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Jump Freighters are overpowered

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Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#161 - 2011-10-25 21:44:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Daedalus Arcova
Seriously, get over this bullshit argument about whether JFs are the supercaps of logistics - you're all really missing the point.

This has nothing to do with ship balancing, and everything to do with the economics of long-range logistics.

Simply put, moving vast quantities of materiel from say, Jita to somewhere in Delve, should be a massive logistical undertaking taking several different ships and a meaningful amount of effort. It shouldn't be something that can be done by one player, using one ship (plus a few cyno alts), with a few hours(?) of autopiloting and a few risk-free jumps between stations. Moving that much stuff, that far, should be such a demanding process in time, expense and effort that it becomes unthinkable except for the most essential goods.

I remember a Dev saying at some point that highsec - nullsec logistics should be a little like living on the American wild west frontier - waiting for the mail train to come past once a month. I agree completely.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#162 - 2011-10-25 21:47:37 UTC
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
Simply put, moving vast quantities of materiel from say, Jita to somewhere in Delve, should be a massive logistical undertaking taking several different ships and a meaningful amount of effort.


no it shouldn't, for reasons I elaborated on in great detail two pages ago

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#163 - 2011-10-25 21:47:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
go address that if you wish to continue making a discredited point

edit: here is the post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=219268#post219268

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#164 - 2011-10-25 21:50:20 UTC
also, if you think supplying an 0.0 alliance isn't a meaningful amount of effort, you're insane

jump freighters merely make it possible, not easy, its still awful boring as **** space work that takes an insane amount of time

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#165 - 2011-10-25 21:55:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
steave435 wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
steave435 wrote:
Says who? Supercarriers and titans are combat super caps, JFs are super versions of the capital class "freighters" and is thus an industrial super cap.


are you brain-dead what's a zealot compared to whatever the base amarr cruiser is, a supercap omen?

Super cap = super CAPITAL.
Omen != capital -> Zealot is not a super CAPITAL
Freighter = capital -> JF = super CAPITAL

thrulinn, read the thread, I went into detail about why they are supercaps earlier. Considering your posts and your name though, it's pretty obvious what you're doing, so I'll just ignore you.
Food for thought, as I won't argue the point (yes, I have read post #56 and understand your point of view):

Neither freighters nor jumpfreighters require Capital Ships skill, so they can be considered just big sub-caps built with some capital components. Note that all capitals are built with pretty much the same components, except freighters are only built with a small subset of capital components. Jumpfreighters are just freighters with jumpdrives, and are very similar to Black Ops in materials.

The Orca similarly is built with capital parts, and lacks a jumpdrive like freighters, and also doesn't require Capital Ships skill.

Back to the meat of the matter...

I really don't see the point of nerfing jumpfreighters if your intent is to increase nulsec logistics difficulty. It would be better to just remove JF and refund the skill points in that case, as their only purpose is to simplify nulsec logistics. I currently own 3 Rhea, so of course I'd hate for anything to happen to them, but I'll adapt if something does. I also own a Rorqual and a Chimera, which are almost as useful for hauling.
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#166 - 2011-10-25 22:02:45 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
also, if you think supplying an 0.0 alliance isn't a meaningful amount of effort, you're insane

jump freighters merely make it possible, not easy, its still awful boring as **** space work that takes an insane amount of time

What you're not getting is that giving JFs their proper label would not make logistics that much harder - you'd just need to run regular freighters from the trade hub to the first low sec and ESCORT them trough the first gate - you just need to keep it clear for a minute while the freighters go in. After that, they can load up the JFs, which you then need to ESCORT to null, aka maybe 1-2 mid points plus destination, and then freighters unload them. It will be a pain in the ass if you try to do it solo, but if you assemble a fleet so you can fly several freighters at once with a combat fleet to clear the gate, you can easily get a ton of stuff into low sec at once, and then you can escort a bunch of JFs at the same time back home in a single trip.
Basically, rather then logistics being space work, it would suddenly be a fleet activity PVP thing, you could at any point get into a fight and actually have FUN instead of just doing booring, repetitive work. Get your alliance members to help out rather then relying on a very small group to do it all and it won't be a problem.
If you think it is a problem, then great - recruit some miners to mine ore in your local space and some manufacturers to build ships from those minerals and you have the supplies right next door without the need to haul, and you just created a local market in 0.0.
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#167 - 2011-10-25 22:11:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Daedalus Arcova
steave435 wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
also, if you think supplying an 0.0 alliance isn't a meaningful amount of effort, you're insane

jump freighters merely make it possible, not easy, its still awful boring as **** space work that takes an insane amount of time

