Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Be that as it may, should it really take three times as long to train a large T2 turret as it does to train a large T2 missile system? And does being forced to train T2 small, then T2 medium, in order to train T2 large really make that much sense?

With regard to ships, CCP certainly doesn't seem to think so. Interdictors won't require Interceptors 4. HACs won't require AF 4. Recon Ships won't require Covert Ops 4. Fleet Command Ships won't require Logistics 4. And while not strictly T2, capital ships won't require racial battleship 5.
What's wrong with doing the same for turrets?

Aren't the support skill for turrent all the same for the 3 type with missile support skill only supporting 1 weapon system? This could be a raeson for the unbalance...

I was going to put this in an edit, but you replied as I was writing it:

Also, I'm not sure what that even means, that crosstraining is speedy when you have the first chain of turret skills.
Using the same 1800 sp/hr character, training T2 rails after training T2 blasters takes just over 20 days.
Training T2 cruise after training T2 torps takes just over 29 days.
Not a significant difference when you consider ALL missiles to T2 takes 112 days, whereas training only hybrids, all to T2, takes 100 days.

Crosstraining would be:
I want T2 Blasters and T2 Pulse vs I want T2 Torps and T2 Blasters.

Going between Turret based weapon systems is quick. Crossing in from Missiles takes a long time (believe me, I've been there). Especially once you start looking at all the support skills.

From scratch, 79d 12h to large blaster specialization 1.
From there, roughly 61d, 12h to large pulse laser specialization 1.
The overlap between these two is a rank 1 skill and a rank 2 skill both trained to 5. Roughly 18 days.
141 days total for small blaster spec 4, medium blaster spec 4, large blaster spec 1, small pulse spec 4, medium pulse spec 4, and large pulse spec 5.
If we could somehow pull out spec 2-4 from the smalls and mediums, we'd get a reduction of about 16 days, for a training time of 125 days.

Small, medium, and large spec 1 for both blasters and pulse lasers in 125 days.
Compared to 112 days for every single missile launcher: rockets, light missiles, rapid light missiles, heavy missiles, heavy assault missiles, torpedoes, and cruise missiles. Let's throw in bombs as well.

Six turrets: 125 days. I still have 12 more left to train.
Eight launchers: 115 days. I have every missile system.

Sorry, meant 12 more on the turrets, not 18.

Turret support skills, all of them, take 106 days, one of which benefits only two platforms (controlled bursts is entirely useless for projectiles) and three of which have more of an effect on some types than others: trajectory analysis isn't very helpful for lasers, whereas sharpshooter isn't a big deal for blasters or autocannons. Motion prediction could also be said to be less helpful for pulse lasers than it is for blasters and autocannons, and it's almost not worth talking about for beams, artillery, or railguns.

All of the missile skills, which take 112 days, have roughly equal effects on their respective systems. The effect is more even.

Once again, you're ignoring the built in training of support skills to turret training and the fact that all gunnery support skills (save Controlled Bursts) apply to all turret weapons while no missile support skill translates anywhere outside of missiles.

Missiles are a class of weapon, the training equivalent of Hybrids. As you noted above, it takes longer to train all Missiles than all Hybrids. Saying "just hybrids" as if missiles should be the training equivalent of all turrets (3 classes) is ridiculous.

Missiles take longer to train to completion, but can be trained piecemeal. Turrets take less time to train to completion, have common support skills (allowing for quick crosstraining between weapon classes), but have to be trained in order. You can also train all T1 turrets of a class far faster than all T1 missiles to the same skill level.


Train all missile skills to Spec 4 with support skills to 5 takes 244d and you get 6 weapon types (7 inc RLML)
Train all turret skills to Spec 4 with support skills to 5 takes 367d and you get 18 weapon types.

244/7 = 34.8 days per weapon.
367/18 = 20.5 days per weapon.

Ignoring FOF, Defender missiles, and Bombs.

keep the training times roughly the same, however make the prerequisites make more sense. remove the need for smaller weapon specialisation, and increase the support skills required.

this will end up like training for a freighter under the new system. might take you a bit longer to train your first set of t2 large guns, but every set after will take less time to train for due to shared prerequisites that make sense.

yes/no?

If I want to skill straight to T2 large pulse under the current system, I would have to train:
Gunnery 3 through 5
Motion Prediction 1 through 5
Small Energy Turret 4 and 5 (rank 1)
Small Pulse Laser Specialization 1 through 4
Medium Energy Turret 1 through 5 (rank 3)
Medium Pulse Laser Spec 1 through 4
Large Energy Turret 1 through 5

This takes 80 days.


Under my system, if I want to skill straight to T2 large pulse lasers, I would have to train:
Gunnery 3 through 5
Motion Prediction 1 through 5
Small Energy Turret 1 through 3 (now rank 2)
Medium Energy Turret 1 through 3 (now rank 4)
Large Energy Turret 1 through 5 (now rank 6)

Small Energy Turret takes twice as long to go from 1 through 3, so originally taking 4 hours 25 minutes it now takes ~9 hours
Medium Energy Turret takes 4/3 as long to go from 1 through 3, so originally taking 13 hours 20 minutes it now takes 17.75 hours
Large Energy Turret takes 6/5 as long to go from 1 through 5, so originally taking 29 days 15 hours it now takes 35 days, 13 hours

Motion Prediction 1 through 5 and gunnery 3 through 5 take 17 days, 17 hours.

9 hours + 17.75 hours + 35 days 13 hours + 17 days 17 hours = ~54 days, 8 hours.
This seems fair considering how much longer it would take to skill everything to its max than before.

tl;dr because nobody wants to read that ******* wall of MATH:

Training large pulse spec 1:

• Old way: 79 days
• New way: 54 days

That's nice, isn't it?


However, there's a drawback
Training all lasers to lowest possible specs that get you all T2 currently takes 99 days, getting you small spec 4, medium spec 4, and large spec 1
Under this plan it would take 100 days, however you would only get small spec 1, medium spec 1, and large spec 1.

Training all size lasers both beam and pulse to T2:

• Old way: 99 days
• New way: 100 days

However old way gets you spec 4 of the medium and small, whereas the new way gets you spec 1 only

Training large pulse spec 4:

• Old way: 87 days
• New way: 63 days

What does this mean!?
MORE INCENTIVE TO SPECIALIZE