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[Resolved] Primed for Peace - A Petition to New Eden
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Anslo
Scope Works
#81 - 2013-02-13 14:48:00 UTC
Malcolm Khross wrote:
You're going to get mixed responses on this. As I stated, hostility and enmity make concession a bitter pill to swallow. Some will not tolerate Gallente presence on the Caldari homeworld at all.


Even if it meant an end to the war? An end to a few million people dying?

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#82 - 2013-02-13 15:06:49 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Malcolm Khross wrote:
You're going to get mixed responses on this. As I stated, hostility and enmity make concession a bitter pill to swallow. Some will not tolerate Gallente presence on the Caldari homeworld at all.


Even if it meant an end to the war? An end to a few million people dying?


Unfortunately.

~Malcolm Khross
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#83 - 2013-02-13 17:33:48 UTC
Anslo wrote:

On the heels of that, I wanna ask the Caldari in this discussion (not Silas, because we already saw your opinion about this is worth less that a pile of Fedo excretions) their opinion;

What if, by some miracle, the Gallente came forward and said, "You know what? You're right. Let's talk about your Homeworld, and let's share that planet while letting you live the way you want to live." Talks happen, and the planet is ceded to the State, while allowing Gallenteans that live there, to live there. Top that with some form of joint governmental body since, as mentioned before, none of the eight Mega's can really lay claim to the planet as a whole.

Would that be alright in your opinion? Or is it a horrible nightmare of a thought?


It's going to be difficult to justify cedeing any part of the Homeworld. Whilst I might be motivated to accept such a deal as being better than what's now in place, to be honest, there would be a continuous push to 'finish the job'.

The problem here seems to be the belief that Home should be equally important to the Federation and the State. It isn't. Find something else to bargain for.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2013-02-13 17:36:07 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
The problem here seems to be the belief that Home should be equally important to the Federation and the State. It isn't. Find something else to bargain for.

I'd be perfectly willing to cede Caldari Prime if there wasn't ample evidence that the State would never stop at just one of the Federation's planets.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Anslo
Scope Works
#85 - 2013-02-13 17:38:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Anslo
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
It's going to be difficult to justify cedeing any part of the Homeworld. Whilst I might be motivated to accept such a deal as being better than what's now in place, to be honest, there would be a continuous push to 'finish the job'.

The problem here seems to be the belief that Home should be equally important to the Federation and the State. It isn't. Find something else to bargain for.


I don't know if ceding is even the right word. I'm not normally for politics and crap but I feel like this is important. So, I'mm a just speak plainly.

Caldari Prime is your homeworld, but there's a TON of Gallenteans living on it who may not be able to afford to go elsewhere. Caldari Prime is also in the middle of Luminaire, a Gallente Solar system. A joint governance between Cal and Gal might help simplify possibly rough diplomacy, at least until a 'finishing' idea can be completed. I'm just sayin', it'd be better than a Titan over the planet.

Andreus Ixiris wrote:
I'd be perfectly willing to cede Caldari Prime if there wasn't ample evidence that the State would never stop at just one of the Federation's planets.


And this. Caldari Prime is your planet, no questions asked. But we got a loooot of people down there that we'd wanna help care for during the transitional period. If that could happen and a truce be declared, I'd love to see a few Caldari ships flying next to Federation ships during patrols and NOT shooting each other, but flying in formation.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#86 - 2013-02-13 17:57:41 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
The problem here seems to be the belief that Home should be equally important to the Federation and the State. It isn't. Find something else to bargain for.

I'd be perfectly willing to cede Caldari Prime if there wasn't ample evidence that the State would never stop at just one of the Federation's planets.


What evidence is that may I ask? Was any other planet attacked prior to the start of the war? has the State ever eyed another Federation planet prior to the start of the war? Lets be serious here, there was one target. Only one. That was Caldari Prime and it was seized. Planets have traded sovereignty a dozen times over, Federation and Gallente, since the outbreak of militia warfare. If your 'evidence' lies there in, you might want to reconsider.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Nicolas Merovech
Doomheim
#87 - 2013-02-13 18:03:02 UTC
Regardless of how you may feel about who did what to start the Gallente-Caldari War, the reality of the situation is that it will not truly end until Caldari Prime is under Caldari control. This needless struggle has been perpetuated by infantile nationalism, which must be put aside if their is to be peace and cooperation.

I offer my name for this petition.

Dr. Nicolas A. Merovech, Ph. D, M.D.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#88 - 2013-02-13 18:06:14 UTC
My advice for handling the current indigent Federation population on Home would be to jointly compensate them for their losses and transship them elsewhere in the Federation, or offer them the ability to gain Corporate citizenship like any other State citizen.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Anslo
Scope Works
#89 - 2013-02-13 18:08:41 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
My advice for handling the current indigent Federation population on Home would be to jointly compensate them for their losses and transship them elsewhere in the Federation, or offer them the ability to gain Corporate citizenship like any other State citizen.


But not en masse like Heth tried right? Slow and steady and humanly?

If it was a joint operation to do it, I'd be good with it. Though I still kind of hold out for a joint settled world. A shared Gallente/Caldari planet would definitely be a symbol of progress and be good neutral territory for meeting. But hey, that's just me.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#90 - 2013-02-13 18:11:32 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
My advice for handling the current indigent Federation population on Home would be to jointly compensate them for their losses and transship them elsewhere in the Federation, or offer them the ability to gain Corporate citizenship like any other State citizen.


But not en masse like Heth tried right? Slow and steady and humanly?

If it was a joint operation to do it, I'd be good with it. Though I still kind of hold out for a joint settled world. A shared Gallente/Caldari planet would definitely be a symbol of progress and be good neutral territory for meeting. But hey, that's just me.


I am fine with doing the job properly and humanely.

And I'm also fine with a model world that is both Federation and State - I'd just rather that world wasn't our Homeworld.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Anslo
Scope Works
#91 - 2013-02-13 18:12:08 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
My advice for handling the current indigent Federation population on Home would be to jointly compensate them for their losses and transship them elsewhere in the Federation, or offer them the ability to gain Corporate citizenship like any other State citizen.


But not en masse like Heth tried right? Slow and steady and humanly?

If it was a joint operation to do it, I'd be good with it. Though I still kind of hold out for a joint settled world. A shared Gallente/Caldari planet would definitely be a symbol of progress and be good neutral territory for meeting. But hey, that's just me.


I am fine with doing the job properly and humanely.

And I'm also fine with a model world that is both Federation and State - I'd just rather that world wasn't our Homeworld.


Fair enough then. Now how do we get Roden and Heth in the same room for it? HAH!

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#92 - 2013-02-13 18:17:14 UTC
Which is why this dicussion has been interesting but fruitless.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2013-02-13 18:17:51 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:
What evidence is that may I ask? Was any other planet attacked prior to the start of the war? has the State ever eyed another Federation planet prior to the start of the war? Lets be serious here, there was one target. Only one. That was Caldari Prime and it was seized. Planets have traded sovereignty a dozen times over, Federation and Gallente, since the outbreak of militia warfare. If your 'evidence' lies there in, you might want to reconsider.

The State retook Caldari Prime in an act of unprovoked and unparalleled bloodshed which left hundreds of thousands dead, injured or homeless, and, at gunpoint, forced the Federation to sign a peace treaty ceding control of the planet. Then, unsatisfied with siezing control of Caldari Prime via the violation of nearly every treaty and legal document it had ever signed, the State started pushing into Placid and Essence as well, forcing the Federation to slave itself to the unwinnable rat race of the Empyrean War just to defend its systems.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#94 - 2013-02-13 18:19:58 UTC
I have a crazy idea! Let's ask the people living on Caldari Prime which flag they want to live under and then both sides have to accept their decision.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2013-02-13 18:22:30 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
I have a crazy idea! Let's ask the people living on Caldari Prime which flag they want to live under and then both sides have to accept their decision.

I know! It's not like there are tens of billions of enslaved Minmatar and Ealur in the Empire who aren't allowed to do precisely that, right?

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Anslo
Scope Works
#96 - 2013-02-13 18:23:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Anslo
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
I have a crazy idea! Let's ask the people living on Caldari Prime which flag they want to live under and then both sides have to accept their decision.


She has a point...when it comes down to it, what do the planet's baseliners want or get out of this?..It's not just about Gallente or Caldari people now, it's about those born and raised on that world too.

I mean they aren't even the same people who forced the Caldari off it, it's a completely new generation, both pure Gallenteans and pure Caldari.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#97 - 2013-02-13 18:23:31 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
I have a crazy idea! Let's ask the people living on Caldari Prime which flag they want to live under and then both sides have to accept their decision.


I have a crazy idea. Who cares what the people who moved in after my ancestors were driven out want?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Emile Belfleur
Solar Zouaves
#98 - 2013-02-13 18:30:25 UTC
Sharing a planet is a poor idea, one that has time and again proven to be culturally erosive.

I am still of the opinion that the best solution would be to cede Caldari Prime in its entirety to the Caldari, allow them a certain zone of control around the planet, allow them to construct a stargate nearby connecting them to the rest of the State, and ban all traffic and communication between Gallente and Caldari Prime. Then, after determining future and separate venues of colonization, to pursue a policy of mutual segregation and non-interaction with each other from there on.

When you have a neighbor you are never going to get along with, the best way of addressing the problem is to grow a tall, thick hedge between your properties. This allows each of you to go on living your lives as though the other party doesn't exist.

That is exactly what's needed here.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#99 - 2013-02-13 18:30:42 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
I know! It's not like there are tens of billions of enslaved Minmatar and Ealur in the Empire who aren't allowed to do precisely that, right?


Propaganda is fattening so I try not to eat too much of it.

We're are acting well within our rights established by CONCORD, thank you very much - and the Federation is just as much a signer of that treaty as we are, as are the Caldari. Even the Republic signed that treaty, though they seem to have trouble remembering it.

Stop acting like your hands are clean. They aren't. Nobody else's are either. When our slaves became citizens many left for the Republic. Most stayed right here. Point is, citizens made a choice, because citizens are allowed to do that. Are you saying that the people on Caldari Prime aren't worthy to be called citizens? Or do you consider them to be no better than property?

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#100 - 2013-02-13 18:31:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Simon Louvaki
Andreus Ixiris wrote:

The State retook Caldari Prime in an act of unprovoked and unparalleled bloodshed which left hundreds of thousands dead, injured or homeless, and, at gunpoint, forced the Federation to sign a peace treaty ceding control of the planet. Then, unsatisfied with siezing control of Caldari Prime via the violation of nearly every treaty and legal document it had ever signed, the State started pushing into Placid and Essence as well, forcing the Federation to slave itself to the unwinnable rat race of the Empyrean War just to defend its systems.


And was it not just a few weeks ago the Federation had seized every contested region outlined in the CONCORD sanctioned militia war powers act? Take it up with CONCORD if you have an issue with these sanctified actions, but the Federation hasn't resigned itself to 'just defending' itself by a long shot. The only planet the Caldari State demanded was Caldari Prime and as its been brought up so many times before, there was no peace treaty, there was a cease-fire. No peace agreement was ever reached and if were going to start complaining about the re-initiation of a war that never ended in the first place then we will never get anywhere.

Peace will never be obtained as long as this line of thinking pervades within our leadership.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb