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Mining Barge SP Reimbursement

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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-02-10 21:55:49 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Ok, now just imagine you are a new player looking at training an orca. You really want it to haul as it is the best ship in a lot of situations for hauling goods. You also think it would be useful as a mobile command platform. You have no intention to mine and hate the idea of mining though. The current choice you would face it to wait 6 or maybe more months for CCP to implement these changes, or alternatively delay your training for 6 months.

I would personally delay training for 6 months enless I really needed the orca for some immediate purpose. Also imagine how pissed those newbs will be who don't read this forum and train for the orca under the current regime.


Changes like this have happened several times in the past & we've never had skillpoints reimbursed. If a person isn't reading the forums then chances are they will never be aware of this change anyway. Skillpoints should never be reimbursed because of changes unless the skill is removed entirely.

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2013-02-10 21:56:59 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
then I guess you now have a useless laser skill enless you fly amarr.

Choosing not to use a skill doesn't make the skill useless.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#23 - 2013-02-10 21:57:22 UTC
CCP don't refund SP because of prerequisite changes, the only time they have refunded SP is when they removed learning skills.

TL;DR

Nope, you shouldn't get a refund, the mining skills aren't useless and aren't being removed from the game. HTFU.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-02-10 22:01:05 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
When Nano-ships were nerfed, pilots who trained to use that tactic were not reimbursed.
When Gallente ships suffered inadvertent nerfs due to changes regarding MWDs/Scrams, Nos, and webs... they were not reimbursed.
When Supercarriers were nerfed, pilots who trained specifically for that ship were not reimbursed.
When Titans lost their AoE Doomsday and were nerfed over and over and over again... Titan pilots were not reimbursed.
When HMLs were slightly nerfed... people were not reimbursed.
The list goes one.

Changes happen. No skill is ever useless. You needed that skill at the time and it served its purpose. No harm done. Move on.


I agree, if ships or modules are nerfed then I wouldn't ask for a SP refund ever as the game changes, and what is the hottest thing today inevitably will not be in the coming months. The only difference here is CCP is embarking on a fundamental reform of the skill system. The last time I remember them doing that was with the learning skills. Change has to happen, but when tinkering with the skill system which many spend months planning, and spend cold hard cash on activating there accounts to train these skills, then I think an exception could be made.


Subscription fees don't just allow you to train skills you know. The primary issue with the sort of skillpoint reimbursement that you're asking for is it increases flavour of the month accessibility.

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Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#25 - 2013-02-10 22:03:06 UTC
I told you that your viewpoint was a minority OP.

This is pretty pathetic to be honest.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Melikor Tissant
Odd Fluffy Bunnies
#26 - 2013-02-10 22:08:27 UTC
I don't understand why people are playing the blind eye on how the orca works.

* It can be a great mobile base while soloing WHs for example, without use of the mining benefits.
* It can haul decent size carbo with a very big tank, plus a few ships inside it.
* It can be used for logistics in places without a station.
* It can spin really quickly.

Mining barge skill was a lesser evil to train for an orca for non miners (hell, you are not even mining), but its not "only 15 days". Its almost a whole month of training difference. A time which can be spent on other things.
After the change you can get into a hauling or mobile base orca, up and running, in a month, while before you were still not even close to fly that ship.

Those 30 days skill are not being used at all in an orca anyway. So I understand that people will want those 30 days back. Its a lot of skill points (not hugely a lot, but still, 30 days?).

You can easily distinguished between people who want that skill (people who added the extra 2 weeks for exhumers as an example) and people who don't (people who did not), and you can easily give them the option of reallocating those skill points into the barges anyway (retriever and so on) or just put it someplace else if they way. We are still talking about 1.5M sp or so which can be reallocated to a better use.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-02-10 22:12:06 UTC
Melikor Tissant wrote:
You can easily distinguished between people who want that skill (people who added the extra 2 weeks for exhumers as an example) and people who don't (people who did not), and you can easily give them the option of reallocating those skill points into the barges anyway (retriever and so on) or just put it someplace else if they way. We are still talking about 1.5M sp or so which can be reallocated to a better use.


If CCP did this, they would have to reimburse skillpoints for every change ever made. I don't understand how you can not see the problems this would cause.

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Kate stark
#28 - 2013-02-10 22:12:52 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Melikor Tissant wrote:
You can easily distinguished between people who want that skill (people who added the extra 2 weeks for exhumers as an example) and people who don't (people who did not), and you can easily give them the option of reallocating those skill points into the barges anyway (retriever and so on) or just put it someplace else if they way. We are still talking about 1.5M sp or so which can be reallocated to a better use.


If CCP did this, they would have to reimburse skillpoints for every change ever made. I don't understand how you can not see the problems this would cause.


refund all skill points for all players.
it'll save the GD spam, at least.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#29 - 2013-02-10 22:13:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Melikor Tissant wrote:
I don't understand why people are playing the blind eye on how the orca works.

* It can be a great mobile base while soloing WHs for example, without use of the mining benefits.
* It can haul decent size carbo with a very big tank, plus a few ships inside it.
* It can be used for logistics in places without a station.
* It can spin really quickly.

Mining barge skill was a lesser evil to train for an orca for non miners (hell, you are not even mining), but its not "only 15 days". Its almost a whole month of training difference. A time which can be spent on other things.
After the change you can get into a hauling or mobile base orca, up and running, in a month, while before you were still not even close to fly that ship.

Those 30 days skill are not being used at all in an orca anyway. So I understand that people will want those 30 days back. Its a lot of skill points (not hugely a lot, but still, 30 days?).

You can easily distinguished between people who want that skill (people who added the extra 2 weeks for exhumers as an example) and people who don't (people who did not), and you can easily give them the option of reallocating those skill points into the barges anyway (retriever and so on) or just put it someplace else if they way. We are still talking about 1.5M sp or so which can be reallocated to a better use.


Although all of the above may be true, it doesn't make a reimbursement right. Capital pilots are going to be struck much harder by this phenomenon than the Orca pilots will be, and I don't hear them complaining. There are literally hundreds of skills and ships that will be effected by this. CCP does not owe you your skills back. You are still able to use those skills. You made the choice to train them knowing that those skillpoints wouldn't benefit you in any other way than to get that specific ship. Now, you need to live with your decision, end of.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Kate stark
#30 - 2013-02-10 22:15:47 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
Melikor Tissant wrote:
I don't understand why people are playing the blind eye on how the orca works.

* It can be a great mobile base while soloing WHs for example, without use of the mining benefits.
* It can haul decent size carbo with a very big tank, plus a few ships inside it.
* It can be used for logistics in places without a station.
* It can spin really quickly.

Mining barge skill was a lesser evil to train for an orca for non miners (hell, you are not even mining), but its not "only 15 days". Its almost a whole month of training difference. A time which can be spent on other things.
After the change you can get into a hauling or mobile base orca, up and running, in a month, while before you were still not even close to fly that ship.

Those 30 days skill are not being used at all in an orca anyway. So I understand that people will want those 30 days back. Its a lot of skill points (not hugely a lot, but still, 30 days?).

You can easily distinguished between people who want that skill (people who added the extra 2 weeks for exhumers as an example) and people who don't (people who did not), and you can easily give them the option of reallocating those skill points into the barges anyway (retriever and so on) or just put it someplace else if they way. We are still talking about 1.5M sp or so which can be reallocated to a better use.


Although all of the above may be true, it doesn't make a reimbursement right. Capital pilots are going to be struck much harder by this phenomenon than the Orca pilots will be, and I don't hear them complaining. There are literally hundreds of skills and ships that will be effected by this. CCP does not owe you your skills back. You made the choice to train them knowing that those skillpoints wouldn't benefit you in any other way than to get that specific ship. Now, you need to live with your decision, end of.


if it makes them feel better, i guess they could pretend they haven't read the dev blog, i mean most people don't read them.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#31 - 2013-02-10 22:17:20 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
I told you that your viewpoint was a minority OP.

This is pretty pathetic to be honest.


This comment is also pathetic and useless.

But anyway, if people are against the idea of SP reimbursement then I would expect CCP to follow the majority view. But I just wondered what peoples opinions were as a shouting match between 2 or 3 people isn't representative of wider opinion. Although I think SP reimbursment would be good in this case myself, I would respect the majority view of the eve community.
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2013-02-10 22:20:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Takseen
Kate stark wrote:


refund all skill points for all players.
it'll save the GD spam, at least.


I can just imagine how horrifying that would be.

To OP : I can see where you're coming from on the skill prereq issue. But I don't think Mining Barge V is quite useless enough to an Orca pilot to be worth a skill reimbursement. Not even the poor folks who trained Survey V for the old probing skills got anything back.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#33 - 2013-02-10 22:21:13 UTC
Melikor Tissant wrote:
I don't understand why people are playing the blind eye on how the orca works.

