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[Resolved] Primed for Peace - A Petition to New Eden
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Anslo
Scope Works
#101 - 2013-02-13 18:33:47 UTC
Emile Belfleur wrote:
Sharing a planet is a poor idea, one that has time and again proven to be culturally erosive.

I am still of the opinion that the best solution would be to cede Caldari Prime in its entirety to the Caldari, allow them a certain zone of control around the planet, allow them to construct a stargate nearby connecting them to the rest of the State, and ban all traffic and communication between Gallente and Caldari Prime. Then, after determining future and separate venues of colonization, to pursue a policy of mutual segregation and non-interaction with each other from there on.

When you have a neighbor you are never going to get along with, the best way of addressing the problem is to grow a tall, thick hedge between your properties. This allows each of you to go on living your lives as though the other party doesn't exist.

That is exactly what's needed here.


It's the politicians who don't get along. Most baseliners and a lot of eggers get along just fine. Pieter over there and I get into all sorts of zany adventures.

Hell we could have an action show staring us and inspire a generation of people to embrace each other's culture by our broadcasted asshattery.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Emile Belfleur
Solar Zouaves
#102 - 2013-02-13 18:47:38 UTC
Anslo wrote:
It's the politicians who don't get along. Most baseliners and a lot of eggers get along just fine. Pieter over there and I get into all sorts of zany adventures.

Hell we could have an action show staring us and inspire a generation of people to embrace each other's culture by our broadcasted asshattery.

It's not just politicians and capsuleers, I'm afraid. The hostile relations between our cultures could never have gone on for as long as they have without considerable support within the population.

I'm sorry, but I really can't envision an end to this conflict that does not involve a mutual closing of the borders between us.
Anslo
Scope Works
#103 - 2013-02-13 18:55:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Anslo
Emile Belfleur wrote:
It's not just politicians and capsuleers, I'm afraid. The hostile relations between our cultures could never have gone on for as long as they have without considerable support within the population.

I'm sorry, but I really can't envision an end to this conflict that does not involve a mutual closing of the borders between us.


Boy you're a ball of optimism. We don't agree with everything the Minmatar do in their culture, but do we close our borders off with them? Saying that, "Oh we're just not a good match so we should isolate ourselves from each other COMPLETELY" is extremely defeatist thinking.

And I know plenty of people with close friends, relatives, and mates who happen to Caldari and Gallente. Culture didn't stop them from starting families did it? It's called tolerance. I thought that's what we Gallenteans were all about? If the Caldari want to be Caldari, let them. It's ******* stupid to just drop everything and wall us off from them because we disagree on some crap.

Seriously the more I hear talk from some people in the Fed, the more I wonder how we survived for so long. We're a great culture but gods damn do we have so many stupid thought processes. And why the hell are we so prideful to the point that we simply "can't tolerate the Caldari?" It's been how many ******* years since the war? We, both Caldari AND Gallentean, need to grow up and get over ourselves. Let the Caldari be Caldari and have their bloody planet, and the Caldari can then talk to us about trade agreements or some such to further foster relations. Hell even a jointly held STATION could be a good step in the right direction.

But this whole defeatist attitude? This black and white bull ****? No. That's not what the Federation is about, my home isn't like that, and you better damn well stop painting it like it is.

Oh he's just an idealist, he's young, he's foolish!
No, what's foolish is being an immature **** of a race and just ignoring each other like children when we could work together to do crazy crap. Colonize Anoikis, break past the barrier surrounding New Eden to explore, hell even research our damn ORIGINS. And if YOU (not YOU you, but anyone in general) think some pride/face preserving bullshit of a war killing millions of people for an event that happened so long ago is more important than preserving our races and working together, congratulations, you (again, not YOU Emile) are possibly one of the top ten stupidest people I've ever met.

Gods DAMMIT.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Emile Belfleur
Solar Zouaves
#104 - 2013-02-13 20:13:00 UTC
Anslo wrote:
We don't agree with everything the Minmatar do in their culture, but do we close our borders off with them?

