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Jump Freighters are overpowered

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AureoLion
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2011-10-14 16:18:41 UTC
JFs aren't overpowered at all, mineral compression is.
Centra Spike
Lonetrek Consulting Group
#42 - 2011-10-14 17:54:36 UTC
Lyrrashae wrote:
But it's not a super-capital. Not even close.

Or did CCP change the mechanics and give JF's 30mn+ EHP, 10000+ DPS, conventional-tackle-immunity, and a 5000+ DPS local tank, or conversely, did they all of a sudden allow SCs to dock in stations, and transit gates--in hisec--whilst I was sleeping?

And they have support--or did the massive chain of people, time and effort it takes to even build one, let alone the sovereignty-holding Alliance assets and effort needed to protect same, in zerosec just kinda slide by you--Gods, don't you just love the 1337-PvP entitlement-mentality, eh!


It is a supercapital relative to the the next lower tier of ship, the Freighter. Why are you comparing a supercarrier or Titan to a JF? The comparison you need to make is the difference between supercarrier vs. carrier and JF vs. Freighter. We're talking about the massive logistics bonus you receive when you switch from a Freighter to a Jump Freighter.


Tanya Powers wrote:
Jump Freighters will become overpowered the day they can directly jump from low/null in to high sec or from/to Wh's.

Until then adapt or die.
Train for one and buy it. Then come here again cry how fragile/expensive it is.

Thxbye



Sounds like someone doesn't want their easy-mode logistics ship nerfed. Game breaking ships need to be brought in line.


David Grogan wrote:


no it wont

at present t2 production is so reliant on technetium & using valueable bpos that noone in their right mind will mass build t2 gear / ships in conquerable stations and risk getting locked out.

the few t2 bpos will never leave high sec... you'd be damn silly to risk losing one.

With goons on a campaign to blockage ice & killing any form of industrial its even more likely t2 production will never leave high sec.

also outposts have very limited build slots and poses are getting too costly to produce stuff in and are hopelessly weak vs today's cap /supercap blobs. they arent even good vs bs blobs.


People are willing to bring their Supercapital BPOs and BPCs to 0.0, which are also extremely valuable, because they are forced to. If T2 production was forced to 0.0 or received a massive bonus, people would move production to 0.0, which would involve more than a Jump Freighter change.

But beyond shifting industry to 0.0, or at least encouraging it, the Jump Freighter needs to be looked at.

Follow us @PLIRC!
Centra Spike
Lonetrek Consulting Group
#43 - 2011-10-14 17:55:20 UTC
David Grogan wrote:
David Magnus wrote:
So you're telling me that Jump Freighters can jump directly from high sec (where they can't be attacked)



have you looks at the killboards recently? im seeing lots of dead jf's Moar Tears guys have been ganking Jf's alot lately

Moar Tears' Jf/freighter campaign


So they die, what's your point?

Nanoships also died, but they were still game breaking.

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Ratnose Banker
Pink Sockers
#44 - 2011-10-14 18:36:30 UTC
Anyone can login trap or use suicide alts to catch noobs who fly their jump freighter in corp during war dec...it's like saying super caps shouldn't be nerfed because PL rapes dudes who go afk in their nyx at jump bridge poses.



Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#45 - 2011-10-14 18:51:42 UTC
Centra Spike wrote:
Sounds like someone doesn't want their easy-mode logistics ship nerfed. Game breaking ships need to be brought in line.


Let me get this straigh 4U Lol

I clearly don't give a **** you manage to break JF's or nerf them, I clearly don't give a **** of ganking miners haulers in high sec or whatever.

I do care when I log if I have fun or not, the day come where I don't any more, I will change just like I did with other games.

Most posts about nerf/revamp are about personal opinions and wishes and not for the greater good of the game or community majority.

The result is what you have right now, and dare to say it's noobs that make it I'm already smiling.

Go ahead nerf the JF, nerf everything I don't care. I'm cross trained minmatar why should I care from now on? Lol
David Grogan
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2011-10-14 18:58:09 UTC
Centra Spike wrote:
David Grogan wrote:
David Magnus wrote:
So you're telling me that Jump Freighters can jump directly from high sec (where they can't be attacked)



have you looks at the killboards recently? im seeing lots of dead jf's Moar Tears guys have been ganking Jf's alot lately

Moar Tears' Jf/freighter campaign


So they die, what's your point?