What you're not getting is that giving JFs their proper label would not make logistics that much harder - you'd just need to run regular freighters from the trade hub to the first low sec and ESCORT them trough the first gate - you just need to keep it clear for a minute while the freighters go in. After that, they can load up the JFs, which you then need to ESCORT to null, aka maybe 1-2 mid points plus destination, and then freighters unload them. It will be a pain in the ass if you try to do it solo, but if you assemble a fleet so you can fly several freighters at once with a combat fleet to clear the gate, you can easily get a ton of stuff into low sec at once, and then you can escort a bunch of JFs at the same time back home in a single trip.
Basically, rather then logistics being space work, it would suddenly be a fleet activity PVP thing, you could at any point get into a fight and actually have FUN instead of just doing booring, repetitive work. Get your alliance members to help out rather then relying on a very small group to do it all and it won't be a problem.
If you think it is a problem, then great - recruit some miners to mine ore in your local space and some manufacturers to build ships from those minerals and you have the supplies right next door without the need to haul, and you just created a local market in 0.0.


Quoted for truth.

Edit: Fleet-work and cooperation in logistics operations is better gameplay. Real industrial activity distributed throughout nullsec instead of all centred around Jita is better gameplay.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#168 - 2011-10-25 22:12:17 UTC
escort duty is not fun, and has never been fun: it is boring space work because the goal is to have so many people there that nothing will happen

you have offered no reason this is a positive change for EVE gameplay in any way

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#169 - 2011-10-25 22:12:46 UTC
if you think escort duty is "fun pvp" you are so ******* high I am suprised you can type

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#170 - 2011-10-25 22:13:50 UTC
"we could double the length of time it takes to fly to a fight! it would be fun pvp, because it doubles the time where ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN"

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#171 - 2011-10-25 22:24:12 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
escort duty is not fun, and has never been fun: it is boring space work because the goal is to have so many people there that nothing will happen

you have offered no reason this is a positive change for EVE gameplay in any way

You just need a few carriers jumping over to the low sec point, with some docking up and swapping to combat ships and some staying in triage carriers, or just put the carriers at the gate. We're talking about the freighters being in danger for a minute or so here - as long as you scout, a small group is enough to provide security against anything that happens to show up (get a few fast locking Lokis or whatever to guard against cynos).
There will be some, like you, who still think that that's :effort:, but they can, as I said, recruit miners and manufacturers and have the goods appearing at their base rather then in a trade hub.
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#172 - 2011-10-25 22:28:03 UTC
Weaselior, you're so committed to the routine of ferrying everything to and from highsec that you can't see beyond that. By making that process more challenging, people will be encouraged to avoid it entirely. The more you build in nullsec, the less you have to haul from highsec.

How is it a good thing that the economy of every single part of New Eden revolves around shipping things to and from Jita?
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#173 - 2011-10-25 22:30:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
Weaselior, you're so committed to the routine of ferrying everything to and from highsec that you can't see beyond that. By making that process more challenging, people will be encouraged to avoid it entirely. The more you build in nullsec, the less you have to haul from highsec.

How is it a good thing that the economy of every single part of New Eden revolves around shipping things to and from Jita?

i answered this in my megapost, i even linked it

if you wish to make this argument at least go read what I've already written on the subject rather than asking questions I've answered

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#174 - 2011-10-25 22:31:23 UTC
steave435 wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
escort duty is not fun, and has never been fun: it is boring space work because the goal is to have so many people there that nothing will happen

you have offered no reason this is a positive change for EVE gameplay in any way

You just need a few carriers jumping over to the low sec point, with some docking up and swapping to combat ships and some staying in triage carriers, or just put the carriers at the gate. We're talking about the freighters being in danger for a minute or so here - as long as you scout, a small group is enough to provide security against anything that happens to show up (get a few fast locking Lokis or whatever to guard against cynos).
There will be some, like you, who still think that that's :effort:, but they can, as I said, recruit miners and manufacturers and have the goods appearing at their base rather then in a trade hub.


so we're abandoining the argument this is anything but "more space work" i assume, just arguing it is less space work than previously thought

