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[Discussion] Economic Security Status
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Claire Coffee
Coffee Inc
#21 - 2013-02-13 17:22:56 UTC
I can imagine the amount of possible violence over the game. Scammers don't go to Fan Fests either, I guess Cool

[b]DRINK COFFEE Do stupid things Faster with More Energy[/b]
Alex Grison
Grison Universal
#22 - 2013-02-13 18:00:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Alex Grison
Oswaldos wrote:
Fairly young to the eve trade market and the bond market that goes with it but it seems to me that the best way to add some sort of accountability is to do a little meta gaming and legitimize a persons identity in out of game ways like logging IP/MAC address. Its certainly far from fool proof but its better then nothing. A third party service also has merit but with the ease to recycling toons i assume their would be some prerequisites SP wise before one was even considered reputable for an IPO.

My 2 cents


Lets just stop right here.

1) IP addresses are easily changed and covered up.

2) There are 2 reasons you might have to want to know someone's IRL identity, in the sense you have described
-You are planning to try to hunt them down to harrass / harm them / threaten them ( which would get you immediately removed from the eve universe and subjected to criminal charges )

-You are planning to try to sue them if they scam you. Also note that such a case would be immediately thrown out of court. As you hold no interest in the value, time, currency or items in your account.
You also do not own any of the currency, items/etc in your account.

Really, in what ways will knowing who someone is IRL help anyone?

yes
Oswaldos
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-02-13 20:06:17 UTC
Alex Grison wrote:
Oswaldos wrote:
Fairly young to the eve trade market and the bond market that goes with it but it seems to me that the best way to add some sort of accountability is to do a little meta gaming and legitimize a persons identity in out of game ways like logging IP/MAC address. Its certainly far from fool proof but its better then nothing. A third party service also has merit but with the ease to recycling toons i assume their would be some prerequisites SP wise before one was even considered reputable for an IPO.

My 2 cents


Lets just stop right here.

1) IP addresses are easily changed and covered up.

2) There are 2 reasons you might have to want to know someone's IRL identity, in the sense you have described
-You are planning to try to hunt them down to harrass / harm them / threaten them ( which would get you immediately removed from the eve universe and subjected to criminal charges )

-You are planning to try to sue them if they scam you. Also note that such a case would be immediately thrown out of court. As you hold no interest in the value, time, currency or items in your account.
You also do not own any of the currency, items/etc in your account.

Really, in what ways will knowing who someone is IRL help anyone?



It would be harder to spoof a MAC address or IP address then say delete an eve toon and the purpose of having someones IP/ MAC address would be to cross reference it against a list of known bad eggs so to limit your chances of being hosed. As for harassing/threatening outside of game that's rather pointless. Although their would be benefits to knowing about a persons in game assets so you could make appropriate retributions in game on someone who scammed you Evil
Alex Grison
Grison Universal
#24 - 2013-02-13 20:18:37 UTC
Oswaldos wrote:
Alex Grison wrote:
Oswaldos wrote:
Fairly young to the eve trade market and the bond market that goes with it but it seems to me that the best way to add some sort of accountability is to do a little meta gaming and legitimize a persons identity in out of game ways like logging IP/MAC address. Its certainly far from fool proof but its better then nothing. A third party service also has merit but with the ease to recycling toons i assume their would be some prerequisites SP wise before one was even considered reputable for an IPO.

My 2 cents


Lets just stop right here.

1) IP addresses are easily changed and covered up.

2) There are 2 reasons you might have to want to know someone's IRL identity, in the sense you have described
-You are planning to try to hunt them down to harrass / harm them / threaten them ( which would get you immediately removed from the eve universe and subjected to criminal charges )

-You are planning to try to sue them if they scam you. Also note that such a case would be immediately thrown out of court. As you hold no interest in the value, time, currency or items in your account.
You also do not own any of the currency, items/etc in your account.

Really, in what ways will knowing who someone is IRL help anyone?



It would be harder to spoof a MAC address or IP address then say delete an eve toon and the purpose of having someones IP/ MAC address would be to cross reference it against a list of known bad eggs so to limit your chances of being hosed. As for harassing/threatening outside of game that's rather pointless. Although their would be benefits to knowing about a persons in game assets so you could make appropriate retributions in game on someone who scammed you Evil


Well good luck getting everyone to divulge this info for the sake of "security"

yes
Syds Sinclair
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-02-13 23:03:27 UTC
..Candy I have to admit that what you have hinted at intrigues me.

Alex, Claire, I have to admit I am disappointed that both of you could not add anything of value to the discussion. I expected you two to have ideas that you would want to express.

I'm thinking about making a thread dedicated to teaching new/inexperienced traders. And not theory, but practice. Of the "give a man a fish" variety.

I think of it as a "do this, buy here, sell there, update orders x amount of times" course.

It's the only way I can thi I to add value to MD.

♠ Sinclair Consulting ♠
Alex Grison
Grison Universal
#26 - 2013-02-13 23:09:40 UTC
There is no real way to add value than to offer collaterol for any investments.


Other than that, nothing in eve is enforceable.

MD is also only like 30 or 40 regular people. out of everyone in eve. So CCP Doesn't have a lot of incentive to spend time on MD specific things

Remember that 99% of eve never does any player investment and would instantly call it out as a scam, regardless of collateral.

yes
Syds Sinclair
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-02-13 23:54:17 UTC
..Alex, I agree that there are 30-40 active MD posters. But there are a ton of lurker a that try to glean some useful information from these forums.

I've been trying to think of a way to implement the same consequences that a real person would face should he commit fraud. But even in real life there is little enforcement. A person can rack up hundreds of thousands of debt and declare bankruptcy. That person might even get the chance to acquire more debt after a few years.

♠ Sinclair Consulting ♠
Claire Coffee
Coffee Inc
#28 - 2013-02-14 01:14:58 UTC
Syds Sinclair wrote:
But even in real life there is little enforcement. A person can rack up hundreds of thousands of debt and declare bankruptcy. That person might even get the chance to acquire more debt after a few years.


Oh it really depends on country of residence. In some countries people are thrown into snake pits Twisted

[b]DRINK COFFEE Do stupid things Faster with More Energy[/b]
Kazuma Gaterau
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-02-14 01:29:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Kazuma Gaterau
Of the initial proposal of this thread, I do agree with Alex that this won't really actually create any sort of enforcement as people have the ability to adapt to new changes and will find new ways to con. I do agree on the principal ideals though that this acts, and behaves, like a Credit Bureau.

I feel that this should just remain a database for people to look at borrowing track records and not really have any positives or negatives either way. Create a Credit Score database online that shows successful and failed transactions for characters.

I'm sure there will be that one guy that gets his credit sore up really great just so he can default and take the money and run, but let's be real. In the EVE Universe you can do that whenever you want and are at the same risk. Although this provides no actual additional security, it does provide some sort of background check on previous transactions and agreements. I feel this would benefit a few people. Let's say someone in game asks to borrow 500m and promises to pay it back ,you look on the database that other people report in of transactions that are defaulted on. This HAS to be verified with API keys though as anyone can claim anyone failed to uphold their end of the bargain.

tl;dr

Agree on a credit bureau database, but not on perks/negativity actually within game. Just a way to quickly analyze the probability of a scam.
Callduron
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#30 - 2013-02-14 02:00:03 UTC
Oswaldos wrote:
Fairly young to the eve trade market and the bond market that goes with it but it seems to me that the best way to add some sort of accountability is to do a little meta gaming and legitimize a persons identity in out of game ways like logging IP/MAC address. Its certainly far from fool proof but its better then nothing. A third party service also has merit but with the ease to recycling toons i assume their would be some prerequisites SP wise before one was even considered reputable for an IPO.

My 2 cents


If I were scamming I'd be prepared to walk down the road and post from the cafe using their wifi and their IP address. Or simply turn my router off and on.

Also very slippery slope. Effectively you're asking CCP to take real life sanctions against people who conduct themselves in-game a certain way. What's more it's a way endorsed and supported by the game company. If you took it further, realising that IP bans don't work so using credit card bans and/or real life address bans you're removing players from Eve for doing something they're allowed to do.

You could set up a third party verification site that audits by IP but then who would regulate you? Twisted

I write http://stabbedup.blogspot.co.uk/

I post on reddit as /u/callduron.
Callduron
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#31 - 2013-02-14 02:03:14 UTC
Claire Coffee wrote:
I can imagine the amount of possible violence over the game. Scammers don't go to Fan Fests either, I guess Cool


I've met both scammers and corp thieves at Eve London which is a mini-Fanfest. It's a game, punching someone who scammed you is like punching someone for beating you at chess.

I write http://stabbedup.blogspot.co.uk/

I post on reddit as /u/callduron.
Claire Coffee
Coffee Inc
#32 - 2013-02-14 02:34:26 UTC
Callduron wrote:

I've met both scammers and corp thieves at Eve London which is a mini-Fanfest. It's a game, punching someone who scammed you is like punching someone for beating you at chess.


Try beating someone at chess in high-security prison. Twisted
There are different people and news about kids shooting other kids over the game aren't new either. While EVE tends to have a mature and somewhat responsible player base, you never know and you can't risk it.

[b]DRINK COFFEE Do stupid things Faster with More Energy[/b]
Syds Sinclair
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2013-02-14 02:50:32 UTC
..That is a very good point Claire. I've seen a lot of that first hand.

♠ Sinclair Consulting ♠
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
#34 - 2013-02-15 04:54:15 UTC
Have just now put an interesting proposal in to some 3rd parties, for a costing exercise.

The TL:DR is a framework/plan for a Multi-person perpetuity, offering 100% secured Bonds/profit share arrangements. The framework, will be the Brand players can use to gain funds. it will have a logo, and many funny pictures (like positive posters advertising players funding cultural ties MD memes to it also.

With the exception of the term Circlejerk & MD elite, much of what it is in this post (heaven forbid i bump that thread its already on page 2 where it belongs.) so ill say it here.

What Vera mentions is the sociology, I hope the brand will incorporate.

Looking forward to being flamed on this one.

iCandy  - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next shit could spell disaster!
Syds Sinclair
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-02-15 05:05:21 UTC
..I really liked that post you linked. They definitely have a brand that investors/bond originators have a vested interest in keeping a good name with. If you could somehow make MD a brand like that I think the sky is the limit.

Looking forward to it Candy.

♠ Sinclair Consulting ♠
Alex Grison
Grison Universal
#36 - 2013-02-15 05:25:59 UTC
Claire Coffee wrote:
Callduron wrote:

I've met both scammers and corp thieves at Eve London which is a mini-Fanfest. It's a game, punching someone who scammed you is like punching someone for beating you at chess.


Try beating someone at chess in high-security prison. Twisted
There are different people and news about kids shooting other kids over the game aren't new either. While EVE tends to have a mature and somewhat responsible player base, you never know and you can't risk it.


I deduct one economic security status point from you.

yes
Claire Coffee
Coffee Inc
#37 - 2013-02-15 06:58:50 UTC
Alex Grison wrote:

I deduct one economic security status point from you.


I wasn't refering to you in that post Alex. You don't really qualify for a kid status andI can't call you mature and responsible either.
I guess playing chess is your only option! P

[b]DRINK COFFEE Do stupid things Faster with More Energy[/b]
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#38 - 2013-02-15 13:43:44 UTC
Oswaldos wrote:
It would be harder to spoof a MAC address or IP address then say delete an eve toon and the purpose of having someones IP/ MAC address would be to cross reference it against a list of known bad eggs so to limit your chances of being hosed. As for harassing/threatening outside of game that's rather pointless. Although their would be benefits to knowing about a persons in game assets so you could make appropriate retributions in game on someone who scammed you Evil


If you want I can give you my MAC and IP address.

The IP address changes every day as I am on a ADSL that gets addresses through DHCP.

About the MAC address, my network card comes with a nice edit box where I can type the MAC address to assign it... Lol

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#39 - 2013-02-15 14:00:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Kara Books
Lets deal with some IT.

First of all, tracking some one correctly requires a BIOS Serial number.
Removing a BIOS serial number turns the BIOS into a SOCOM BIOS, in turn leading to an insta added to watch list problem as soon as an IP address is remotely assigned.

Now that we got that out of the way, you all now know, IP tracking is so 1988, 2013 baby, live in it.

(edit V part)
So, if were in 2013, we thus, have to use an OLD MAC
Alex Grison
Grison Universal
#40 - 2013-02-17 00:08:39 UTC
Claire Coffee wrote:
Alex Grison wrote:

I deduct one economic security status point from you.


I wasn't refering to you in that post Alex. You don't really qualify for a kid status andI can't call you mature and responsible either.
I guess playing chess is your only option! P


Oh please. I am very mature and responsible.

The last time they let me spend the night at 4-4 They didn't send anyone to check on me.
NOT EVEN ONCE.

yes
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