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BC rebalance - Idea's for Brutix Bonuses
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#21 - 2013-02-12 19:59:44 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Had armor tank not been useless...Lol


I'm sorry, I don't know what you're getting at here. Complete sentences might be useful in getting your point across.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Mire Stoude
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-02-12 20:44:36 UTC
The brutix's armor rep bonus should be an agility bonus. Brutix needs to get onto it's target and start applying DPS asap. More agility/less mass would allow that.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#23 - 2013-02-12 20:50:13 UTC
Mire Stoude wrote:
The brutix's armor rep bonus should be an agility bonus. Brutix needs to get onto it's target and start applying DPS asap. More agility/less mass would allow that.


I hear the Brutix is pretty mobile on the test server. But don't mind me...

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#24 - 2013-02-12 22:15:01 UTC
The Brutix is the fastest combat BC after the Cyclone. They both share the lightest mass of the BC crowd. These suggestions for dual hybrid bonuses or extra speed would pit the Brutix against the Talos.

Brutix:
40k EHP
1000-1200 DPS
Projection out to point range
1250 m/s - 1650 m/s

Talos:
30k EHP
1200-1400 DPS
Considerable damage projection
>1650 m/s

The Brutix is fine as is. It brings variety. It's a logical progression. The Myrmidon in my eyes is the red headed step child. It has never fit in or made sense to me. I did not try out the Prophecy or Myrm on the test server as they are not my cup of tea. (Brutix and Harb are nice and fine. Cyclone is fast!) A corpmate did though and found it's easier to fit a triple rep setup on the prophecy now then the Myrm. Why aren't we changing the Myrm again?
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#25 - 2013-02-12 23:01:29 UTC
Denuo Secus wrote:
I also think it's not the Brutix which needs a different bonus. Brutix is a pure brawling BC. It needs a tanking bonus. How else should it do a lot of damage while maintaining some tank at the same time? It also fits well into the Gallente tanky blaster ship line: Incursus -> Brutix -> Hyperion. Yes, no cruiser. Because the Thorax follows the speed and tracking pattern of the Talos and the future Mega. So if you want a BC with two damage bonuses fly the Talos, not the Brutix.

The Myrm on the other hand is more flexible and would be nice with another bonus instead of tanking imho. All Gallente drone boats (Tristan, Algos, Vexor, Dominix) have a turret and a drone bonus. I for one like this because it makes Gallente drone boats flexible and offers huge damage - very Gallente I think. Only the Myrm doesn't follow this pattern.


eh ?
nowai, terrible idea.

I can't see what is more flexible about that, when the current myrm is commonly seen with projectiles.
Denuo Secus
#26 - 2013-02-12 23:27:26 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Denuo Secus wrote:
I also think it's not the Brutix which needs a different bonus. Brutix is a pure brawling BC. It needs a tanking bonus. How else should it do a lot of damage while maintaining some tank at the same time? It also fits well into the Gallente tanky blaster ship line: Incursus -> Brutix -> Hyperion. Yes, no cruiser. Because the Thorax follows the speed and tracking pattern of the Talos and the future Mega. So if you want a BC with two damage bonuses fly the Talos, not the Brutix.

The Myrm on the other hand is more flexible and would be nice with another bonus instead of tanking imho. All Gallente drone boats (Tristan, Algos, Vexor, Dominix) have a turret and a drone bonus. I for one like this because it makes Gallente drone boats flexible and offers huge damage - very Gallente I think. Only the Myrm doesn't follow this pattern.


eh ?
nowai, terrible idea.

I can't see what is more flexible about that, when the current myrm is commonly seen with projectiles.


Projectiles on Gallente ships are a shame imho. With hybrid + drone bonus (like all other Gallente drone ships) the Myrm can do alot of different things - some even without refitting:

- full 5 slot armor tank without gimping the damage output too much, because it comes 50/50 from drones and turrets...
- ...which is very helpful when drones are destroyed.
- ...to support damage when blasters are not able to apply their damage (kited, TDed, ECM, neuted...)
- max gank shield buffer with drone and hybrid damage mods - no other BC can do this kind of damage
- full drone damage + moderate armor tank + drone utility in meds + ...
- ... blaster as close range defence when using sentries
- ... rails to augment sentry damage even more for nice damage projection
- ... neuts instead of turrets for all that nice stuff which can be done with neuts ^^
- ...

I don't know..but this looks like flexibility to me. Without hybrid damage bonus the Myrm is more or less a copy of the new Prophecy.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#27 - 2013-02-13 03:35:34 UTC
But everything you list is already possible, you just want to remove the possibility of active armor tank. That's less flexibility.

