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Mining Barge SP Reimbursement

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Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2013-02-10 23:04:16 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
samualvimes wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
over a month of their time was completely worthless to them now?



And how is worthless?

They got to fly the Orca before the change.
They get to fly it afterwards.

From their perspective, /nothing/ has changed.

What this really boils down to is:
'Waah! they get to do something more easily than I got to.'

That's all.

Do you complain when you go to MacDonalds, and find out they cut the price the day before? When you had a burger the week before and had to pay the higher price?


quoting for emphasis

You were happy with training mining barge V before the changes so it must be worth it. just don't read that dev blog or talk to anyone about the skill requirements and guess what? It affects you not one jot!

Oh and please don't hide behind the "newbies" getting into Orcas it's Malcanis law and all that jazz at work


Let me ask you though, what would you say to the new pilot who just entered your corporation and wants to get into hauling and has his eyes set on the Orca, you know he hates mining and would never have any use of mining barge V. In all honesty you would have to tell him to not train the Orca and wait for CCP to change it.

Surely this is not a good state of affairs for EVE to be in for the coming months. And this does not just apply to Orca's, this also applies to quite a few ships, so the chances of this scenario affecting quite a large majority of new players is very high.


Not just new pilots either. Alts as well.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#62 - 2013-02-10 23:05:30 UTC
Aren Madigan wrote:
In WoW if there's a significant change, usually talents get refunded...


In a game where you can trivially change your talents at any time. Please tell us how this relat3es to EVE at all, a game where you can't trivially change your skills?

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#63 - 2013-02-10 23:06:16 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
over a month of their time was completely worthless to them now?



And how is worthless?

They got to fly the Orca before the change.
They get to fly it afterwards.

From their perspective, /nothing/ has changed.

What this really boils down to is:
'Waah! they get to do something more easily than I got to.'

That's all.

Do you complain when you go to MacDonalds, and find out they cut the price the day before? When you had a burger the week before and had to pay the higher price?


Not only do they get to fly the Orca more easily, but they can fly it better, with less of a clone cost. Not to mention, again, we're talking lost game time. Wasted time is a lot different from spending a little extra money because you didn't buy something when it was on sale or whatever. Its not something that can be adapted to like a nerf can, they literally have no recourse, at all. And clearly CCP is saying they made a mistake with the prereqs by changing them. Generally when you make a mistake, you fix the problems the mistake caused in the first place, something they aren't doing.


Except they always said "If you can fly it now you can fly it after. This cannot be true if they reimburse mining barges training... There also was a much morse silly requirement that is changing. Command ship used to require logistic and even that is not gettign a refund. At least the orca requirement made sense since it was most likely meant from day 1 to be a mining support ship...


I also would agree that those that trained logistics to fly a command ship should also have the option if they choose to remove that skill and re apply the SP. The reason I don't think many would be complaining in regards to this though is that logistics V is generally a very useful skill to have for almost all players, and there would be little reason anyone would want it refunded.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#64 - 2013-02-10 23:06:31 UTC
SoOza N'GasZ wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Ok, now just imagine you are a new player looking at training an orca. You really want it to haul as it is the best ship in a lot of situations for hauling goods. You also think it would be useful as a mobile command platform. You have no intention to mine and hate the idea of mining though. The current choice you would face it to wait 6 or maybe more months for CCP to implement these changes, or alternatively delay your training for 6 months.

I would personally delay training for 6 months enless I really needed the orca for some immediate purpose. Also imagine how pissed those newbs will be who don't read this forum and train for the orca under the current regime.


Changes like this have happened several times in the past & we've never had skillpoints reimbursed. If a person isn't reading the forums then chances are they will never be aware of this change anyway. Skillpoints should never be reimbursed because of changes unless the skill is removed entirely.


dont say people who dont read forums should suffer. its the companies responsibility to inform customers about product changes man.


They do. They inform people on this place called the EVE Online Community Forum.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#65 - 2013-02-10 23:08:03 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:


Let me ask you though, what would you say to the new pilot who just entered your corporation and wants to get into hauling and has his eyes set on the Orca, you know he hates mining and would never have any use of mining barge V. In all honesty you would have to tell him to not train the Orca and wait for CCP to change it.


I woudl either tell them to use the dedicated hauling ship lines (industrials > freighter) if tehy are really serious about hauling stuff or to work on support skill by making it really clear that support skills will be helpfull no matter profession they ever pick up anyway.
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2013-02-10 23:08:31 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
In WoW if there's a significant change, usually talents get refunded...


