A couple of people need to read again, the hypothetical scenario does not involve removing drone interfacing at all.
…and the actual scenario doesn't involve the removal of game mechanics, nor handing out advantages to people who haven't spent time on skilling for that advantage.

Quote:
Come on now Tippia, you cannot argue against this given that this follows the exact same logic as your previous arguments.
Of course I can argue against it since I use the exact same logic as my previous arguments. Your hypothetical example, on the other hand, does not. It very (un)subtly changes the scenario to be something completely different.

What you're doing here is presenting a case very similar to the learning skills — remove the mechanic, give it to everyone — with a mix of the division connection skill removal, both of which are dissimilar in every way to the Orca change. That's why the former yielded a SP reimbursement and why the same kind of removal of functionality would be cause for reimbursement of the DI skill, and why the Orca change does not warrant any such reimbursement.

Quote:
The final paragraph though is incorrect, logically this example is identical to the example of mining barge previously being required to fly and orca, and now it is no longer required. Any difference is merely superficial.
His final paragraph is 100% correct. The difference between the two cases — a skilled-for advantage is being mechanically removed from the game, and a skilled-for advantage is not being touched in any way — is not superficial. It is, in fact, the key component that makes Orca reimbursement nonsensical.


You are being pedantic with this argument over the use of the word mechanic, but if you look at the fundamental logic then both scenarios are exactly the same.

If you want to use the word mechanics, then before the mechanic of the mining barge skill was to allow you to progress to fly an orca. The mechanic of the drone interfacing skill is to give your drones 100% extra damage. Both those mechanics were programmed into the game and it cannot be argued that one somehow was not a mechanic of the game before. Any difference is merely superficial.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#35 - 2013-02-12 17:31:09 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
the mechanic of the mining barge skill was to allow you to progress to fly an orca.

No, it allows you to fly mining barges, which is a capability that has not changed. Industrial Command Ships allows you to fly an Orca.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#36 - 2013-02-12 17:33:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Tippia wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Nope, training up mining barge gave you a competitive advantage as it enabled you to progress to fly an orca previously, now it does not.
Incorrect.

Training up mining barge gave you the competitive advantage of being able to skill for an Orca and for Exhumers and letting you fly barges at max bonuses. After the change, your advantage is exactly the same: you can still fly your Orca, you can still fly barges at max bonus, and you can still train Exhumers — all of it unlike those who did not train those skills. Nothing has been removed or lost.


I can't argue with you as you are not making logical sense. You are arguing my point and then the same time denying it in the same post. As you say above the mining barge skill gave you the advantage of being able to skill for an orca, and now the skill no longer does that, therefore the mechanic of the skill has been changed.

If you are going to argue that mining barge reimbursement is incorrect, which is an opinion that I respect although also disagree with, then you also have to argue that in the scenario I gave above that SP should also not be refunded. At the moment you have trapped yourself in an illogical argument, do you not see this?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#37 - 2013-02-12 17:34:38 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
You are being pedantic with this argument over the use of the word mechanic, but if you look at the fundamental logic then both scenarios are exactly the same.
…except in every single way. I'm not being pedantic — I'm being accurate. Your decision to skip over the important bits only manages to make you inaccurate in your description of what's actually happening.

Quote:
If you want to use the word mechanics, then before the mechanic of the mining barge skill was to allow you to progress to fly an orca. The mechanic of the drone interfacing skill is to give your drones 100% extra damage. Both those mechanics were programmed into the game and it cannot be argued that one somehow was not a mechanic of the game before. Any difference is merely superficial.
Still incorrect. The advantage you've skilled for being handed out to all and sundry is not superficial — it's critical. You can choose to ignore that part as much as you like. The fact remains: absolutely nothing is being lost in the Orca change, which is why there is absolutely nothing to reimburse. In your hypothetical example (and in all historical examples) something was lost. Ignoring this fact only ever makes you incorrect and the entire basis for your argument ignorant.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#38 - 2013-02-12 17:36:58 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
At the moment you have trapped yourself in an illogical argument, do you not see this?
We see you think that is the case. It's actually not. Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#39 - 2013-02-12 17:38:34 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
You are being pedantic with this argument over the use of the word mechanic, but if you look at the fundamental logic then both scenarios are exactly the same.
…except in every single way. I'm not being pedantic — I'm being accurate. Your decision to skip over the important bits only manages to make you inaccurate in your description of what's actually happening.

Quote:
If you want to use the word mechanics, then before the mechanic of the mining barge skill was to allow you to progress to fly an orca. The mechanic of the drone interfacing skill is to give your drones 100% extra damage. Both those mechanics were programmed into the game and it cannot be argued that one somehow was not a mechanic of the game before. Any difference is merely superficial.
Still incorrect. The advantage you've skilled for being handed out to all and sundry is not superficial — it's critical. You can choose to ignore that part as much as you like. The fact remains: absolutely nothing is being lost in the Orca change, which is why there is absolutely nothing to reimburse. In your hypothetical example (and in all historical examples) something was lost. Ignoring this fact only ever makes you incorrect and the entire basis for your argument ignorant.


You have misunderstood the original question I posed. In both examples nothing has been lost.

In the drone example, the 100% damage bonus was removed from the skill, and added to all drones as standard. Nothing has been lost and the skill is still useful due to its mining bonus.

In the Mining Barge example the ability to allow you to train for an orca was removed from the skill, and added to the game as standard. Nothing has been lost, and the skill is still useful due to its mining bonus.

See the similarity there? You cannot argue one is right and at the same time the other is wrong.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#40 - 2013-02-12 17:40:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
I can't argue with you as you are not making logical sense.
What part of reality does not make sense to you?

Are you saying that pilots do not retain every bit of advantage they already have in the change-over?
Are you saying that giving everyone the same bonuses, regardless of skills, is not the removal of an advantage?
Are you saying that there is a historical case where skills have been reimbursed without a removal of some advantage tied to those skills?

Your DI example is fundamentally different from what's happening to the Orca — losing an advantage is different from not losing one. Or are you saying that losing an advantage is the same as keeping it?

Quote:
You are arguing my point and then the same time denying it in the same post.
Not really, no. Maybe you don't understand the point you're making? On the one hand, I'm saying that losing a skilled-for advantage is grounds for SP reimbursement; on the other hand, I'm saying that not losing any such advantage is not grounds for reimbursement. Your point is that not losing an advantage should be grounds for reimbursement.

Quote:
As you say above the mining barge skill gave you the advantage of being able to skill for an orca
No. That is not what I said. Try again.

Quote:
You have misunderstood the original question I posed. In both examples nothing has been lost.
Incorrect.

Learning skill change — skilled-for advantage was lost, SP reimbursed.
Division connection skill change — skilled-for advantage was lost, SP reimbursed.
Ethnic Relations skill change — skilled-for advantage was lost, reimbursed by a different skilled-for advantage
Hypothetical DI skill change — skilled-for advantage would be lost, SP reimbursement is a conceivable option.

Orca prereq change — no advantage is lost. What on earth is there to reimburse?