These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Jump Freighters are overpowered

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Centra Spike
Lonetrek Consulting Group
#21 - 2011-10-13 15:48:43 UTC
Valoche Mrehl wrote:
If the end result was as you say, Centra, than it would be golden. Force localized production, slow down massive transfers of materials etc.

But the truth is people would hero tank their dreads, carriers, rorquals and continue to jump things in complete safety. With new "bays/cargoholds" it's not near as efficient, but I can't believe that would be a truly limiting factor. Maybe a few would stop, but it would not change the trend Evil

99.9% safe jumping > Significant risk gate jumping. The root problem is deeper than Jump Freighters. They just legitimize it.


The three ship types you listed could be used for moving stuff, but not nearly at the same scale as the Jump Freighter, nor can they jump from the safety of high sec. You would still have to move stuff to them.

I'm not saying Jump Freighters should be removed, but they need to be brought in line with the of the game.

Follow us @PLIRC!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#22 - 2011-10-13 16:04:24 UTC
Centra Spike wrote:
Jump Freighters can move massive amounts of finished goods with impunity.
Then you're doing it wrong… Twisted
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2011-10-13 16:35:31 UTC
Centra Spike wrote:
I'm not saying Jump Freighters should be removed, but they need to be brought in line with the of the game.

you mean they need rigs + some amount of slots to defend themself?

fully agree

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Centra Spike
Lonetrek Consulting Group
#24 - 2011-10-13 16:44:47 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Centra Spike wrote:
Jump Freighters can move massive amounts of finished goods with impunity.
Then you're doing it wrong… Twisted


Doing what wrong? Moving 21b worth of tech every month with no worries or issues?


March rabbit wrote:
Centra Spike wrote:
I'm not saying Jump Freighters should be removed, but they need to be brought in line with the of the game.

you mean they need rigs + some amount of slots to defend themself?

fully agree


No, they should require a support fleet to offset their massive logistical capability or have that capability reduced.

Follow us @PLIRC!
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#25 - 2011-10-13 16:46:20 UTC
pussnheels wrote:
Bumblefck wrote:
pussnheels wrote:
to the OP you ever had a look at the skills needed to use a JF efficient




You need the adverb 'efficiently' here, my dimwit friend.


OOHH forgive me my also dimwitt friend forgive that i don't have english as my native language and that i can actually do 4 languages pretty well forgive me for being so un anlo saxon i will try and improve myself



I am neither British nor American, Canadian nor New Zealander, Australian nor South African. English isn't my native language, and yet I try to make a pretty good stab at it and assemble things in a coherent manner. I realise that the prevailing wisdom in EFL/ESL teaching is that 'Communication first - grammatical accuracy second', but...well...

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log
David Magnus
#26 - 2011-10-13 19:13:32 UTC
So you're telling me that Jump Freighters can jump directly from high sec (where they can't be attacked) to within docking range of a station?

And then they can undock from a station in low sec and actually jump before their session change timer runs out (so they are invulnerable until they jump?) ??

And all you need is a couple billion isk to buy it and a cyno alt?


Wow, that's insanely overpowered - how can people not see that?

http://soundcloud.com/davidkmagnus/fight-us-maybe

http://soundcloud.com/davidkmagnus/winterupdate

http://soundcloud.com/davidkmagnus/supercaps

http://soundcloud.com/davidkmagnus/pandemiclegion
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#27 - 2011-10-13 19:18:23 UTC
Centra Spike wrote:
Doing what wrong?
Letting them do it with impunity.
Centra Spike
Lonetrek Consulting Group
#28 - 2011-10-13 19:53:38 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Centra Spike wrote:
Doing what wrong?
Letting them do it with impunity.


It's not a matter of anyone letting anyone do anything, within the game mechanics you can be disproportionately safe compared to any other method of moving that much stuff by being in session change and docking range.

Something I do twice a month when I fuel my Tech moon empire. But judging from your clever one-line response, I'm sure you can kill my Rhea.

Follow us @PLIRC!
Skunk Gracklaw
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2011-10-13 22:31:47 UTC
If jump freighters are so safe why am I seeing multiple JF killmails on eve-kill every day? If you PL dudes can't figure it out go ask the MOAR TEARS guys how they do it.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#30 - 2011-10-13 22:52:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Fon Revedhort
Dunno why some don't want to accept it, but JFs ARE overpowered. The very idea of instantenious logistics looks weird to say the least.

CCP indirectly admits it by keeping autopilot landing you at 15 km, btw ;)

That's the same **** as with supers - some think that price alone is a valid reason for something to be an ultimate weapon - be it insta-killing DD, insta-travelling portal or insta-hauling. It is not. EVE's never been that fubar as it is now - and this is due to CCP adopting this corrupt idea (partially or mostly - up to debate, but the point remains).

Btw, supers are dying on a daily basis, too - and this doesn't make them 'balanced' all of a sudden. No way.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Centra Spike
Lonetrek Consulting Group
#31 - 2011-10-13 23:29:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Centra Spike
Skunk Gracklaw wrote:
If jump freighters are so safe why am I seeing multiple JF killmails on eve-kill every day? If you PL dudes can't figure it out go ask the MOAR TEARS guys how they do it.


Supercaps die also, but they are getting nerfed, what's your point? It's funny that all you detractors seem to be focused on the same minor point, which is killing JFs. The LOGISTICAL capability of the JF is what needs to be balanced.

Thank you for your support Fon, I'm glad some people understand the issue being raised.

Follow us @PLIRC!
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#32 - 2011-10-14 09:42:01 UTC
steave435 wrote:
pussnheels wrote:
to the OP you ever had a look at the skills needed to use a JF efficient and did you ever had a look at the pricetag of one or considered the chain of other people you need to operate one ,not even talking about the greatly reduced cargospace

umm no i think you are either a trol , or never operated one or just mad because you failed to gank one

and for once i actually agreeing with a goon

So what, cost isn't a balance factor.
If the combat supercaps need support, then the industrial supercap should obviously do so too.


But it's not a super-capital. Not even close.

Or did CCP change the mechanics and give JF's 30mn+ EHP, 10000+ DPS, conventional-tackle-immunity, and a 5000+ DPS local tank, or conversely, did they all of a sudden allow SCs to dock in stations, and transit gates--in hisec--whilst I was sleeping?

And they have support--or did the massive chain of people, time and effort it takes to even build one, let alone the sovereignty-holding Alliance assets and effort needed to protect same, in zerosec just kinda slide by you--Gods, don't you just love the 1337-PvP entitlement-mentality, eh!

Ni.
Xiao Mafan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#33 - 2011-10-14 10:10:45 UTC
Bumblefck wrote:
pussnheels wrote:
Bumblefck wrote:
pussnheels wrote:
to the OP you ever had a look at the skills needed to use a JF efficient




You need the adverb 'efficiently' here, my dimwit friend.


OOHH forgive me my also dimwitt friend forgive that i don't have english as my native language and that i can actually do 4 languages pretty well forgive me for being so un anlo saxon i will try and improve myself



I am neither British nor American, Canadian nor New Zealander, Australian nor South African. English isn't my native language, and yet I try to make a pretty good stab at it and assemble things in a coherent manner. I realise that the prevailing wisdom in EFL/ESL teaching is that 'Communication first - grammatical accuracy second', but...well...



One generally takes a stab at something. Also, not everyone has had the advantage of having been taught English formally.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#34 - 2011-10-14 10:36:09 UTC
Jump Freighters will become overpowered the day they can directly jump from low/null in to high sec or from/to Wh's.

Until then adapt or die.
Train for one and buy it. Then come here again cry how fragile/expensive it is.

Thxbye
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#35 - 2011-10-14 10:38:58 UTC  |  Edited by: steave435
Lyrrashae wrote:
steave435 wrote:
pussnheels wrote:
to the OP you ever had a look at the skills needed to use a JF efficient and did you ever had a look at the pricetag of one or considered the chain of other people you need to operate one ,not even talking about the greatly reduced cargospace

umm no i think you are either a trol , or never operated one or just mad because you failed to gank one

and for once i actually agreeing with a goon

So what, cost isn't a balance factor.
If the combat supercaps need support, then the industrial supercap should obviously do so too.


But it's not a super-capital. Not even close.

Or did CCP change the mechanics and give JF's 30mn+ EHP, 10000+ DPS, conventional-tackle-immunity, and a 5000+ DPS local tank, or conversely, did they all of a sudden allow SCs to dock in stations, and transit gates--in hisec--whilst I was sleeping?

And they have support--or did the massive chain of people, time and effort it takes to even build one, let alone the sovereignty-holding Alliance assets and effort needed to protect same, in zerosec just kinda slide by you--Gods, don't you just love the 1337-PvP entitlement-mentality, eh!

It isn't classed as one right now, but it should be, because that's what it effectively is.
Unfitted, it has about 100 times as much EHP as its sub-capital brothers, which is about as much EHP as SCs gains over theirs. A non-nyx SC does 8000 DPS, while a BS does 1000, so an 8x increase in their primary role, while a JF can carry about 10 times as much as the regular industrials. The ship never enters combat, and if it is somehow caught, it will try to get out asap, so rep tank is irrelevant, only EHP counts.

Indeed supercaps can NOT dock in stations, and go trough gates, or enter high sec at all - that is why the industrial supercap, the JF, is overpowered! It's an inofficial supercap that CAN do all those things!

You obviously have no clue what you're talking about though, JFs can be built in low sec stations, but yes, they should be given official supercap status and require that sov and towers to be built and the defenders to defend it while it builds.

Oh and requiring a support fleet obviously means requiring a support fleet when actually using the ship, the other supercaps all do despite taking all that effort and several times more isk to build.
steave435
Perkone
Caldari State
#36 - 2011-10-14 10:44:50 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Jump Freighters will become overpowered the day they can directly jump from low/null in to high sec or from/to Wh's.

Until then adapt or die.
Train for one and buy it. Then come here again cry how fragile/expensive it is.

Thxbye


They jump from the safety of dock range to the safety of dock range with a 30 second invulnerability and then warp to the high sec gate at 0 and jumps in. Unless you're at war, the only way to kill one that isn't an utter ****** (and they don't count for balancing purposes...I know you want to be included, but you're simply irrelevant)...actually, scratch that, getting it killed due to a war is also being an utter ******, so the only way to kill one that isn't an utter ****** is suicide ganking it during its time in high sec, if it even goes there rather then just jumping back and forth from safe stations.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#37 - 2011-10-14 11:25:53 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:

Train for one and buy it. Then come here again cry how fragile/expensive it is.

I for one piloted one in a month after they got released - and I'm not even sure you played EVE back in those days :)
Sold it after our POS cluster was disassembled, but still I have had this kind of experience. So why troll?

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Ratnose Banker
Pink Sockers
#38 - 2011-10-14 12:02:38 UTC
"*CCP has+ gone *too far+ in the direction of making players lives easy – we've got jump freighters and
jump bridges and all this *stuff+ – and I think there is an agreement here *at CCP+ that we want to pull
back from that. We would like to pull back as far as we can get away with. But how far can we go?” The
underlying point is the need to get a balance between avoiding frustration and getting desirable macro-
scale outcomes. " -CCP Greyscale, Dec 2010 CSM Summit

Now that they are working on FIS hopefully CCP can take a look a jump freighters and further jb nerfs.
David Grogan
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2011-10-14 15:22:53 UTC  |  Edited by: David Grogan
Centra Spike wrote:
David Grogan wrote:
0/10 troll


Compelling argument, my friend. But by reducing the ability to move finished goods to nullsec it will force production to be shifted from Empire to nullsec. This will boost regional industry and lead to more dynamic game play.

Instead of just recruiting "elite Jump Freighter" pilots alliances will be forced to get a broad spectrum of players encouraging growth in their space.


no it wont

at present t2 production is so reliant on technetium & using valueable bpos that noone in their right mind will mass build t2 gear / ships in conquerable stations and risk getting locked out.

the few t2 bpos will never leave high sec... you'd be damn silly to risk losing one.

With goons on a campaign to blockage ice & killing any form of industrial its even more likely t2 production will never leave high sec.

also outposts have very limited build slots and poses are getting too costly to produce stuff in and are hopelessly weak vs today's cap /supercap blobs. they arent even good vs bs blobs.

Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless you are from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs.
David Grogan
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2011-10-14 15:33:51 UTC
David Magnus wrote:
So you're telling me that Jump Freighters can jump directly from high sec (where they can't be attacked)



have you looks at the killboards recently? im seeing lots of dead jf's Moar Tears guys have been ganking Jf's alot lately

Moar Tears' Jf/freighter campaign

Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless you are from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs.