EVE General Discussion

Even when this is off topic now am I still curious about this...


You are saying you know of circles that are not round but have corners? Or do you want to talk about a group of people that are sometimes being called a circle?

No. Those who planned ahead were able to gain an advantage over others. After the change did the advantage disappear and not be gained again.

You mean theoretically, not mathematically. Practically was it possible to gain an advantage and people trained for it. Others did not, and for other practical reasons, and to gain a different advantage (i.e. getting into a ship sooner). You can also turn this around and say that those who did train them only had a disadvantage (in PvP) and those who did not train them gained an advantage, which was lost, too. It then depends on what you see as your advantage. You only cannot argue about what a "mathematical" difference it makes, and I am guessing you thereby mean "with time travelling towards infinity", when EVE is only 10 years old.

Here's how to approach anything in EVE: do what you want to do now, and realise that as soon as tomorrow CCP will change that thing that you're doing.

I'm firmly in the "opportunity cost" side of this argument: you trained Mining Barge 5 so you could fly the Orca. The Orca is getting changed to no longer require that skill, so you now have Mining Barge 5 as a reminder of the years/months you were able to make use of this ship. It's not "wasted" any more than Gunnery 5 is "wasted" every time you fly an industrial ship. The skill is still there in case you need to make use of it later.

Enjoy having the legacy skill. Who knows, maybe CCP will update mining to make it interesting and you'll actually find the skill useful in the future?

Not really, no. Person B only “lost” because he never actually chose to get the ship he was supposedly training for in spite of having every chance to do so. His choice not to get that skill isn't really something that should be compensated for — after all, it's what he chose to do; what it turns out he actually wanted, nor can it honestly be considered a loss to begin with. He could have had his advantage; he chose not to. Why should he get something he chose not to get? All he had to do was spend two seconds and two mouse clicks and he would have had that Orca, if he actually did want it after all, and he would thus (still) have lost nothing.

Whether or not person A is “in the black”, SP-wise, from his investment doesn't matter. What he did was spend x amount of time to get a distinct and rule-bound advantage over players who did not spent that time, and whether he's started to earn back more SP than he spent doesn't change the fact that the advantage he was training for is gone. This lost advantage means that the training did not do what it was supposed to do, and so the training time is reimbursed.

Just like person A, person B spent y amount of time to get a distinct and rule-bound advantage over players who did not spend that time… and guess what? He got it, both before and after the change. In game-mechanics terms, he lost nothing since, unlike person A, he still has the exact same abilities and advantages as before, and this holds true even if he decided at the last minute not to get that Orca after all. At every step along the way, the training time did (and still does) what it's supposed to do and he got exactly what he was training for, so the training time is not being reimbursed.

…and that's utterly irrelevant (and, in truth, somewhat inaccurate). It's not about profit or loss in terms of amount of SP in the character sheet — it's about getting what you paid for. In the case of the learning skills, you no longer were (thus: reimbursement); in the case of the Orca, you still are (thus: no reimbursement).

The whole mining barge complaint is a nice diversion, but that is all it is. The people who complain are the ones who are getting the Orca, not the ones who are training barges to fly barges. These people will still get their Orca; they will still be able to fly it; they will lose nothing unless they very carefully and deliberately sabotage themselves, at which point they got what they wanted anyway. You could start from scratch and have the Orca before the change happens — that's how much you have to screw up to miss out on maintaining the advantage you train for. If you absolutely have to have that advantage now rather than wait until you can buy it piecemeal at a lower individual (but higher total) cost, you can. If, two weeks from the patch, you decide that you want to train for Orca, the correct decision will be to wait until after the patch, because you'll get it sooner that way.

So what you're saying is everyone should get reimbursed for prerequisite skills being removed in the past also, or just this once because you somehow feel entitled?

It should mean everything in a way since the entire reason for reimbursements is for lost time. Person A gained time unless you remove the variable that he had the skill trained long enough to profit from it. Whether they lost or gained an advantage is meaningless. Because guess what nerfs are? The removing or reducing of an advantage. So claiming the advantage is what matters opens up the argument to nerfs mattering as the result is the same.

EDIT: By the way, any time you say something is irrelevant, I'm going to ignore it because you don't get to make that judgement based on nothing.



When talking about SP, only gains and losses in SP are what matters. You can gain ISK from virtually anything.

yes hello

if i trained industrial command ships V under the current system, then got podded a lot and lost mining barge, could i still fly the orca?

If you want to play the "Stop living in the past"-card, then it should apply to both sides and the people that are debating to get their SP they trained back then but do not not need anymore "soonish" should also have a big sip of the "Stop-living-in-the-past"-potion. They made a choice back then, don't gripe about it now.

EDIT:


Not for lost time, just lost skill-points.

One more point about the learning-skill reinbursement.

EVERYONE got their invested SP in the skill-tree reinbursed. And everyone profited from the time they invested in said skill-tree.