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#175 - 2011-10-25 22:45:34 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
steave435 wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
escort duty is not fun, and has never been fun: it is boring space work because the goal is to have so many people there that nothing will happen

you have offered no reason this is a positive change for EVE gameplay in any way

You just need a few carriers jumping over to the low sec point, with some docking up and swapping to combat ships and some staying in triage carriers, or just put the carriers at the gate. We're talking about the freighters being in danger for a minute or so here - as long as you scout, a small group is enough to provide security against anything that happens to show up (get a few fast locking Lokis or whatever to guard against cynos).
There will be some, like you, who still think that that's :effort:, but they can, as I said, recruit miners and manufacturers and have the goods appearing at their base rather then in a trade hub.


so we're abandoining the argument this is anything but "more space work" i assume, just arguing it is less space work than previously thought

It is indeed the same "work" pretty much, but with the difference that getting the huge work decrease from using the JFs require supporting them with other ships, making it a group activity. Anything is much more fun when you do it together with a good group of people rather then solo.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#176 - 2011-10-25 22:47:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
steave435 wrote:
It is indeed the same "work" pretty much, but with the difference that getting the huge work decrease from using the JFs require supporting them with other ships, making it a group activity. Anything is much more fun when you do it together with a good group of people rather then solo.


see earlier megapost about why "ooh! more space work!" is a stupendously bad idea for 0.0

i hope we've also abandoned "you need a support fleet for supercaps, ergo you must need a support fleet for jump freighters!" argument since we all learned that supercaps are a whole different ship class, not merely "good capitals" argument and therefore jump freighters are not supercaps

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#177 - 2011-10-25 22:49:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
also this is vastly more space work as you've just multiplied the necessary people by like 20 at a minimum (meaining it's way more than a 20x increase in space work as you also have to corrall 20 people on a regular basis for mind-numbing space work) so don't try to pass it off as "the same space work"

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#178 - 2011-10-25 22:54:35 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
steave435 wrote:
It is indeed the same "work" pretty much, but with the difference that getting the huge work decrease from using the JFs require supporting them with other ships, making it a group activity. Anything is much more fun when you do it together with a good group of people rather then solo.


see earlier megapost about why "ooh! more space work!" is a stupendously bad idea for 0.0

i hope we've also abandoned "you need a support fleet for supercaps, ergo you must need a support fleet for jump freighters!" argument since we all learned that supercaps are a whole different ship class, not merely "good capitals" argument and therefore jump freighters are not supercaps

Nope, that's just your (wrong) opinion.
Since you keep ignoring the points of "this will be a group activity rather then work" and "if you don't agree with that, you can help the game by recruiting miners and manufacturers", I'll consider you a troll from now on though.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#179 - 2011-10-25 22:56:11 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
also this is vastly more space work as you've just multiplied the necessary people by like 20 at a minimum (meaining it's way more than a 20x increase in space work as you also have to corrall 20 people on a regular basis for mind-numbing space work) so don't try to pass it off as "the same space work"


Just looks like mining, both are so boring and need so many people for such low revenue and fun.
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#180 - 2011-10-25 22:57:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Daedalus Arcova
Weaselior wrote:
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
How is it a good thing that the economy of every single part of New Eden revolves around shipping things to and from Jita?

i answered this in my megapost, i even linked it

if you wish to make this argument at least go read what I've already written on the subject rather than asking questions I've answered


I've read it, and you haven't really answered it. You've said that EVE is designed in a way that requires vast quantities of materials to be shipped out to nullsec. But you're only half right - EVE is designed in a way that encourages vast amounts of materials to be shipped out to nullsec. A very large part of that encouragement is the ease with which JF logistics work.

Obviously, there are some things which will always make more sense to be acquired at a trade hub than built to order in an outpost or a POS. But beyond that, nullsec alliances are perfectly capable of building up a local industrial base to provide much of what they need in terms of at least T1 ships and ammo (I've seen it done by renters). But for the most part, they just don't want to because it's so much easier to just guilt some poor sod who owns a JF to ship everything they need from highsec.

Making logistics a group effort does several things:

  • provides more opportunity for cooperation between players.
  • demystifies the 'ships and modules fairy'. The more ordinary players know about and participate in the logistics process, the less likely it is that they'll take it for granted.
  • gives more incentive to build things locally, if group-work logistics is too much effort to maintain at that frequency.


Nullsec has enormous capacity for industry, which is nearly completely neglected at the moment. Preventing JFs from using stargates will both encourage players to develop industry in nullsec, and to work together more to get their essential shipments moved safely. Both of those outcomes are positive changes to gameplay. It really isn't hard to grasp.