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Mining Barge SP Reimbursement

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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#301 - 2013-02-12 15:49:16 UTC
Poe's law can be such a problem.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#302 - 2013-02-12 16:13:15 UTC
Here is a pretty straight forward example of a real situation that would affect most people and is analogous to the Orca issue.

Take the skill drone interfacing, your a combat pilot, and like most combat pilots you trained the skill to level 5 for the 20% extra bonus to damage for your drones. The skill also give a 20% bonus to mining drone yield also, and although your not interested in mining and never have been, you still train the skill to level 5 simply because the 100% increase to your drone damage is essential for any good combat pilot.

Now imagine CCP decide the skill training time for increasing drone damage by 100% is far too high, and so they decide to remove the bonus to damage from the drone interfacing skill and instead simply give all drones the 100% extra base damage.

Now, according to arguments from those such as Tippia, this would be perfectly fine, the skill still has value, despite the fact that you don't mine and so the skill has no actual value to you. You would not get any SP reimbursed and you should just go away and htfu.

I think as most people on these forums would be effected by this change, they would be outraged, and they would come on these forums complaining. I would challenge any of you to say this is not the case.

Well, guess what, exactly the same thing is happening with the mining barge skill. And when arguing against people like myself and others claiming this is not the way for CCP to go, then just think about the future ramifications of what you are actually arguing for.
Kate stark
#303 - 2013-02-12 16:39:48 UTC
20 pages, impressive.

perhaps those people with orcas should give mining a go. i mean, they have the skills to do it. bonus points, you can cry about it while you do it because it's so easily afkable!

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#304 - 2013-02-12 16:41:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Karl Hobb
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Now imagine CCP decide the skill training time for increasing drone damage by 100% is far too high, and so they decide to remove the bonus to damage from the drone interfacing skill and instead simply give all drones the 100% extra base damage.

That would be changing what the skill does, which is not what's happening with the Orca and its pre-reqs. You can still fly the Orca, and mining barges at the highest level (or ignore the skill completely), which means that nothing has changed in your character's abilities.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#305 - 2013-02-12 16:49:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
Karl Hobb wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Now imagine CCP decide the skill training time for increasing drone damage by 100% is far too high, and so they decide to remove the bonus to damage from the drone interfacing skill and instead simply give all drones the 100% extra base damage.

That would be changing what the skill does, which is not what's happening with the Orca and its pre-reqs. You can still fly the Orca, and mining barges at the highest level (or ignore the skill completely), which means that nothing has changed in your character's abilities.


Nope, logically the scenario I gave is exactly the same. Mining barge previously allowed you to fly an orca, and now they are taking that aspect away. In the hypothetical example I gave the drone skill used to give a bonus to drone damage, and then it doesn't.

Logically and fundamentally there is no way you can argue the two examples are different, any difference is merely superficial.

Are you starting to see the unfairness of the situation now? Judging from the lack of rational responses in reply from the adversaries to refunding SP, Im thinking I have pretty much nailed the argument with this one.
Kate stark
#306 - 2013-02-12 16:55:56 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Now imagine CCP decide the skill training time for increasing drone damage by 100% is far too high, and so they decide to remove the bonus to damage from the drone interfacing skill and instead simply give all drones the 100% extra base damage.

That would be changing what the skill does, which is not what's happening with the Orca and its pre-reqs. You can still fly the Orca, and mining barges at the highest level (or ignore the skill completely), which means that nothing has changed in your character's abilities.


Nope, logically the scenario I gave is exactly the same. Mining barge previously allowed you to fly an orca, and now they are taking that aspect away. In the hypothetical example I gave the drone skill used to give a bonus to drone damage, and then it doesn't.

Logically and fundamentally there is no way you can argue the two examples are different, any difference is merely superficial.

Are you starting to see the unfairness of the situation now? Judging from the lack of rational responses in reply from the adversaries to refunding SP, Im thinking I have pretty much nailed the argument with this one.


what unfairness? i honestly don't see what you're so upset about.

can you fly an orca now? yes.
can you fly an orca after the change? yes
so what's the issue?

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#307 - 2013-02-12 16:57:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Karl Hobb wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Now imagine CCP decide the skill training time for increasing drone damage by 100% is far too high, and so they decide to remove the bonus to damage from the drone interfacing skill and instead simply give all drones the 100% extra base damage.

That would be changing what the skill does, which is not what's happening with the Orca and its pre-reqs. You can still fly the Orca, and mining barges at the highest level (or ignore the skill completely), which means that nothing has changed in your character's abilities.


