Market Discussions

..Just for the hell of it. And because Jerry proposed his view on helping MD in another thread.

MD and investments are a free and unregulated activity. As they should be, the sandbox and all that. Investing in Eve should not have the safety net of CCP to protect the investor.

But freedom of actions does not mean freedom from consequences.

Let me propose the Economic Security Status - ESS -. Along with this, the in game shares mechanic/interface would have to be redone. Which wouldn't be a bad thing, as the system is in rough shape.

Borrower A makes an IPO and raises 1b Isk, to be repaid in full plus interest in 30 days time (which is specified via the overhauled shares mechanic.).

If the IPO is fuffilled as stipulated, Borrower A gets +1.0 Economic Security Standing (or some non arbitrary number.)

If the IPO is defaulted as stipulated, Borrower A gets -1.0 Economic Security Standing (or some other non arbitrary number.)

Rewards:

Besides having the positive social aspects associated with a positive ESS, maybe this could also lower sales tax/brokers fees. I wouldn't want the reward to be so great as to force traders into making IPOs and raising money via legitimate ways, or alts, or otherwise gaming the system. But just enough to reward the successful and honest Borrower. I'd like to hear some thoughts on this and other rewards.

Punishments:

Breaking a contract should be considered a criminal act. As such, having a negative ESS will incur all of the punishments of having a negative Security Status that is currently in the game.

Furthermore, having a negative ESS will make you pay a separate tax as a % in direct correlation to your ESS in addition to the station tax and brokers fee when making market purchases. This tax would NOT go to the investors, but just be an ISK sink.

Additionally, to prevent the defaulter from using an alt or a friend to bypass this punishment by using contracts to get goods, a % of the value of the contract in direct correlation to your ESS will be imposed as a fee.

Fixing your ESS:

Fixing your ESS wouldn't be a matter of grinding belt rats.The only way to fix your ESS is by paying your investors back in full.

The numbers for ESS hits, % of tax fees from negative ESS, and positive rewards for positive ESS would all have to be worked over.

The practice of using throw away alts would still be in effect. The potential scammer and potential investor would have to weigh the economics of soiling a pilot. Like they currently do, but with ESS there is the addition of tangible consequences.

The ESS system would not prevent scams, would not protect investors, but would impose a bit of consequences for your decisions and actions.

I hope Jerry will pledge 20b.

I think it's a little bit too complicated. And when it's a little bit too complicated it's more prone to slipping and exploiting.

I would personally see it as a 3rd party thingie.
Some sort of software that would keep the database of Good or Bad bonds via API. Maybe with an addition to menu like Lend Money (where you can set terms) and not just give money. If person fails to give money back as per terms, it opens a negotiation where both parties either agree or not (things happens, bond rollover etc). In case of default, a person goes to database with info of the bond along and everyone can check it.

You don't want total control over bonds implemented in EVE. It will defy the risk, will lower interest rates and probably will terminate the social aspect of it e.g. being reputable. (since that ESS will be grinded badly and people will get scammed)

..Thanks for the replies.

Claire- Third party initiatives have been done with little success. Known scammer lists, ganker lists, bad poster lists, etc. They all face the same issue: little to no tangible consequences.

Grison- The ESS' focus would be on the punishments of having a negative ESS, and not the benefits of a positive ESS. I think maybe a token % relief from station tax and broker's fees might be in order, but nothing game breaking as to require traders to gain a positive ESS.

The real enforcement behind it would be the real consequences of having a negative ESS. All the hassles of havin a negative Security Status as well as leans on all of your market transactions and contracts.

All the negative issues that come wih a false sense of security are already in MD, in spades. Forum rep, regular posting, and successful bonds/IPOs. The problems you have layed out are already in effect. And as with any investment, one should never invest more then they are willing to lose, audits, API, ESS be damned.

And finally, I'm not trying to champion this feature to be implemented into Eve. I would like to hear other people's ideas on how to enforce some consequences on scammers, but at the same time not alienate the scammers. They do provide great content, and Eve's history would be a lit less interesting without them.

Well, I was saying about API-enabled loans with "credit history"
Enforcing anything in the game is up to player, I believe that's CCP's ideology. Gaining trust, having revenge etc.
So eventually keeping records falls into player's hands too.

..Claire. Giving trust and getting revenge will still, and always be, in the player hands. My proposed ESS (or any other idea, I'd like to hear some) would simple turn a risk free endeavor (scammer) into an endeavor with some consequences.

Due diligence would still be firmly be placed in the players hands.

..Alex. Besides the pain and inconvience of flying a trade window pilot with you wherever you go, the ESS could also attach a lean to that trade window. Just like the contract stipulation, by way of a % of the value of assets being traded.

And throw away alts are left almost perfectly untouched. They can still grind rep for a few months and be able to get a 1-5b IPO funded. Although, with more reputable IPO originators with a vested interest in their pilot, small rep small time small reward high risk offers from throw away alts might be passed over.

Jut thinking about this, the age and sp of a pilot, and thus the usefulness of said pilot, will be subject to said pilots ESS. Imagine the Bad Bobby scam. He would not have been able to do that heist with a 4 month old pilot. So in order for him to run off with 400b, Bobby would have earned himself a -10.0 ESS. And the penalties of -10.0 ESS for a nulsec pilot would be quite a burden.

On this line of thinking, my pilot Syds Sinclair, is a high sec industrialist. I could suicide gank and loot an Iterion V and make a tidy profit. But I won't. For many reasons, one being that having a negative sec status would be a pain in my ass and complicate a lot of my operations.

The proposed ESS wouldn't stop scammer. It shouldn't stop scammers. I think scamming in Eve is great and should continue until the servers close. If it was impossible to scam, then me never falling for a scam would not be an achievement.

However, scamming is probably the only risk free activity in Eve. The only activity that is extremely profitable with no risk or consequence.

There is a basis for trust: Collateral.

Collateral solves everyone's problems.

Advanced scammers and creative people can do wonders even when collateral is used.
I am not going to tell more, as there are many less than innocent ears busy picking up all sorts of possible "suggestions".

Edit: and that's why 3rd party services exist.

If anyone believes EvE is dark, harsh, obscure and full of pitfalls, then they are just at the beginning. It's much more involved and even more obscure than that.

When we see some "how to fleece roleplay investors" threads, remember that anything that goes "public" (applies both to RL finance and much more) it's because it's now old, trite, known. The true escalation is an ongoing race, the cutting edge of scamming is well ahead of that.

I've been following this thread, I have an idea that will give the community some confidence back, its going to take some time, the bottleneck for me ATM is a trustworthy 3rd party, and how they fit into it.

Whether the negatives like to admit it or not, there are multiple legit MD Fund managers, even innovators out there, logging in, paying interest & grinding away at trading/w/e there 'roleplay' is, (trying not to undock.)

A metaphoric Sample.

MD is much like my countries Child Custody laws, the Negatives(MD) believe all men are wife beaters, scumbags cheaters(Scammers) etc, and because this is the case, the law has been written & enforced to suit the Negatives (jerrys 20b,some posts in this thread, jerrys other thread, all the regular trolls etc etc). And the guy that "just wants to see his kids" (new fund manager), is immediately labeled, as a Scammer.

As it does happen, there really are scumbags that do that stuff, so the laws 'Scope' assumes this is the case, and the nice guy, gets shafted, even humiliated. Whether threads like these or Jerry's are helping or making it worse of course is a matter of opinion and we are all entitled to one.

Coming soon TM

The cutting edge of anything ( including scamming )

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