Nanoships also died, but they were still game breaking.


my point was someone said they cant be killed in high sec............. the link proves otherwise.

Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless you are from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs.
Mongo Edwards
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2011-10-14 19:46:16 UTC
If a JF were re categorized as supers their pilot (if keeping with the current supercap class) would be:

1) Unable to dock - so they can't do their job
2) Unable to be built in high sec or low sec - sounds like a new monopoly for sov
3) Unable to enter highsec or use gates
4) Would gain EWAR immunity
5) Would be inline for a massive HP buff

Reclassing JF's as supers starts you on a slippery slope and sets the precedent for combat supers to be able to dock - which should be avoided IMO.

Also unless your undock is directly inline with a gate as soon as you align/warp to a gate you lose your session timer and can be targetted/pointed/killed.
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#48 - 2011-10-14 21:10:08 UTC
David Grogan wrote:
Centra Spike wrote:
David Grogan wrote:
David Magnus wrote:
So you're telling me that Jump Freighters can jump directly from high sec (where they can't be attacked)



have you looks at the killboards recently? im seeing lots of dead jf's Moar Tears guys have been ganking Jf's alot lately

Moar Tears' Jf/freighter campaign


So they die, what's your point?

Nanoships also died, but they were still game breaking.


my point was someone said they cant be killed in high sec............. the link proves otherwise.

I said JFs can't be killed unless the pilot is ********, and that they/you don't count since ships need to be balanced according to how people that have a clue about how to use them use them. Those JF pilots were ********.


Mongo Edwards wrote:
If a JF were re categorized as supers their pilot (if keeping with the current supercap class) would be:

1) Unable to dock - so they can't do their job
2) Unable to be built in high sec or low sec - sounds like a new monopoly for sov
3) Unable to enter highsec or use gates
4) Would gain EWAR immunity
5) Would be inline for a massive HP buff

Reclassing JF's as supers starts you on a slippery slope and sets the precedent for combat supers to be able to dock - which should be avoided IMO.

Also unless your undock is directly inline with a gate as soon as you align/warp to a gate you lose your session timer and can be targetted/pointed/killed.

1) Sure they can do their job, they just need a support fleet to bring the goods to them in the POS and back to station in the target system. The support hauls between station and POS, JF hauls between systems, like in the real world where lots of trucks bring stuff to ships and then the ships carry that somewhere else where other trucks unload it.

2) Indeed.

3) Exactly

4) Maybe, it's a super cap industrial after all, not a super cap combat ship.

5) Nope, a JF has about 100 times as much EHP as their sub cap version when unfitted, roughly the same ratio apply to a BS compared to a SC.

No, it doesn't, the JF would be made unable to dock.

No you can't, you wait out your session change timer and then start trying to warp. If you get tackled, you dock back up and try again.
Centra Spike
Lonetrek Consulting Group
#49 - 2011-10-14 22:28:05 UTC
Mongo Edwards wrote:
If a JF were re categorized as supers their pilot (if keeping with the current supercap class) would be:

1) Unable to dock - so they can't do their job
2) Unable to be built in high sec or low sec - sounds like a new monopoly for sov
3) Unable to enter highsec or use gates
4) Would gain EWAR immunity
5) Would be inline for a massive HP buff

Reclassing JF's as supers starts you on a slippery slope and sets the precedent for combat supers to be able to dock - which should be avoided IMO.

Also unless your undock is directly inline with a gate as soon as you align/warp to a gate you lose your session timer and can be targetted/pointed/killed.



You're using the attributes of a supercarrier and titan to define what a supercapital is, which is correct in the current state of the game. The supercarrier and titan are in a tier above the carrier and dread, and benefit from your listed attributes.

Now when you look at the Jump Freighter in comparison to the Freighter, it gains massive bonuses. The difference between the tiers is what makes the JF a "supercapital" when compared to the Freighter.

And again, just because they can die, doesn't mean they aren't unbalanced, especially when the majority of JFs can avoid even being in a situation where they can be "targetted/pointed/killed".

The built-in mechanic of session change and docking radius allow them to be near invulnerable when travelling around.

Follow us @PLIRC!
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2011-10-15 01:23:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
Centra Spike wrote:
The built-in mechanic of session change and docking radius allow them to be near invulnerable when travelling around.