Unfortunately not, and that's another foreign entanglement we should never have gone into in the first place. It's done entirely more harm than good to all parties involved. That whole affair is money out the window, and has been so all along. It's not even doing them a service - if they want independence, they have to learn to manage on their own.

Anslo wrote:
Saying that, "Oh we're just not a good match so we should isolate ourselves from each other COMPLETELY" is extremely defeatist thinking.

It's not being defeatist, it's being selective about who you socialize with. The Federation is perfectly capable of self-sufficiency, and if other societies aren't, it's not our job to prop them up. We have many enough issues to deal with domestically - we don't also need to associate with people who are culturally incompatible with ourselves. The more people would realize that, the less headaches we are going to have.

Really, the kind of argumentation you display represents exactly the kind of thinking that has led to the decline of actual Gallente culture over the past few centuries. It is something to avoid.
Anslo
Scope Works
#105 - 2013-02-13 20:17:58 UTC
Emile Belfleur wrote:
Unfortunately not, and that's another foreign entanglement we should never have gone into in the first place. It's done entirely more harm than good to all parties involved. That whole affair is money out the window, and has been so all along. It's not even doing them a service - if they want independence, they have to learn to manage on their own.


Which they're doing. I liked that we helped them but I agree our culture saturated their's a bit. But it's getting fixed. Besides, that doesn't justify being xenophobic nut jobs.

Anslo wrote:
It's not being defeatist, it's being selective about who you socialize with. The Federation is perfectly capable of self-sufficiency, and if other societies aren't, it's not our job to prop them up. We have many enough issues to deal with domestically - we don't also need to associate with people who are culturally incompatible with ourselves. The more people would realize that, the less headaches we are going to have.


And when the hell did I say anything about propping up? I'm not friends with the people I know to prop them up, we prop each other up, we help each other, and we're all the BETTER for it. Just because you think helping the Minmatar is a waste of money doesn't mean it is. And what the hell is with this recent jump in centrist thinking? What happened to being a melting pot, welcoming people with open arms? When the flying **** did we become racist and hide it behind a veil of 'logical reasoning' that a 5 year old could pick apart?

Quote:
Really, the kind of argumentation you display represents exactly the kind of thinking that has led to the decline of actual Gallente culture over the past few centuries. It is something to avoid.


Gallente culture is what it is because of the immigrants we have. We're a melting pot, a big ******* beacon showing that cultures can mix and create a completely new culture. The greatest parts come together to make a glorious whole.

You don't like it? Leave. Too many right wing nutters around here anyway.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Emile Belfleur
Solar Zouaves
#106 - 2013-02-13 20:51:03 UTC
Anslo wrote:
And when the hell did I say anything about propping up? I'm not friends with the people I know to prop them up, we prop each other up, we help each other, and we're all the BETTER for it. Just because you think helping the Minmatar is a waste of money doesn't mean it is. And what the hell is with this recent jump in centrist thinking? What happened to being a melting pot, welcoming people with open arms? When the flying **** did we become racist and hide it behind a veil of 'logical reasoning' that a 5 year old could pick apart?

Racist? I would like to have it noted that I in no way think of the Caldari as being racially - or for that matter culturally - inferior to myself or to other Gallente. Nor do I have any desire to see them subjugated in any way. What I want is for our respective cultures to keep out of each other's business, completely.

Honestly, it's a view that appears to be shared by a lot of Caldari, too. If we lock the door on them, they're hardly going to stand outside it and weep. They're going to lock their own door and live happily ever after. If our respective societies had just had the sense to do this in the first place, a lot of needless bloodshed would have been avoided.

Anslo wrote:
Gallente culture is what it is because of the immigrants we have. We're a melting pot, a big ******* beacon showing that cultures can mix and create a completely new culture. The greatest parts come together to make a glorious whole.

You don't like it? Leave. Too many right wing nutters around here anyway.

I have two comments to this:

First, you are completely right - I don't like the fact that the cradle of my culture has been turned into the circus you call a melting pot. I do, however, recognize that it has happened, and that the damage may by now be irreversible.

Second, taking the above into consideration, I have left. Or, more precisely, my ancestors did. Rather than watching their own culture and way of life disintegrating around them, they sold their properties and left Gallente Prime. And they named their new home Solitude for a reason.

I confess, there are times I wonder if it would not be better for us to simply cut our losses and secede entirely. The only thing preventing it, I think, is noblesse oblige.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#107 - 2013-02-13 20:54:46 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

That century was a century in which you continued to occupy our Homeworld. It may have seemed like it was all going swimmingly from your end, but clearly things were not so cut and dried from ours.

The disposition of Caldari Prime will have to be settled through diplomacy and with an eye to a solution that is amenable to both parties in the long-term or else the situation will continue to be one of the slighted side biding their time.

There is, literally, no acceptable solution that does not return Caldari Prime to the hands of the true sons and daughters of the Winds. The sooner that the Federation accepts this and starts talking about what they need to forge a last peace, the sooner we might actually achieve one.


Unfortunately, I can not speak for a lot of people, but before the assault on Luminaire I was perfectly inclined to support the return of Caldari Prime to the Caldari State through diplomatic means.

Then the CPD ruined every chance the State had to get a resolution on the matter. They may think they have their planet back when it is actually rife with resistance, violence, war, and further contestations and griefs from both sides.

What impresses me is the ability of most patriots to continue pleading their case after such a blatant insult to the whole Yulai community. Especially speaking about diplomacy - with veiled threats behind - when the State (or the CPD ?) demonstrated that their word is worth nothing.

And then they speak about the Amarrian threat. Right. Not that it does not exist, of course, but speaking about hypocrisy...

Please note though that besides my cynical words, I am glad that people are at least trying to be reasonable. The DMZ idea sounds insightful and interesting enough to be pursued.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#108 - 2013-02-13 21:07:30 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
My advice for handling the current indigent Federation population on Home would be to jointly compensate them for their losses and transship them elsewhere in the Federation, or offer them the ability to gain Corporate citizenship like any other State citizen.


A little like the Caldari when they had to leave their planet I guess ?

I guess gallenteans unlike caldari, do not care about the planets they have spent their lives on ?

Anslo wrote:
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
I have a crazy idea! Let's ask the people living on Caldari Prime which flag they want to live under and then both sides have to accept their decision.


She has a point...when it comes down to it, what do the planet's baseliners want or get out of this?..It's not just about Gallente or Caldari people now, it's about those born and raised on that world too.

I mean they aren't even the same people who forced the Caldari off it, it's a completely new generation, both pure Gallenteans and pure Caldari.


I am not sure that you will get an unanimous answer from them.

Then what ? Giving the majority the right to dispose of the planet for the rest ?

Giving to the elite the right to dispose of it ?

How will you make everyone agree on the method used?
Anslo
Scope Works
#109 - 2013-02-13 21:09:46 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
I am not sure that you will get an unanimous answer from them.

Then what ? Giving the majority the right to dispose of the planet for the rest ?

Giving to the elite the right to dispose of it ?

How will you make everyone agree on the method used?


Look I didn't say it'd be easy, just the right thing to do.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#110 - 2013-02-13 21:20:19 UTC
You might well end up in the same endless discussions that both parties are already having. I too would be interested as well to hear a little more from them, but I would not base every hope on it.
Anslo
Scope Works
#111 - 2013-02-13 21:24:14 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
You might well end up in the same endless discussions that both parties are already having. I too would be interested as well to hear a little more from them, but I would not base every hope on it.


It has to start somewhere. Being pessimistic and saying it'll just end up an endless discussion isn't good enough reason to not try. I might be stepping out of line when I say this but, if Otro Gariushi was still around (and may he rest in infinite peace), this wouldn't be an issue. He was level headed. He'd a sat everyone down and got it done.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#112 - 2013-02-13 21:35:54 UTC
No, Miss Farel, I didn't advocate starving them, bombing them and then shooting down their transports as they try to flee.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#113 - 2013-02-14 01:51:11 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:

Gentlemen such recriminations are pointless.

I think we all know who did what to whom and when.

Those in the State feel there is no path to peace that doesn't assure Caldari Primes status.

What can the Federation expect in return for the concession of Caldari Prime?


Great profit, and a stalwart ally.

Such is the hope I hold to.

Ma'dame Scherezad

I appreciate the sentiment but was hoping for something more tangible.

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#114 - 2013-02-14 02:19:38 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:

Ma'dame Scherezad

I appreciate the sentiment but was hoping for something more tangible.


Perhaps a better question would be 'what does the Federation want'?

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
#115 - 2013-02-14 02:50:27 UTC
Wow, my OP is over 4 days old and the planet has not changed hands, unlike last time. I'll take that as a good sign.
I thank all for their participation in the discussion that followed.
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
War is a natural process in the evolution of our race. It spurs new inventions, new methods.[..] The wars that are simmering now are wars that have not been allowed to reach their conclusion. The suffering of all involved is prolonged because no one will stand back and let the conflicting parties (namely the big four) fight it out.
I doubt there would be no innovation without war, but even if it were so, I think I would be willing to accept that consequence. As far a I know, peace is the conclusion of war, and it does not have to come about through dominance of one side. But you may be right that a relatively short total war might be better than a relatively perpetual one in the current form, but there's no way to be sure.
Nicolas Merovech wrote:
I offer my name for this petition.
I have already filed mine, I suggest everyone to send their own. I think it might be even more effective than one list of signatures. You are free to use my version, of course.
Anslo wrote:
Now how do we get Roden and Heth in the same room for it? HAH!
Well, you'd be surprised how much nagging can accomplish. If people like Merovech send in their petition them not once, but weekly, then they might just at least pretend to give it a try to make it stop.Twisted
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Which is why this dicussion has been interesting but fruitless.
...for the moment, perhaps, although, who can tell, maybe butterfly wings will cause a hurricane. We do not know what is whispered in the halls of power.
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Who cares what the people who moved in after my ancestors were driven out want?
I do. And the people you mentioned, and more importantly, their decendants who had no choice in what their homeworld would be, and likely a lot of other people as well.

I hope that at least some of you are prodding your nation's or CONCORDS representatives to at least join this discussion. They are the ones who can formally shake hands, after all.

Coordination Channel for Consolidated Space Rescue Cooperation

Open Letter to the Aidonis Foundation Directorate
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#116 - 2013-02-14 02:56:52 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Ma'dame Scherezad

I appreciate the sentiment but was hoping for something more tangible.


My deepest apologies, sir. I had made mention of my suggestion earlier on in the discussion; my reply was based upon it.

Our two peoples value profit, and we are both possessed of a shrewd sense of financial acumen. While war is a profitable business, it would profit us far greater to join together and turn outwards as partners in trade and allies against the common foes we share; the rimward alliances and conglomerates that plague us both. In so doing, we would deepen our mutual profits greatly, as well as secure our borders and end this unfortunate war.

I can think of no better meeting-place or point-of-contact between our two cultures than a State-owned Caldari Prime, but it is perhaps too early to suggest such a notion. For now, I encourage mutual business ventures and the co-operation of our peoples against our common foes. We are not so foolhardy as to assault your homeworld with our Titan, for with it we would lose our own once more, and we could little bear that stain of dishonour again save in the most dire of circumstances.

Peace between us, Mr Syagrius. In our lifetime. It is my hope.
kul Shaishi
Yurai-Tenshin Zaibatsu
#117 - 2013-02-14 20:07:44 UTC
I offer my name for this petition.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#118 - 2013-02-14 21:03:42 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:
You might well end up in the same endless discussions that both parties are already having. I too would be interested as well to hear a little more from them, but I would not base every hope on it.


It has to start somewhere. Being pessimistic and saying it'll just end up an endless discussion isn't good enough reason to not try. I might be stepping out of line when I say this but, if Otro Gariushi was still around (and may he rest in infinite peace), this wouldn't be an issue. He was level headed. He'd a sat everyone down and got it done.


Wait, I never said it was not to be tried...

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
No, Miss Farel, I didn't advocate starving them, bombing them and then shooting down their transports as they try to flee.


Oh, that is a relief then.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#119 - 2013-02-15 03:54:21 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:

Ma'dame Scherezad

I appreciate the sentiment but was hoping for something more tangible.


Perhaps a better question would be 'what does the Federation want'?

Msr. Louvaki.

A fair question and one I have no authority to treat.

Speaking however as a private person with some understanding of the realpolitik within the Federation, I would recommend a token for a token. Perhaps some concessions related to the Galatian population of Caldari Prime.

While I don't advocate it personaly a... friend recently suggested that the transfer of a temperate planet deep within State territory, but in close proximity to vital centers of governance in commerce, would be acceptable.

Scherezad wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:
Ma'dame Scherezad

I appreciate the sentiment but was hoping for something more tangible.


My deepest apologies, sir. I had made mention of my suggestion earlier on in the discussion; my reply was based upon it.

Our two peoples value profit, and we are both possessed of a shrewd sense of financial acumen. While war is a profitable business, it would profit us far greater to join together and turn outwards as partners in trade and allies against the common foes we share; the rimward alliances and conglomerates that plague us both. In so doing, we would deepen our mutual profits greatly, as well as secure our borders and end this unfortunate war.

I can think of no better meeting-place or point-of-contact between our two cultures than a State-owned Caldari Prime, but it is perhaps too early to suggest such a notion. For now, I encourage mutual business ventures and the co-operation of our peoples against our common foes. We are not so foolhardy as to assault your homeworld with our Titan, for with it we would lose our own once more, and we could little bear that stain of dishonour again save in the most dire of circumstances.

Peace between us, Mr Syagrius. In our lifetime. It is my hope.

Ma'dame Scherezad.

I cannot find fault with your reasoning. I think your assessment regarding the benifits of normalized relations between our factions is correct. Forgive my oversight of your previous explanation, I appreciate your consideration in restating it.



“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2013-02-15 03:58:47 UTC
I have always advocated for peace between the State and the Federation. I may be a loyal Gallentean, but the Caldari people and their spirit and willpower have created a very nice home for themselves in my heart.

This thread has made it very clear that many capsuleers, both Gallente and Caldari hope for peace between our two nations. It becomes very clear now that the main issue are our respective governments. The tyrant Heth seems to be interested in aggression in order to maintain absolute power, meanwhile the Federal Government is being very stubborn, refusing to give any lee-way on the pleas of the Caldari, both for good and illegitimate reasons.

As a Gallentean, I feel that it is absolutely necessary that Caldari Prime, rest in the total control of the Caldari. Imagining yourself in the position of the Caldari is enough to justify this claim. Imagine your home world, being under the jurisdiction of another power. Imagine your culture being purged, your people being reformed to the standards of another. I can understand why the Caldari so desperately want their homeworld back, however I do not advocate for a aggressive action by either party.

I feel that CONCORD can actually do something here. The demilitarization of Luminnaire could be observed easily by CONCORD. This would be the first step in peace talks. No titan's prepared to obliterate planets, no supercarriers ominously moving towards stations, just commercial and cargo ships.

It's far too late for the Gallente and Caldari to be one nation again, few people can even remember when we were one nation. However I feel the return of Caldari prime to full Caldari control would be the first step in creating peace and possibly a prosperous alliance between the State and the Federation.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!