.
Fireflyb1
Walden 2.0
#28 - 2013-02-13 04:51:49 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Screw rep, it doesn't need and shouldn't have more tank, give it a 10% mwd speed bonus vaga style, and viola, blasterboat. Running glass ganker makes you more manly.


Psh, arguing on forums about manliness makes you more manly!
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#29 - 2013-02-13 06:29:35 UTC
Denuo Secus wrote:


Projectiles on Gallente ships are a shame imho. With hybrid + drone bonus (like all other Gallente drone ships) the Myrm can do alot of different things - some even without refitting:

- full 5 slot armor tank without gimping the damage output too much, because it comes 50/50 from drones and turrets...
- ...which is very helpful when drones are destroyed.
- ...to support damage when blasters are not able to apply their damage (kited, TDed, ECM, neuted...)
- max gank shield buffer with drone and hybrid damage mods - no other BC can do this kind of damage
- full drone damage + moderate armor tank + drone utility in meds + ...
- ... blaster as close range defence when using sentries
- ... rails to augment sentry damage even more for nice damage projection
- ... neuts instead of turrets for all that nice stuff which can be done with neuts ^^
- ...

I don't know..but this looks like flexibility to me. Without hybrid damage bonus the Myrm is more or less a copy of the new Prophecy.


You lost me with this post. Its a mix of things the myrm already does, or things that the bonus would not be helpful for (neuts), or just poorly thought out (blasters + sentries), or for which a BC was introduced with the specific task of being (talos is max gank bc for gallente).
Denuo Secus
#30 - 2013-02-13 08:59:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Denuo Secus
Roime wrote:
But everything you list is already possible, you just want to remove the possibility of active armor tank. That's less flexibility.


Active armor tanking wouldn't be less possible as on a Tristan, Algos, Vexor or Dominix. Ofc one can argue about how viable such a tank would be. I for one fought against quite capable active Vexors for instance. But granted, the triple rep - dual cap injected Myrm wouldn't be possible that strong without active tank bonus.

Tauranon wrote:
Denuo Secus wrote:


Projectiles on Gallente ships are a shame imho. With hybrid + drone bonus (like all other Gallente drone ships) the Myrm can do alot of different things - some even without refitting:

- full 5 slot armor tank without gimping the damage output too much, because it comes 50/50 from drones and turrets...
- ...which is very helpful when drones are destroyed.
- ...to support damage when blasters are not able to apply their damage (kited, TDed, ECM, neuted...)
- max gank shield buffer with drone and hybrid damage mods - no other BC can do this kind of damage
- full drone damage + moderate armor tank + drone utility in meds + ...
- ... blaster as close range defence when using sentries
- ... rails to augment sentry damage even more for nice damage projection
- ... neuts instead of turrets for all that nice stuff which can be done with neuts ^^
- ...

I don't know..but this looks like flexibility to me. Without hybrid damage bonus the Myrm is more or less a copy of the new Prophecy.


You lost me with this post. Its a mix of things the myrm already does, or things that the bonus would not be helpful for (neuts), or just poorly thought out (blasters + sentries), or for which a BC was introduced with the specific task of being (talos is max gank bc for gallente).




The current Myrm can do all this already ofc. I just think it would benefit even more from a turret bonus. See the new Vexor for instance. It's a fantastic brawler with a lot of options.

After all it's a matter of taste. I always liked the damage potential and the flexibility made possible by two weapon systems with bonus each. It works very well on a Vexor or Dominix already. If one system does not work because of the current situation (blasters and drones are situational imo) - you still have another system. I think this is Gallente style.
Shpenat
Ironman Inc.
#31 - 2013-02-13 10:55:37 UTC
Don't forget that Both brutix and myrmidon are combat battlecruisers, not attack ones. It means less mobility, more tank, less dps. Hence any agility or speed bonus is out of class for brutix. Same goes for double damage bonus to the same weapon system or tracking bonus. The only exception to this so far is rupture and cane (damage + rate of fire bonus).

So for brutix the second bonus has to be either tanking or utility bonus. I personally vote for tanking.
Hakaimono
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2013-02-13 16:45:13 UTC
As a brawler, wouldn't it benefit more from a resist bonus instead of rep?
Hulasikaly Wada
DO.IT
Triumvirate.
#33 - 2013-02-13 17:04:06 UTC
Hakaimono wrote:
As a brawler, wouldn't it benefit more from a resist bonus instead of rep?