Nope, logically the scenario I gave is exactly the same. Mining barge was previously required to fly an orca, they are taking that away. In the hypothetical example I gave the drone skill used to give a bonus to drone damage, and then it doesn't.

Logically and fundamentally there is no way you can argue the two examples are different, any difference is merely superficial.

Are you starting to see the unfairness of the situation now? Judging from the lack of rational responses in reply from the adversaries to refunding SP, Im thinking I have pretty much nailed the argument with this one.
Except you haven't, because they are not the same.

The Orca change means you can fly and use the same ships as before, with the same bonuses. Nothing has been lost.
In your example, you simply removed the bonus and added it directly to the drone. You've not even stated what they then do with the skill.

Geez, what is it with you lot. Logic and game balance, seem not to figure in any of your arguments.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#308 - 2013-02-12 17:01:49 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Nope, logically the scenario I gave is exactly the same.

In what way?

Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Mining barge previously allowed you to fly an orca

No, Mining Barge allows you to fly a mining barge. Industrial Command Ships allows you to fly an Orca. Mining Barge was a prerequisite for Industrial Command Ships, but the fact that it is no longer a prerequisite changes absolutely nothing about your character's capabilities.

Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
and now they are taking that aspect away. In the hypothetical example I gave the drone skill used to give a bonus to drone damage, and then it doesn't.

See above.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Maggeridon Thoraz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#309 - 2013-02-12 18:36:37 UTC
i just think about the ninja looters profession or gankers that just skilled for the orca having a mobile shipbase in hisec. they never intended to mine nor giving mining boost. totally understanable that they are p***ed off and wants sp back.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#310 - 2013-02-12 21:54:39 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…which is factually incorrect. You don't need the skill set to continue flying the ship. Once you have the Industrial Command Ship skill, you have the Orca and the prereqs to that skill no longer matter. So the only ones who'd consider that are the ones who don't understand how the skill system works. Listening to people who don't understand the system is not a good guide for deciding what gets reimbursed and what does not…


I ignored the rest of your post as it is mainly blather with this the only important bit.

Now why do you think they only require one skill when checking whether the pilot can fly a ship. Even a monkey with half a brain could work out that it is due to limiting processing on the CPUs. If the servers had to check for the full skill set everytime a pilot got into a ship then it would put a massive load on the server.

Taking the monkey with half a brain example, it is also pretty obvious to it, that a ship which lists a skill set required to fly, intends that the skill set is actually there on the pilots skill sheet. Given the nature that you cannot train the final skill in the tree without training the pre reqs first this is even more obvious.

So you entire argument there is just ridiculous.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#311 - 2013-02-12 21:59:22 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…which is factually incorrect. You don't need the skill set to continue flying the ship. Once you have the Industrial Command Ship skill, you have the Orca and the prereqs to that skill no longer matter. So the only ones who'd consider that are the ones who don't understand how the skill system works. Listening to people who don't understand the system is not a good guide for deciding what gets reimbursed and what does not…


I ignored the rest of your post as it is mainly blather with this the only important bit.

Now why do you think they only require one skill when checking whether the pilot can fly a ship. Even a monkey with half a brain could work out that it is due to limiting processing on the CPUs. If the servers had to check for the full skill set everytime a pilot got into a ship then it would put a massive load on the server.

Taking the monkey with half a brain example, it is also pretty obvious to it, that a ship which lists a skill set required to fly, intends that the skill set is actually there on the pilots skill sheet. Given the nature that you cannot train the final skill in the tree without training the pre reqs first this is even more obvious.

So you entire argument there is just ridiculous.

The reason why the system was designed as it was is irrelevant in the face of how it works. So for all your talk of what half brained monkeys can understand it is in the end a complete non-factor. What matters is the way the system currently works and that is exactly as Tippia described it.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#312 - 2013-02-12 22:03:08 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

The reason why the system was designed as it was is irrelevant in the face of how it works. So for all your talk of what half brained monkeys can understand it is in the end a complete non-factor. What matters is the way the system currently works and that is exactly as Tippia described it.


Yes, that was the only part of Tipia's posts I could find that actually made sense. What matters is how the system was intended to work. Ever heard of obeying the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law. That's pretty much what Tipia is doing here.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#313 - 2013-02-12 22:09:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Taking the monkey with half a brain example, it is also pretty obvious to it, that a ship which lists a skill set required to fly, intends that the skill set is actually there on the pilots skill sheet.
…except that — as with many conclusions made by monkeys — it's wrong. No, wait, that's mean to monkeys. Given how obvious it is that it doesn't, nor is intended to, work that way, the moneys would suss it out quite easily too. The fact that they're further reinforcing this single-layer requirement rather suggest the opposite of what you claim.

Quote:
Given the nature that you cannot train the final skill in the tree without training the pre reqs first this is even more obvious.
…and what you have to train in order to unlock a skill is completely irrelevant to the equipment that final skill lets you use.

Quote:
So you entire argument there is just ridiculous factual.
Your numerous misunderstandings about how the skill system works does not make my explanation of facts ridiculous. It does give your line of reasoning a distinct air of ignorance though, since you have this tendency to argue against well-known facts.

Quote:
What matters is how the system was intended to work.
Indeed. The system is intended to only care about immediate prerequisites. Mining Barges are not a prerequisite for flying the Orca, for instance — this is entirely intentional. For further examples of this intent, see the SP loss mechanics and what they affect.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#314 - 2013-02-12 22:11:34 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:

Yes, that was the only part of Tipia's posts I could find that actually made sense. What matters is how the system was intended to work. Ever heard of obeying the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law. That's pretty much what Tipia is doing here.

That makes a large assumption about the intentions of the system. For instance the system could have been designed to allow for situations like this to occur with minimal need for alterations.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#315 - 2013-02-12 22:13:39 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:

Yes, that was the only part of Tipia's posts I could find that actually made sense. What matters is how the system was intended to work. Ever heard of obeying the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law. That's pretty much what Tipia is doing here.

That makes a large assumption about the intentions of the system. For instance the system could have been designed to allow for situations like this to occur with minimal need for alterations.


Why would they get you to train a full skill set to fly a ship if that skill set was not required to fly the ship. This is purely for software processing purposes.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#316 - 2013-02-12 22:19:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Rebecha Pucontis
So why do they make you train up a full skill set to fly a ship if that skill set is not required to fly the ship?

The obvious answer is to minimise load on the servers. Whatever CCP intended they would have programmed it this way purely for coding purposes anyway.

Tipia is correct in how the system works, but patently fails to take into account the software processing side of the equation which the devs have to consider.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#317 - 2013-02-12 22:21:03 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:

Yes, that was the only part of Tipia's posts I could find that actually made sense. What matters is how the system was intended to work. Ever heard of obeying the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law. That's pretty much what Tipia is doing here.

That makes a large assumption about the intentions of the system. For instance the system could have been designed to allow for situations like this to occur with minimal need for alterations.


Why would they get you to train a full skill set to fly a ship if that skill set was not required to fly the ship. This is purely for software processing purposes.

At the time it was.

The thing about the benefit of the mining barge skill in the case of training for the orca is that it was a 1 time thing for injecting ICS. Once you got it and took advantage of it it can't be taken away. Since you have an irrevocable benefit from your training it makes no sense to refund the training you did to get that benefit.

It was never about the tree, but always about getting to that skill. The training you did was for that and it allowed you to do that. Being refunded that SP should come with negating the ability to inject the ICS skill thus causing its removal.
Vin King
State War Academy
Caldari State
#318 - 2013-02-12 22:29:32 UTC
Some skill I didn't mind getting yesterday turns out to not have been worth the 15m I spent training it now that I think on it. Can CCP give me every skill in the game to make up for it?

Proud member of the New Order of HighSec
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#319 - 2013-02-12 23:10:22 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
So why do they make you train up a full skill set to fly a ship if that skill set is not required to fly the ship?

The obvious answer is to minimise load on the servers. Whatever CCP intended they would have programmed it this way purely for coding purposes anyway.

Tipia is correct in how the system works, but patently fails to take into account the software processing side of the equation which the devs have to consider.



Actually, no, that's not the most likely reason why it works the way it does.

It all goes back to a time before medical clones, when being podded resulted in guaranteed SP loss (similar thing happens now to stupid people). You could easily have a capital pilot (BS 5, Carrier 1) who gets podded and loses BS 5. The most likely reason for only checking the immediate pre-req is to prevent people from loosing access to ships they could previously fly.

Checking ~10 values instead of one is unlikely to represent a significant server load for such a relatively low occurrence event.

Regardless of all that, do you have any evidence to support your Claim as to the game developer's intent with regards to pre-requisites for flying ships?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
GreenSeed
#320 - 2013-02-13 00:25:18 UTC
instead of asking for SP reimbursements... why not ask for the changes NOT to happen at all? i honestly don't see a point in allowing a newbie to buy 2 plex and buy an orca, just because he can... then lose it miserably and ***** to no end about it.
the orca is a mining support capital ship. it should remain so, and it must be a step up over what regular miners would have to get anyway.

if there's one ship whose prerequisites MAKE sense, it has to be the orca.