Sounds like your problem is with stations and game mechanics, not JFs.

edit: u still mad btw, let the butthurt flow through you
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#51 - 2011-10-15 01:42:04 UTC
steave435 wrote:
Lyrrashae wrote:
steave435 wrote:
pussnheels wrote:
to the OP you ever had a look at the skills needed to use a JF efficient and did you ever had a look at the pricetag of one or considered the chain of other people you need to operate one ,not even talking about the greatly reduced cargospace

umm no i think you are either a trol , or never operated one or just mad because you failed to gank one

and for once i actually agreeing with a goon

So what, cost isn't a balance factor.
If the combat supercaps need support, then the industrial supercap should obviously do so too.


But it's not a super-capital. Not even close.

Or did CCP change the mechanics and give JF's 30mn+ EHP, 10000+ DPS, conventional-tackle-immunity, and a 5000+ DPS local tank, or conversely, did they all of a sudden allow SCs to dock in stations, and transit gates--in hisec--whilst I was sleeping?

And they have support--or did the massive chain of people, time and effort it takes to even build one, let alone the sovereignty-holding Alliance assets and effort needed to protect same, in zerosec just kinda slide by you--Gods, don't you just love the 1337-PvP entitlement-mentality, eh!

It isn't classed as one right now, but it should be, because that's what it effectively is.
Unfitted, it has about 100 times as much EHP as its sub-capital brothers, which is about as much EHP as SCs gains over theirs. A non-nyx SC does 8000 DPS, while a BS does 1000, so an 8x increase in their primary role, while a JF can carry about 10 times as much as the regular industrials. The ship never enters combat, and if it is somehow caught, it will try to get out asap, so rep tank is irrelevant, only EHP counts.

Indeed supercaps can NOT dock in stations, and go trough gates, or enter high sec at all - that is why the industrial supercap, the JF, is overpowered! It's an inofficial supercap that CAN do all those things!

You obviously have no clue what you're talking about though, JFs can be built in low sec stations, but yes, they should be given official supercap status and require that sov and towers to be built and the defenders to defend it while it builds.

Oh and requiring a support fleet obviously means requiring a support fleet when actually using the ship, the other supercaps all do despite taking all that effort and several times more isk to build.


Oh, sorry my bad, re building: I thought they could only be built in null, but it turns out I was wrong. (Can they, or at least their components, be built in hisec? Major risk of gank, if so. At least, that's a target I'd go after with a few Arty-Pests Twisted)

The rest of this however, is a pure fallacy of false equivalence:

The fact that it has about 20-50 times--not even close to 100--the EHP of a (properly-tanked) industrial, and quite a bit less of a gap between it and a (properly-tanked again) tech II Transport (the non-cloaky one) isn't saying much when the former, especially, are made of paper.

The most durable of the JFs, the Amarr Ark-class (I think? C/B/A to check), has ca. 351,000EHP with max skills/no implants, so that's a little more than the heaviest-tanked battleships and/or command ships...But it's slowness and city-sized signature work against it--30-35 gank-fitted arty-Maels can still alpha it in a 0.5/0.6if they overheat, have good skills, and use Domination ammo into it's resist holes.

Now, the fallacy of your argument:

The fact that they have such a large EHP compared to their sub-capital brethren, and the fact that this proportion is roughly equal to capital/supercapital warships vs. their sub-cap brethren does not in itself, imply anything at all, let alone advantage:

The former are warships, and can defend themselves--whilst being immune to conventional tackle and EWAR--the JF is a big, really really expensive box that cannot, and is not.

The two fulfill completely different roles, in completely different manners, and the JF cannot defend itself against attack, and if it gets pointed by anything at all, then it's probably finished. And that's not even concerning the cost of its' cargo.

In other words, two ship-types being capital sized and having jump drives does not make them or their "power" equivalent in any way, given how totally different their intended roles are, and the fact that one can't defend itself at all.

Sooooo....tell me, OP: If CCP were to nerf the jumping/bridging ability of super-capital warships along with JFs--they're equivalent in that sense after all! You said so, not I!--would you be so happy then, to "take the good with the bad," as it were?

[ cynicism]

I tend to doubt it myself...

[/cynicism]

Ni.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#52 - 2011-10-15 02:31:49 UTC
Most nullsec alliances, including GoonSwarm, depend heavily on jump freighters. I agree that they're overpowered to an extent - but it's a necessary evil. Mining is mind-numbing and boring, and it's much too risky in nullsec for too little reward, especially since the ships can't tank 0.0 belt rat spawns.