Its no a Gallente bonus the % restist , anyhow i will agree on moving the % of armor hp from amar to Gallente, still no OP ( making Amarr more logistic friendly and having good Gallente brawlers ). Minmatar are already ok with the % bonus on shield reps because of ASB stuffs and racial t2 resists where armor tanks is more a buffer thing

Hula
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2013-02-13 18:09:51 UTC
Looks like things are set to stay as they are anyway and although I can see the Brutix with an alternate tank bonus it is fine as it is.

Shield Myrm with Hybrid damage bonus would push over 1200dps it already has the same turret dps as the vexor, such a change is not necessary. The tank bonus works fine single, dual or triple rep.

I only wish those bonuses were 10% to give them a real edge over the resistance bonused ships. Myrm and prophecy have different advantages over each other though so balance ships not bonuses I guess.
Gal'o Sengen
Doomheim
#35 - 2013-02-14 05:45:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Gal'o Sengen
It'd take either a resist bonus or a web bonus to get me into a Brutix honestly. A Brutix with a Web bonus would be a floating gankstation and a perfect compliment to the slow, tanky Myrmidon.

The issue with a web bonus is that it overlaps with the Serpentis ships or the Minmatar Recons. Why bother with a Vigilant if a Brutix does the same thing? Perhaps rather than just a Strength bonus, or just a range Bonus, a combination of the two? 5% velocity factor and 5% range per level? Not as strong as Serpentis webs, not as long as Minmatar Webs, but unqiue in its own way.

That also heavily mitigates the main problem with Blasters on a Battlecruiser, the inability to dictatate range in any significant capacity.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#36 - 2013-02-14 12:26:16 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I am a fan of keeping the rep bonus with boosted reps.

-Liang


Going to strongly agree with Liang on this one. What's needed is an actual review of armor reppers beyond the introduction of a silly new module and a modest decrease in fitting requirements. The significant imbalance between dead space armor reppers and shield boosters is still present and from the looks of it, Fozzie has no intention of addressing this problem...

Reppers themselves need more significant changes, most specifically in regards to cap efficiency... If shield boosting is to produce significantly more hp/s, then armor reppers should be SIGNIFICANTLY more cap efficient. Currently Cap efficiency AND hp/s is in the favor of shield boosters once you start climbing the dead space tree, this is simply unacceptable and requires significant changes.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#37 - 2013-02-14 12:28:37 UTC
Gal'o Sengen wrote:
It'd take either a resist bonus or a web bonus to get me into a Brutix honestly. A Brutix with a Web bonus would be a floating gankstation and a perfect compliment to the slow, tanky Myrmidon.

The issue with a web bonus is that it overlaps with the Serpentis ships or the Minmatar Recons. Why bother with a Vigilant if a Brutix does the same thing? Perhaps rather than just a Strength bonus, or just a range Bonus, a combination of the two? 5% velocity factor and 5% range per level? Not as strong as Serpentis webs, not as long as Minmatar Webs, but unqiue in its own way.

That also heavily mitigates the main problem with Blasters on a Battlecruiser, the inability to dictatate range in any significant capacity.


A 5% to strength and range of Webs would be exceedingly over powered... We really don't need link Brutix's webbing at 75% to 20km... It would be such a broken ship....
Gal'o Sengen
Doomheim
#38 - 2013-02-14 12:48:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Gal'o Sengen
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:


A 5% to strength and range of Webs would be exceedingly over powered... We really don't need link Brutix's webbing at 75% to 20km... It would be such a broken ship....


Keep in mind, that's using a faction web, a module which costs 25% more than the Hull itself, on a ship that cannot even apply damage out that far.

The numbers aren't anything more than an example though, i was just giving a general idea of what I'd like to see.

(And quite frankly, a Blaster ship being something that's considered overpowered sounds rather appealingP)
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#39 - 2013-02-14 13:36:28 UTC
Gal'o Sengen wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:


A 5% to strength and range of Webs would be exceedingly over powered... We really don't need link Brutix's webbing at 75% to 20km... It would be such a broken ship....


Keep in mind, that's using a faction web, a module which costs 25% more than the Hull itself, on a ship that cannot even apply damage out that far.


No, it's using a dirt-cheap unbonused gang link.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#40 - 2013-02-14 13:46:48 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Gal'o Sengen wrote:
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:


A 5% to strength and range of Webs would be exceedingly over powered... We really don't need link Brutix's webbing at 75% to 20km... It would be such a broken ship....


Keep in mind, that's using a faction web, a module which costs 25% more than the Hull itself, on a ship that cannot even apply damage out that far.


No, it's using a dirt-cheap unbonused gang link.


correct, heated t2 web with unbonussed gang link easily puts you close to 20km.
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