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[Resolved] Primed for Peace - A Petition to New Eden
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Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
#141 - 2013-03-11 19:46:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Che Biko
Yesterday, while picketing near the Luminaire Leviathan, my shuttle was fired upon and destroyed.
A press release concerning the incident is in the making. I request that the press and the Roden administration/Federal Intelligence Office do not post any inflammatory or speculative articles concerning the incident.

I advise any who wish to picket at the same location to maintain a distance of around 50 KM from the Leviathan.

Peace,

-Ché Biko

Coordination Channel for Consolidated Space Rescue Cooperation

Open Letter to the Aidonis Foundation Directorate
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#142 - 2013-03-11 19:58:35 UTC
Please, do not trouble the Blockade Fleet as it performs its vital duties. By all means demonstrate, but not in an area where people are trying to work.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#143 - 2013-03-11 20:25:27 UTC
I remember the first few days when that Leviathan got into position. Hundreds of capsuleers came with actual armed various starships, frigates to battleships, and opened fire on it for hours, without being able to inflict any damage on its shields.

Those were not picket shuttles, and nobody fired back at them if I recall correctly, even CONCORD, which is weird.

But I may have missed something, right ?
Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
#144 - 2013-03-11 23:56:05 UTC
ColonelNick
Providence Guard
#145 - 2013-03-12 09:13:04 UTC
After reading this discussion, i have but one question to everyone.

Where was this "Give Caldari Prime back to the Caldari people peacefully" sentiment, BEFORE the war started. It was no where. Because no one saw consequence for not returning it. We had to force it. We had to twist their arms. Now that they are twisted, they shout "why cant this be peaceful... we value peace and are against futher violence". It is merely a whine from those who lost. Like children.

They had their chance to do ALL of the suggestions here BEFORE we retook our Fatherland. Now their words of peace mean nothing to us, because we know that behind the smile, is a sharpened knife. They merely seek to weaken us.

Caldari Prime is ours. The Titan remains as a symbol of our strength. A Beacon of light for the Caldari.

Enough with these pointless discussions on sharing the system. Caldari Meritoracy forbids such things.We earned it by right of conquest. We deserve it by the same right.

-ColonelNick. CEO
Providence Guard.

ColonelNick, CEO, Providence Guard, Callsign: "Codeine"
Fey Ivory
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#146 - 2013-03-12 14:09:55 UTC
Colonel Nick

firstly i am not on either side in this, ewen if i am a guest in Gallante, but i think you should look at the facts of the situation... Caldari is in the very least in a very unstable social situaiton, we could stretch it that its not that far of to a lesser degree of civil war... The Federation despite being engaged in a proxy war on two fronts, is still not commited, its bascially runs like there was peace, there is no will for war, and thus things go on like its peace, the Federation is a democracy... now i dont deny the quality of the Caldari fleet... but i dread the day, there is the will for war within the federation, and its industry gears for full war... quantity is quality in itself, when you outnumber your openents and can replace every loss inflicted two to one... many like my that been speaking off a peace full solotion to this dilemma, do it couse if there is war, there wont be any winners, only loosers
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#147 - 2013-03-12 16:32:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Simon Louvaki
ColonelNick wrote:
After reading this discussion, i have but one question to everyone.

Where was this "Give Caldari Prime back to the Caldari people peacefully" sentiment, BEFORE the war started. It was no where. Because no one saw consequence for not returning it. We had to force it. We had to twist their arms. Now that they are twisted, they shout "why cant this be peaceful... we value peace and are against futher violence". It is merely a whine from those who lost. Like children.


With all do respect Colonel, Home has always been at the back of Caldari minds but rarely in the forefront. You ask why was there none of this talk about returning Home before the attack? The answer is because the State never made any strides for the procurement of Home before circumstance thrust it back into full view of the Caldari people.

If you disagree with the above statement, do point me to evidence to the contrary.

We didn't have to force the return of home by force, Heth chose that route for us. The peaceful pursuit of Home was never given a chance.

ColonelNick wrote:
They had their chance to do ALL of the suggestions here BEFORE we retook our Fatherland. Now their words of peace mean nothing to us, because we know that behind the smile, is a sharpened knife. They merely seek to weaken us.