In a game where you can trivially change your talents at any time. Please tell us how this relat3es to EVE at all, a game where you can't trivially change your skills?


Hey, someone else brought it up as a reason, I was just telling them why the logic didn't work. I'm fine with nerfs not being reimbersed if people can do it on their own. I'm a bit more reluctant when large amounts of time are involved.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#67 - 2013-02-10 23:09:58 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
over a month of their time was completely worthless to them now?



And how is worthless?

They got to fly the Orca before the change.
They get to fly it afterwards.

From their perspective, /nothing/ has changed.

What this really boils down to is:
'Waah! they get to do something more easily than I got to.'

That's all.

Do you complain when you go to MacDonalds, and find out they cut the price the day before? When you had a burger the week before and had to pay the higher price?


Not only do they get to fly the Orca more easily, but they can fly it better, with less of a clone cost. Not to mention, again, we're talking lost game time. Wasted time is a lot different from spending a little extra money because you didn't buy something when it was on sale or whatever. Its not something that can be adapted to like a nerf can, they literally have no recourse, at all. And clearly CCP is saying they made a mistake with the prereqs by changing them. Generally when you make a mistake, you fix the problems the mistake caused in the first place, something they aren't doing.


Except they always said "If you can fly it now you can fly it after. This cannot be true if they reimburse mining barges training... There also was a much morse silly requirement that is changing. Command ship used to require logistic and even that is not gettign a refund. At least the orca requirement made sense since it was most likely meant from day 1 to be a mining support ship...


I also would agree that those that trained logistics to fly a command ship should also have the option if they choose to remove that skill and re apply the SP. The reason I don't think many would be complaining in regards to this though is that logistics V is generally a very useful skill to have for almost all players, and there would be little reason anyone would want it refunded.


Logistics is no more usefull to a character not flying any logi ship as mining abrge is useless for a character not mining. The only difference is the requirement at least made sense in the case of the orca while it was probably selected by blindly throwing a dart on a skillsheet in the case of command ships...
Mc Scam
Doomheim
#68 - 2013-02-10 23:10:25 UTC
Lets start to refund everything!
A ship gets rebalanced? Refund invested SP and ISK.
AI gets overhaul? Refund invested SP and ISK in drones & droneships.
Skill req. change? Refund invested SP so we can invest in the other new lower requrements.
New feature you don't like. Full refund of all subs ever paid & all time invested.


Pah.. investing isk, SP & time is risky, sometimes you are rewarded sometimes you lose out. It would not fit the game if we would get refunds.
Thur Barbek
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2013-02-10 23:13:05 UTC
Reimbursing skillpoints should never be done unless removing skills completely.

One example of why mining barge V is still useful:

Your corp/alliance is already hauling and boosting with an orca during a mining op. You can now use your orca pilot as an extra miner if you have mining barge V. If your corp has 2+ pilots with orca skills but no mining skills, tons of possible income is lost.

Now, please stop saying the skill is useless. It allows flexibility as does any skill.
samualvimes
Brothers At Arms
#70 - 2013-02-10 23:14:15 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
samualvimes wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Aren Madigan wrote:
over a month of their time was completely worthless to them now?



And how is worthless?

They got to fly the Orca before the change.
They get to fly it afterwards.

From their perspective, /nothing/ has changed.

What this really boils down to is:
'Waah! they get to do something more easily than I got to.'

That's all.

Do you complain when you go to MacDonalds, and find out they cut the price the day before? When you had a burger the week before and had to pay the higher price?


quoting for emphasis

You were happy with training mining barge V before the changes so it must be worth it. just don't read that dev blog or talk to anyone about the skill requirements and guess what? It affects you not one jot!

Oh and please don't hide behind the "newbies" getting into Orcas it's Malcanis law and all that jazz at work


Let me ask you though, what would you say to the new pilot who just entered your corporation and wants to get into hauling and has his eyes set on the Orca, you know he hates mining and would never have any use of mining barge V. In all honesty you would have to tell him to not train the Orca and wait for CCP to change it.

Surely this is not a good state of affairs for EVE to be in for the coming months. And this does not just apply to Orca's, this also applies to quite a few ships, so the chances of this scenario affecting quite a large majority of new players is very high.


I would say: get an Itty V and play around with that for a bit to make sure hauling is what you want to do before going for the high SP Orca. And I would say this before and after the changes!

If you've never tried PvP in EvE it's quite possible you've missed out on one of the greatest rushes available in modern gaming.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#71 - 2013-02-10 23:14:51 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:


Let me ask you though, what would you say to the new pilot who just entered your corporation and wants to get into hauling and has his eyes set on the Orca, you know he hates mining and would never have any use of mining barge V. In all honesty you would have to tell him to not train the Orca and wait for CCP to change it.


I woudl either tell them to use the dedicated hauling ship lines (industrials > freighter) if tehy are really serious about hauling stuff or to work on support skill by making it really clear that support skills will be helpfull no matter profession they ever pick up anyway.


But then you would not be telling the truth to him as Mining Barge V will not be any use to him in a lot of professions. The only profession it has any use in is for mining and he hates mining.

Yes, you could tell him to skip the orca and move onto freighters which is what I would probably be telling him also. But this is meaning that he misses out on one of the best haulers in the game for new pilots and even experienced pilots who wish to modify the slot layout, and also a ship which has a multitude of other uses other than just hauling, such as acting as a command outpost in hostile space with no stations available.
Aren Madigan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2013-02-10 23:19:10 UTC
Mc Scam wrote:
Lets start to refund everything!
A ship gets rebalanced? Refund invested SP and ISK.
AI gets overhaul? Refund invested SP and ISK in drones & droneships.
Skill req. change? Refund invested SP so we can invest in the other new lower requrements.
New feature you don't like. Full refund of all subs ever paid & all time invested.


Pah.. investing isk, SP & time is risky, sometimes you are rewarded sometimes you lose out. It would not fit the game if we would get refunds.



Ever hear of the slippery slope fallacy? And probably a bit of strawman.

While again, reimbersing because someone wants to be the flavor of the month is silly, reimbersing because they changed the skill requirements is a bit different. This is a pretty unique change. This is not the kind of change that someone should have to gamble with and not something I imagine anyone could have seen coming. One can see nerfs and such coming, one can decide instead to play the way they feel like rather than go for flavor of the month. One can't reasonably decide that "oh, I'm going to train this or wait on this thing I want in hopes that they change the skill requirements and train this instead because it'll let me fly it better when the change happens". Well, ok NOW they can do that for this particular change, but yeah.
stoicfaux
#73 - 2013-02-10 23:19:55 UTC
Buying a mining ship for its hauling/mobile base qualities and then demanding a refund on the mining prereqs is the definition of chutzpah. You knew what you were buying when you bought it. You will still be able to fly the ship even after the prereq changes. You have lost nothing and deserve nothing, IMO.


On a side note, as much as I would like to dismiss the OP as a one-off idiot, we all need to realize that people like the OP have been around for a long time, because even the Bible addressed this issue in the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard. (The one where the workers hired in the morning and those hired late at night were (unfairly!) paid the same wage for different amounts of work.) We should probably assume that there are plenty of people out there who think like the OP on this matter.


The following is where I mock the OP's proposal. Feel free to skip to the next post in the thread.

I bought a Nighthawk command ship for running missions. I never intend to fit a warfare link on it nor fly in a fleet with it. I demand a refund of the Warfare Link Specialist prereq. I also never intend to fly a HAC, so I want a refund of those skills as well.

I also trained up T2 Large Artillery, but I never plan on using small or medium artillery. I want a refund on those skills as well.

All the newbie faction mining frigates were replaced with the Venture. I want a refund on my racial frigate skills.

I've graduated and spent ten years in my field. However, the foreign language requirement for my major was recently removed/replaced. I want a tuition refund for those credit hours.


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#74 - 2013-02-10 23:20:22 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:


Let me ask you though, what would you say to the new pilot who just entered your corporation and wants to get into hauling and has his eyes set on the Orca, you know he hates mining and would never have any use of mining barge V. In all honesty you would have to tell him to not train the Orca and wait for CCP to change it.


I woudl either tell them to use the dedicated hauling ship lines (industrials > freighter) if tehy are really serious about hauling stuff or to work on support skill by making it really clear that support skills will be helpfull no matter profession they ever pick up anyway.


But then you would not be telling the truth to him as Mining Barge V will not be any use to him in a lot of professions. The only profession it has any use in is for mining and he hates mining.

Yes, you could tell him to skip the orca and move onto freighters which is what I would probably be telling him also. But this is meaning that he misses out on one of the best haulers in the game for new pilots and even experienced pilots who wish to modify the slot layout, and also a ship which has a multitude of other uses other than just hauling, such as acting as a command outpost in hostile space with no stations available.