Nullsec industry sucks. Nerfing jump freighters will simply cause nullsec alliances to huddle up closer to Empire, leaving a majority of the map vacant.

1) Seed infrastructure hub upgrade BPOs, damn it.
2) Find a sane solution to the sorry state of nullsec industry. The largest part of nullsec industry revolves around building supercapitals. This should not be the case.
3) As with #1, minimize nullsec's dependency on NPC-seeded items in general.

When these things have been fixed, then nerfing jump freighters will make sense. Don't screw nullsec over.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Centra Spike
Lonetrek Consulting Group
#53 - 2011-10-15 03:22:11 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Centra Spike wrote:
The built-in mechanic of session change and docking radius allow them to be near invulnerable when travelling around.


Sounds like your problem is with stations and game mechanics, not JFs.

edit: u still mad btw, let the butthurt flow through you


Log-off mechanics also protected supercapitals, and they are being addressed as part of the upcoming nerf to supercapitals.

P.S. u still a bad Drake pilot, and Elo says he hates you.

Lyrrashae wrote:
Sooooo....tell me, OP: If CCP were to nerf the jumping/bridging ability of super-capital warships along with JFs--they're equivalent in that sense after all! You said so, not I!--would you be so happy then, to "take the good with the bad," as it were?


What? I assume the rest of your post is in regards to Steave, I haven't read his posts because he tried to take my titan's parking spot until I threatened to eject him from the tower.

The argument is that JFs are unbalanced in their role of moving stuff. In this role they are vastly superior to any other ship within that role. And the jump (pun intended) between the freighter and the jump freighter is equivalent to the increase capability of the supercarrier and carrier.

I am not comparing these two separate ship classes against each other, I am comparing the differences between each tier of ship in its respective class.

Andski wrote:
Most nullsec alliances, including GoonSwarm, depend heavily on jump freighters. I agree that they're overpowered to an extent - but it's a necessary evil. Mining is mind-numbing and boring, and it's much too risky in nullsec for too little reward, especially since the ships can't tank 0.0 belt rat spawns.

Nullsec industry sucks. Nerfing jump freighters will simply cause nullsec alliances to huddle up closer to Empire, leaving a majority of the map vacant.

1) Seed infrastructure hub upgrade BPOs, damn it.
2) Find a sane solution to the sorry state of nullsec industry. The largest part of nullsec industry revolves around building supercapitals. This should not be the case.
3) As with #1, minimize nullsec's dependency on NPC-seeded items in general.

When these things have been fixed, then nerfing jump freighters will make sense. Don't screw nullsec over.


I do agree that JFs make logistics so much easier, if I had to move all my stuff any other way, I wouldn't be happy.

However, a lot of things are mind-numbingly boring in this game, but it's not a valid reason not to address an issue. And if a ship class requires a fleet to protect it, why not force that change? By neutering supercarriers' ability to ward off sub caps, CCP is effectively forcing these ship classes to require a fleet for protection.

I don't believe alliances would huddle closer to empire for ease of logistics, the jump bridge allows movement over vast amounts of space.

As to your other points, there are a lot of sweeping changes CCP needs to make, but that is beyond the scope of this thread.

Follow us @PLIRC!
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2011-10-15 04:58:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
Centra Spike wrote:
Log-off mechanics also protected supercapitals, and they are being addressed as part of the upcoming nerf to supercapitals.


So hey nerf docking radius, make more stations kickouts, etc. Don't say, "oh boy, haul freighters through 8 jumps of low and 22 jumps of null to get your alliance **** it needs!"

Quote:
P.S. u still a bad Drake pilot, and Elo says he hates you.


lol you should cry for triage about it, babby spike
Centra Spike
Lonetrek Consulting Group
#55 - 2011-10-15 05:36:05 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
lol you should cry for triage about it, babby spike


Bro-pact over.

Follow us @PLIRC!
Tasiv Deka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2011-10-15 08:34:42 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
okay this goes to the op and i apologize if i missed it in an earlier post what are your ideas on how to nerf the jfs because in all honesty all ive read from you is you shooting down others arguments. Now from what i have read the only thing i could see doing is removing the ability to transport fitted ships and maybe dropping cargo space a little bit however i havent flown a Jf or even a freighter... i use a badger mk2 for my transport needs so my opinion shouldnt carry too much weight

Oh, Do go on... no seriously ive got nothing better to do then listen to all the petty arguments and feeble trolling attempts... 