As said above. there were no attempts by the CPD to do regain Home prior to war, no demands, no talks.

ColonelNick wrote:

Enough with these pointless discussions on sharing the system. Caldari Meritoracy forbids such things.We earned it by right of conquest. We deserve it by the same right.


Meritocracy has nothing to do with sharing the system, and has never forbid such things. What it does forbid, however, is nepotism and rank gained without merit, something that fits the Heth regime perfectly.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
ColonelNick
Providence Guard
#148 - 2013-03-13 01:19:45 UTC
"Home has always been at the back of Caldari minds but rarely in the forefront."

So you speak for all Caldari people because you know exactly whats on every Caldari mind in New Eden? It's been in the forefront of my mind ever since I learned the meaning behind my first words.

"As said above. there were no attempts by the CPD to do regain Home prior to war, no demands, no talks."

You are correct on this part. But my point was for those who are speaking from the Gallente point of view for the system to be shared under CONCORD and the titan returned peacefully, they were never active about it before we took it from them. And the CPD was founded very, very shortly before the war started. A golden opportunity presented itself and we took action, to not let this chance slip from grasp. You really think the Gallente would even consider a peaceful resolution with CONCORD still online? I have high doubts of that having any real chance of success.

"Meritocracy has nothing to do with sharing the system, and has never forbid such things. What it does forbid, however, is nepotism and rank gained without merit, something that fits the Heth regime perfectly. "

Power should be awarded to those who earn it. We earned Caldari prime, they don't get to vote and say we didn't, that we were wrong and that CONCORD should have it to make everyone happy. If they want it back, they should have to fight like we did for it.

As for Heth, his power was earned through the Caldari Constructions riot. From that chain of events did he show us the disease of Gallentean decadence. The Heth Administration has done more for our people than the CEP has done in the past century. He restored the true Caldari way of life. The state is better with him, than without him. Some would argue, most would agree.


I suppose the Federation is winning some of our capsuleers and citizens with their Anti-Heth statements from Blaque and other such individuals. Pitting us against each other and throwing the state into chaos. They are laughing in their chairs that we have this much internal conflict.

I for one do not wish to fight my fellow Caldarians any more than you do, Simon-Haan. I regret that this is not the case for all of my brothers and sisters in the state. If we don't come together, sooner rather than later, a dark day will dawn on the state. I pray we can avoid that.

Respectfully
-ColonelNick
CEO, Providence Guard

ColonelNick, CEO, Providence Guard, Callsign: "Codeine"
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#149 - 2013-03-13 02:06:47 UTC
ColonelNick wrote:


So you speak for all Caldari people because you know exactly whats on every Caldari mind in New Eden? It's been in the forefront of my mind ever since I learned the meaning behind my first words.


I can trace my family line back to the decks of Tovil-Tobba's carrier Colonel. There weren't many days in which I didn't hear about The Return from my father. That doesn't change the fact that there wasn't significant outcry from the general populace or the CEP to return Home to the State before the outbreak of hostilities.

ColonelNick wrote:

You are correct on this part. But my point was for those who are speaking from the Gallente point of view for the system to be shared under CONCORD and the titan returned peacefully, they were never active about it before we took it from them. And the CPD was founded very, very shortly before the war started. A golden opportunity presented itself and we took action, to not let this chance slip from grasp. You really think the Gallente would even consider a peaceful resolution with CONCORD still online? I have high doubts of that having any real chance of success.


There was no reason for those in the Federation to advocate the return of Home prior to this because we were not actively demanding it. I will never relinquish or advocate the return of Home to the Gallente Federation, but I do condemn the finger pointing and attempted shedding of blame by those who provoked war rather than seeking a solution that isn't destroying our State.

As for if I believe if the Federation would have given peace a chance had CONCORD not gone offline. No, why would they? we attacked them. The State would have responded the same if the situations in this hypothetical were switched.

ColonelNick wrote:

Power should be awarded to those who earn it. We earned Caldari prime, they don't get to vote and say we didn't, that we were wrong and that CONCORD should have it to make everyone happy. If they want it back, they should have to fight like we did for it.


Power should be awarded to those who show the ability to wield it wisely, not by those who seize it by whatever means necessary. History has shown time and time again through the rise and fall of Kingdoms and Empires that just because one can sieze power doesn't mean that they have earned it, or are capable of wielding it. Heth is a text book example of what happens when a man obtains power and allows it to control him and not the other way around. I'm tired of the senseless death Colonel, and I refuse to further indulge this egotistical game of interstellar 'Come at me bro'.

ColonelNick wrote:

As for Heth, his power was earned through the Caldari Constructions riot. From that chain of events did he show us the disease of Gallentean decadence. The Heth Administration has done more for our people than the CEP has done in the past century. He restored the true Caldari way of life. The state is better with him, than without him. Some would argue, most would agree.


Heth went from a construction worker to a power player by being bankrolled by someone who conveniently took over Caldari Constructions under uncertain circumstances. He didn't climb the corporate ranks; it was given to him, and that does not denote merit. To further that, hes now turning on workers who issued the same complaints he did during the Constructions riot, only this time, KK isn't waiting until hostility is shown before murdering its own citizens.

It was wrong then and remains wrong now. Heth has no creditability as long as he allows the murder of State citizens, and no matter if one wish's to accept it or not, people are getting tired of him.

That day is coming regadrless Colonel. Our unity will not be payed

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#150 - 2013-03-13 02:06:58 UTC
ColonelNick wrote:

I suppose the Federation is winning some of our capsuleers and citizens with their Anti-Heth statements from Blaque and other such individuals. Pitting us against each other and throwing the state into chaos. They are laughing in their chairs that we have this much internal conflict.


This has been brewing long before Blaque even thought about opening his mouth. The Federation is indeed laughing, because Heth is beginning to reap the sour bounty of his harvest.

ColonelNick wrote:

I for one do not wish to fight my fellow Caldarians any more than you do, Simon-Haan. I regret that this is not the case for all of my brothers and sisters in the state. If we don't come together, sooner rather than later, a dark day will dawn on the state. I pray we can avoid that.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#151 - 2013-03-13 03:48:23 UTC
"We will return"

Not the first thing I was taught, but the second, after the name of Admiral Yakiya Tovil-Toba. I don't know where you were brought up, Louvaki-haan, but 'We Will Return' and 'Never Again' were at the core of my childhood. The very first Civics lesson I attented focused on why our Capital was called "New Caldari Prime" and not "Caldari Prime" - that lesson was drummed into me. Even when talking with my Gallente friends, I can't quite bring myself to call Home by any other name.

So, after two centuries of this, it really shouldn't have been a surprise when we did, indeed, return.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
ColonelNick
Providence Guard
#152 - 2013-03-13 04:49:17 UTC
"but I do condemn the finger pointing and attempted shedding of blame by those who provoked war rather than seeking a solution that isn't destroying our State."

So the people who provoked the war the first time shouldn't be shed of blame either, by that logic. They forced us out. We forced our way back in. Fair is fair.

"Power should be awarded to those who show the ability to wield it wisely, "

It is simply your opinion Heth is using his power unwisely. Theres classified information that proves he has nothing to do with these killings. What i can tell you about that is it has something to do with Sleeper tech and the Cloners (Immortal Soldiers) the state and other empires have been training.

Ill send you the NeoCom link (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Sirens_of_Fear_and_Sense_(Chronicle))
Theres a reason Heth has ordered their immediate "Removal" from the armed forces.

The killings are not of Heths doing.



We can discuss this and have differing opinions all day, Louvaki-Haan, but at the end of the day its the CEP who decides to remove Heth or not. Not us. And these riots are doing nothing but ripping the state in half.

Respectfully
-ColonelNick
CEO, Providence Guard

ColonelNick, CEO, Providence Guard, Callsign: "Codeine"
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#153 - 2013-03-13 05:05:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Simon Louvaki
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
"We will return"

Not the first thing I was taught, but the second, after the name of Admiral Yakiya Tovil-Toba. I don't know where you were brought up, Louvaki-haan, but 'We Will Return' and 'Never Again' were at the core of my childhood. The very first Civics lesson I attented focused on why our Capital was called "New Caldari Prime" and not "Caldari Prime" - that lesson was drummed into me. Even when talking with my Gallente friends, I can't quite bring myself to call Home by any other name.

So, after two centuries of this, it really shouldn't have been a surprise when we did, indeed, return.


Tuulinen-haan,

My mother was a Khanid and I was born and raised in the Kingdom as an extradite. My introduction to the Caldari State proper wasn't until my mid adolescence when I returned with my father.

Please do correct me if I'm wrong Pieter, but despite always holding Home close to our hearts there was still no significant movement to return it to our hands, militarily nor diplomatically. The CEP did not breach diplomatic bridges with the Federation and while I always heard talk (often after much alcohol) there was still never any real political movement to ensure that we would indeed return, not until Heth that is.

We were told that we would return. No one told us when or how.

Should the Federation be surprised that we made good on our promise? well..thats a bit of a loaded question in my book. After two centuries of icy diplomatic relations with no significant movement on our part to make good on that promise it doesn't surprise me that our promise was forgotten. The Gallente are not Caldari, that much is very clear, and they don't seem to retain a collective memory in the sense that we do.

As I said, as long as I am able I will do everything within my power to ensure the loss of Home is never repeated. However, after what I've seen...after what we've seen...I will not sit back and pretend that current regime is entirely blameless. It does us little to have Home if we have no chance of keeping it.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#154 - 2013-03-13 05:23:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Simon Louvaki
ColonelNick wrote:


So the people who provoked the war the first time shouldn't be shed of blame either, by that logic. They forced us out. We forced our way back in. Fair is fair.


Correct, they shouldn't. The Templis Dragonaurs and the U-Nats should not be exonerated for their crimes. Unfortunately the U-Nats are not currently in power in the Federation and there is convincing evidence that suggests the Templis Dragonaurs are in positions of power amoung the Heth Administration.

ColonelNick wrote:

It is simply your opinion Heth is using his power unwisely. Theres classified information that proves he has nothing to do with these killings. What i can tell you about that is it has something to do with Sleeper tech and the Cloners (Immortal Soldiers) the state and other empires have been training.


Correct. it is my opinion that breaking Caldari law and the murder Caldari citizens is misusing the power vested in him by the Caldari people and the Chief Executive Panel.

ColonelNick wrote:
Ill send you the NeoCom link (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Sirens_of_Fear_and_Sense_(Chronicle))
Theres a reason Heth has ordered their immediate "Removal" from the armed forces.

The killings are not of Heths doing.


I believe we reference different things, colonel.

ColonelNick wrote:

We can discuss this and have differing opinions all day, Louvaki-Haan, but at the end of the day its the CEP who decides to remove Heth or not. Not us. And these riots are doing nothing but ripping the state in half.


Your very correct Colonel, for now it is the CEP's decision; I hope for all our sakes they act soon. Also, a riot is by definition the violent disturbance of peace by a crowd. Tibus Heth made his introduction by igniting a violent revolt of workers against the deplorable managment of Caldari Constructions. That was a riot. The non-violent protest at the CEP HQ in which Home Guard force opened fire and kill over a thousand workers on defenseless transports was not .

Respectfully sir, I believe we may simply be at an impasse on Heth.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#155 - 2013-03-13 09:27:36 UTC
I was raised in a very ordinary Suuvee creche, Simon. Trust me - we learned about each of the Admiral's engagements over that week. which of his ships died and where. We covered the final battle over Gallente Prime in great detail - as a ten year old boy I won a merit prize for correctly naming each of the so-called 'essential personnel' who stayed with the Kairola when she went down.

It was always made clear to me that, unless diplomacy succeeded, we were going to take the first chance we had at getting it back. Only the very survival of the State would be an unfair trade.

In the aftermath of Malkalen I don't think that any of us thought we would ever take a Gallentean's word as anything other than meaningless dross ever again. It felt like the ultimate betrayal and the end of all diplomacy. Thankfully that proved not to be the case - but still, it is impossible for me, who watched the events unfold as a Peace and Order cadet, not to think back to my memory of the events and bring the emotions I felt with them.

I don't know if the Executor should go or not. I don't think I'm fit to make that decision. I would like to see an end to war, but I'm dubious about buying peace from the Gallente. Last time it was Caldari Prime. This time they're talking about us cedeing the CEWPA warzone to them. They demand Heth be removed. They'll want CPD officials tried too, no doubt - and perhaps senior Navy figures.

Where does it end?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#156 - 2013-03-13 13:16:11 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:

Please do correct me if I'm wrong Pieter, but despite always holding Home close to our hearts there was still no significant movement to return it to our hands, militarily nor diplomatically. The CEP did not breach diplomatic bridges with the Federation and while I always heard talk (often after much alcohol) there was still never any real political movement to ensure that we would indeed return, not until Heth that is.

We were told that we would return. No one told us when or how.


Louvaki-haan,

I respect your stance but unfortunately I must take issue. We were not told that we would return. We, as a people, vowed that we would return. We did not say when or how because that would remain for time to tell and is not information you provide to your enemies if you are wise.

We fled Caldari Prime during a sustained orbital bombardment, we did not leave by choice. After we fled, a tenuous pact was signed that created a cease fire between us. Home was not pursued because the conditions for the peace we held in place were that the sovereignty lines stood as they were, Caldari Prime was lost to us.

You are correct in that we often desired in our hearts to claim it back but the Caldari do not often move by popular sentiment. Some of the darkest parts of our history are times when we have. This is the reason the State was established as it was, to let our minds be pitted one against another and our sentiments weighed for merit by opposing sentiments. The reason you see no public declaration or attempt to reclaim Caldari Prime is because it was always understood that the cost in doing so would be too great.

That changed when Executor Heth took it upon himself after strategically gaining control over the State's economy and military to reclaim Caldari Prime and establish this current stand off.

The past cannot be undone. All we can do is not lose hope for the future and strive to make the most of what lies before us. Our opinions of Executor Heth aside, the situation exists and must be dealt with to the greatest of our ability. Is there a chance we could lose Caldari Prime again? Yes. Is it for certain? No. That is why we work to protect what we do have and pray that eventually logic and peace win the day, despite the odds against such a thing happening.

~Malcolm Khross
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#157 - 2013-03-13 13:19:58 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:


I don't know if the Executor should go or not. I don't think I'm fit to make that decision. I would like to see an end to war, but I'm dubious about buying peace from the Gallente. Last time it was Caldari Prime. This time they're talking about us cedeing the CEWPA warzone to them. They demand Heth be removed. They'll want CPD officials tried too, no doubt - and perhaps senior Navy figures.

Where does it end?


Wisdom.

We share a desire for the war to end, on both sides of the conflict. Yet you are correct, we cannot and will not buy peace from our enemy. If peace is to occur and be sustained it will have to come from a mutual agreement from both sides. We will not sacrifice more than we must and we will not allow the Federation to dictate to us the terms of peace.

~Malcolm Khross
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#158 - 2013-03-13 18:06:16 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

Where does it end?


It has to begin before it can end Tullinen-haan. We may not know the future, but we can shape it if we so chose to seize it.

Both you and Khross-haan have given me much to reflect upon and I can only trust the State will make the right choice in the end.

Uaaka, Kirjuuns.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
#159 - 2013-03-13 18:53:22 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:
ColonelNick wrote:
Where was this "Give Caldari Prime back to the Caldari people peacefully" sentiment, BEFORE the war started.

With all do respect Colonel, Home has always been at the back of Caldari minds but rarely in the forefront.
Hmm, I thought I had linked to my "Negotiate Return of Caldari Prime to The State" petition, create days before the war broke out, quite thoroughly in the OP. And yes, I am ethnicly Gallente.

As an example of what Mr. Louvaki was speaking about, look at post #5 by "Stitcher" Hakatain, in response of my pre-war petition.

In any case, this discussion is getting rather sidetracked sometimes. I request more focus on how to reach a future peace.

Coordination Channel for Consolidated Space Rescue Cooperation

Open Letter to the Aidonis Foundation Directorate
Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
#160 - 2013-03-16 00:41:32 UTC
The situation in Luminaire is slowly heading towards the worst case scenario. The voices of the doves are awefully quiet...

Coordination Channel for Consolidated Space Rescue Cooperation

Open Letter to the Aidonis Foundation Directorate