I never said I would tell him to go toward an orca anyway so he would not train mining barge at all. The support skill I would suggest are teh one which apply to any ship in the game. Cap skills, armor/shield tank, stuff always usefull in a way or another. As stated above, the best jump for a newbie for hauling is to use the Iteron line to see if he really likes playing space trucker anyway before he invest time and isk in an orca. If he does not like it, an iteron can usually fulfill most regular player need for transportation. If he likes it, he can just go from there to bigger/better stuff.

Telling a newbie who ask about hauling that he should get in an orca asap is just stupid anyway.
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
#75 - 2013-02-10 23:20:37 UTC
samualvimes wrote:
I would say: get an Itty V and play around with that for a bit to make sure hauling is what you want to do before going for the high SP Orca. And I would say this before and after the changes!
You'd tell them to train almost a month for something that will have its skill requirement reduced to less than a day? Blink
samualvimes
Brothers At Arms
#76 - 2013-02-10 23:22:41 UTC
Pohbis wrote:
samualvimes wrote:
I would say: get an Itty V and play around with that for a bit to make sure hauling is what you want to do before going for the high SP Orca. And I would say this before and after the changes!
You'd tell them to train almost a month for something that will have its skill requirement reduced to less than a day? Blink



Totally cos I'm not a nice person

If you've never tried PvP in EvE it's quite possible you've missed out on one of the greatest rushes available in modern gaming.
Thur Barbek
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2013-02-10 23:22:48 UTC
Pohbis wrote:
samualvimes wrote:
I would say: get an Itty V and play around with that for a bit to make sure hauling is what you want to do before going for the high SP Orca. And I would say this before and after the changes!
You'd tell them to train almost a month for something that will have its skill requirement reduced to less than a day? Blink


Flying an iteron V with lvl 1 industrial skill will give very very bad cargo space. Other ships are better than an iteron V at skill levels 1-4. So to get the best hauler you still need... gallente industrial V
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#78 - 2013-02-10 23:23:25 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Buying a mining ship for its hauling/mobile base qualities and then demanding a refund on the mining prereqs is the definition of chutzpah. You knew what you were buying when you bought it. You will still be able to fly the ship even after the prereq changes. You have lost nothing and deserve nothing, IMO.


On a side note, as much as I would like to dismiss the OP as a one-off idiot, we all need to realize that people like the OP have been around for a long time, because even the Bible addressed this issue in the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard. (The one where the workers hired in the morning and those hired late at night were (unfairly!) paid the same wage for different amounts of work.) We should probably assume that there are plenty of people out there who think like the OP on this matter.


The following is where I mock the OP's proposal. Feel free to skip to the next post in the thread.

I bought a Nighthawk command ship for running missions. I never intend to fit a warfare link on it nor fly in a fleet with it. I demand a refund of the Warfare Link Specialist prereq. I also never intend to fly a HAC, so I want a refund of those skills as well.

I also trained up T2 Large Artillery, but I never plan on using small or medium artillery. I want a refund on those skills as well.

All the newbie faction mining frigates were replaced with the Venture. I want a refund on my racial frigate skills.

I've graduated and spent ten years in my field. However, the foreign language requirement for my major was recently removed/replaced. I want a tuition refund for those credit hours.




This ^^ Hahaha, classic.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#79 - 2013-02-10 23:24:53 UTC
Pohbis wrote:
samualvimes wrote:
I would say: get an Itty V and play around with that for a bit to make sure hauling is what you want to do before going for the high SP Orca. And I would say this before and after the changes!
You'd tell them to train almost a month for something that will have its skill requirement reduced to less than a day? Blink


Yes because getting the skill to 5 will still be a really nice investement for anyone really interested into hauling.
samualvimes
Brothers At Arms
#80 - 2013-02-10 23:25:53 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Pohbis wrote:
samualvimes wrote:
I would say: get an Itty V and play around with that for a bit to make sure hauling is what you want to do before going for the high SP Orca. And I would say this before and after the changes!
You'd tell them to train almost a month for something that will have its skill requirement reduced to less than a day? Blink


Yes because getting the skill to 5 will still be a really nice investement for anyone really interested into hauling.



Seconded. Having relevent hauler V will give a huge increase in cargo space over just training it to 1.

If you've never tried PvP in EvE it's quite possible you've missed out on one of the greatest rushes available in modern gaming.