* It can be a great mobile base while soloing WHs for example, without use of the mining benefits.
* It can haul decent size carbo with a very big tank, plus a few ships inside it.
* It can be used for logistics in places without a station.
* It can spin really quickly.

Mining barge skill was a lesser evil to train for an orca for non miners (hell, you are not even mining), but its not "only 15 days". Its almost a whole month of training difference. A time which can be spent on other things.
After the change you can get into a hauling or mobile base orca, up and running, in a month, while before you were still not even close to fly that ship.

Those 30 days skill are not being used at all in an orca anyway. So I understand that people will want those 30 days back. Its a lot of skill points (not hugely a lot, but still, 30 days?).

You can easily distinguished between people who want that skill (people who added the extra 2 weeks for exhumers as an example) and people who don't (people who did not), and you can easily give them the option of reallocating those skill points into the barges anyway (retriever and so on) or just put it someplace else if they way. We are still talking about 1.5M sp or so which can be reallocated to a better use.


Yes. You just explained my point better than I could explain it myself. This is a pretty comprehensive argument in regards reimbursing mining barge V.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#34 - 2013-02-10 22:27:43 UTC
I'm quite happy with this change because all this character needs to do to fly my alt's Orca is to train Industrial Command Ships to I. This is literally an awesome change.

Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
But anyway, if people are against the idea of SP reimbursement then I would expect CCP to follow the majority view.

CCP isn't following a "majority view", they're doing what they think is best for the game.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-02-10 22:29:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
I told you that your viewpoint was a minority OP.

This is pretty pathetic to be honest.


This comment is also pathetic and useless.

But anyway, if people are against the idea of SP reimbursement then I would expect CCP to follow the majority view. But I just wondered what peoples opinions were as a shouting match between 2 or 3 people isn't representative of wider opinion. Although I think SP reimbursment would be good in this case myself, I would respect the majority view of the eve community.


A majority view isn't always the best view just as a minority view isn't always the worst. You have to take a broader view when it comes to this sort of thing. Personally I would love for a whole bunch of stuff to be reimbursed now that I no longer need it, but it's a bad idea & I refuse to support it because the problems it would cause far outweigh the benefits.

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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
#36 - 2013-02-10 22:29:22 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
I am sure there will be those who disagree with this also, and if that is the case than I respect that view, and would kindly ask for others to respect opposing views also.
There's a reason why the other thread, which you were active in, got moved to Skill Discussions.

Could you show some respect as well and not go and create additional threads, especially in the wrong sub-forum. Thanks.
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#37 - 2013-02-10 22:30:37 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Although I think SP reimbursment would be good in this case myself, I would respect the majority view of the eve community.


That's very noble of you.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#38 - 2013-02-10 22:31:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Pohbis wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
I am sure there will be those who disagree with this also, and if that is the case than I respect that view, and would kindly ask for others to respect opposing views also.
There's a reason why the other thread, which you were active in, got moved to Skill Discussions.

Could you show some respect as well and not go and create additional threads, especially in the wrong sub-forum. Thanks.


It seemed appropriate to put an issue regarding SP reimbursement in GD to me. If not then I expect the mods will be the ones who decide that.
SoOza N'GasZ
L F C
Ethereal Dawn
#39 - 2013-02-10 22:35:41 UTC
eve is a product we pay for. it goes out advertised as something we decide we want to pay for. if the skills are changed and i trained for them... payed money to be able to train these chosen skills; I dont think they should EVER just be taken away from me..... and if so: the LEAST i demand is SP reimbursement. who does not agree with me hands up so i can laugh.

Legba
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#40 - 2013-02-10 22:35:43 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
I told you that your viewpoint was a minority OP.

This is pretty pathetic to be honest.


This comment is also pathetic and useless.

But anyway, if people are against the idea of SP reimbursement then I would expect CCP to follow the majority view. But I just wondered what peoples opinions were as a shouting match between 2 or 3 people isn't representative of wider opinion. Although I think SP reimbursment would be good in this case myself, I would respect the majority view of the eve community.


A majority view isn't always the best view just as a minority view isn't always the worst. You have to take a broader view when it comes to this sort of thing. Personally I would love for a whole bunch of stuff to be reimbursed now that I no longer need it, but it's a bad idea & I refuse to support it because the problems it would cause far outweigh the benefits.


Yes indeed. Although as a player I wouldn't expect my decision to be given any greater weight than someone who has an opposing view. If the Devs decide this is a good idea then I am sure they will implement it though. They know far more than most of us discussing this, and I just see my position as a valid customer and as someone who can perhaps flag up these issues which may cause dissapointment to myself and perhaps some others.