The sad thing is i'm not sure if i'm telling the truth.
MukkBarovian
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#57 - 2011-10-15 08:54:56 UTC
Jump Freighter is op. Just because idiots use them doesn't mean otherwise. If the only criteria for balance is that you can die if you're a dumbass while piloting it then SC wouldn't be getting a nerf right now. Idiots die in SC all the time.

Carrier and Rorqual can do almost the same thing. Only difference is no high sec. If the Jump Freighter was removed from the game players could use those ships to do exactly the same thing. So in the end calling for a JF nerf only really accounts to demanding that people not be allowed to haul as much safely at one time. I don't see much point in this.

Trying to get industry to blossom in 0.0 is like trying to grow a garden in the dessert. If you're crafty you could do it. You could live off the dessert if you had to. But if you want an apple its easier to get it shipped in. If you're not able to ship it in you're not going to grow an apple tree. You're gonna learn to like cactus fruit.

The only way to create 0.0 industry is to get rid of highsec or change the mining experience so its not a task for bots and then boost 0.0 mining rates through the roof compared to highsec.
Tasiv Deka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2011-10-15 08:59:26 UTC
MukkBarovian wrote:
Jump Freighter is op. Just because idiots use them doesn't mean otherwise. If the only criteria for balance is that you can die if you're a dumbass while piloting it then SC wouldn't be getting a nerf right now. Idiots die in SC all the time.

Carrier and Rorqual can do almost the same thing. Only difference is no high sec. If the Jump Freighter was removed from the game players could use those ships to do exactly the same thing. So in the end calling for a JF nerf only really accounts to demanding that people not be allowed to haul as much safely at one time. I don't see much point in this.

Trying to get industry to blossom in 0.0 is like trying to grow a garden in the dessert. If you're crafty you could do it. You could live off the dessert if you had to. But if you want an apple its easier to get it shipped in. If you're not able to ship it in you're not going to grow an apple tree. You're gonna learn to like cactus fruit.

The only way to create 0.0 industry is to get rid of highsec or change the mining experience so its not a task for bots and then boost 0.0 mining rates through the roof compared to highsec.



i actually like cactus fruit... well i like tequila which is close enough

Oh, Do go on... no seriously ive got nothing better to do then listen to all the petty arguments and feeble trolling attempts... 

The sad thing is i'm not sure if i'm telling the truth.
Sh0plifter
Underworld Property Accounting Partnership
#59 - 2011-10-15 13:08:42 UTC
You're POSes are doing well with blowing up your JFs. So, you are really solving this problem yourselves. Big smile
Akara Ito
Phalanx Solutions
#60 - 2011-10-15 14:16:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Akara Ito
Centra Spike wrote:

It is a supercapital relative to the the next lower tier of ship, the Freighter. Why are you comparing a supercarrier or Titan to a JF? The comparison you need to make is the difference between supercarrier vs. carrier and JF vs. Freighter. We're talking about the massive logistics bonus you receive when you switch from a Freighter to a Jump Freighter.



Ok Thats a decent troll I give you that.

But I'll do you the favor and bite:

1. Its not a Supercap because a) it can dock, b) it has no ewar imunity, c) it can use gates and d) you dont need sov to build it.
2. The logic of nerfing all "Supercaps" (JFs are none but ok) because some needed a nerf is ********. Please nerf every single frigate in game along with the announced Dramiel nerf
3. Even the "relative" relation from JFs to freighters is not that "super" The primary use of JFs and Freighters is transporting stuff. The JFs cargo is actually considerable smaller than a Freighter cargo. Yes it has a Jumpdrive, but the relation from Freighter to JFs is more similar to BS -> Blackops. Sacrificing a bit of their primary attributes (DPS/EHP for BS and cargo for Freighters) to gain a jumpdrive and additional functions. Please go ahead and nerf Blackops, do it.
4. Just for the records: there will never, ever be Freighter convoys through low sec in this game. This would be ******** in so much ways I'm not going to bother writing them down. I'll give you a hint: even if 10 Freighters would travel with a full fleet as escorts, a hostile fleet would just need 30 (more like 15 but whatever) people to warp in and alpha your freighter, no escort, no logistics, nothing could protect you from that.