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Please fix ninja harvesting
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mr majer
the green fairy
#41 - 2013-02-10 19:28:59 UTC
At least one corp is ready to do whatever is necessary to rid the universe of those pesky things, no matter the cost

http://kb.hardknocksinc.net/index.php/kill_related/5362/

I support all actions that cause the destruction of mining frigates.
Shamus O'Reilly
Candy Cabal
#42 - 2013-02-11 02:28:49 UTC
Mister Tuggles wrote:
Nobutada Mishi wrote:
With the venture out (no nerf on the horizon), and gas prices dropping, I don't think it should be easier to harvest gas. Another reason is it takes the risk out of using shiny ships to clear the sleepers....a potential PVP aspect that is getting harder to find.


You know it wasn't all that difficult to put warp stabs on a battlecruiser for ninja harvesting before the venture came out. Still isn't. People are just using the crap out of the ship because it is new. Give it a few months. The novelty of using the new ship will wear off, people will get bored with gas mining like always, and prices will go back up.

The "new" of the Venture has already worn off. Its the premier gas harvester in game, fast, agile, +2 Warp Core Stability (3 if you put a WCS on the low), can fit a cloak or a scanner..... and is the premier gas harvester in the game...


Trust me when i say this that that little bug will not be losing usage as time progresses unless a better version of it comes out. Hell our corp brought 8 of them into our WH just for the sheer usefulness it has in gas harvesting. With a 5,000m3 bay theres no reason not to.

I also know of many hisec players and even lowseccers who daytrip into Wspace with fleets of them 1 fitted with a scanner/cloak and mine the gravs and ladars as much as possible.

Did i mention that its cheap as hell to build and fit?

It's almost pointless to NOT use them in certain situations

"I swear there are more people complaining over "nullsecers complaining" then actual nullsec people complaining."
VegasMirage
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#43 - 2013-02-11 02:42:20 UTC  |  Edited by: VegasMirage
Gas prices drop, end product prices drop... but more importantly

overall less isk per hour for all activities in the game while plex prices remain high forcing you to use real dollars to pay for your accounts.

Welcome to the new Eve.

Wait till they nerf capital escalation C5/C6 sleeper sites, watch the tears flow.

no more games... it's real this time!!!
florin2001ro
No.Holes.Barred
#44 - 2013-02-11 14:28:22 UTC
bahaha, so many ppl mad, for this **** [ ninja mining was created this ships] a lot of u miss da point, and i like ccp ideea to create a oportunity for new players to explore more and ninja stuff and hope prices will drop for everything not only for t3 to encourage more ppl for pvp not one pew a day and 10 ops for mining gas, and dont forget something, HUNTING PVE SHIPS DONT MAKE U A PVP-ear and 90% of u pretty much do that not really fighting so........think and reflect more on this.
VegasMirage
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#45 - 2013-02-11 16:07:28 UTC
Nobutada Mishi wrote:
With the venture out (no nerf on the horizon), and gas prices dropping, I don't think it should be easier to harvest gas(ninja harvesting clouds without taking aggro from sleepers). Another reason is it takes the risk out of using shiny ships to clear the sleepers....a potential PVP aspect that is getting harder to find.


You have the other problem of time, even before the Venture I could clear a cloud under the time limit sleepers would spawn. So, even if you fix the proximity issue, you still have ninja harvesting going on.

So, you need to address 2 problems.

no more games... it's real this time!!!
Sushi Nardieu
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2013-02-12 10:56:21 UTC
florin2001ro wrote:
bahaha, so many ppl mad, for this **** [ ninja mining was created this ships] a lot of u miss da point, and i like ccp ideea to create a oportunity for new players to explore more and ninja stuff and hope prices will drop for everything not only for t3 to encourage more ppl for pvp not one pew a day and 10 ops for mining gas, and dont forget something, HUNTING PVE SHIPS DONT MAKE U A PVP-ear and 90% of u pretty much do that not really fighting so........think and reflect more on this.


Making sense is so 2012.

The Guns of Knowledge 
Xtrah
Overload This
Escalation Theory
#47 - 2013-02-12 11:48:28 UTC
Point is, it shouldn't matter where on grid you're sitting. If you're within 250km of the sleeper spawn, sleepers should aggro anything. It shouldn't be possible to do gas mining with sleepers in a site at all. Kill the sleepers first, or gas it before the sleepers spawn.

YouTube channel

Latest video: Bhaals Deep against TLC (dread/triage)
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#48 - 2013-02-12 16:29:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
Marsan wrote:
How exact is the venture worse than a cruiser with a few warp stabs? It mines a little faster to be sure, but by that logic we'd be all still be mining in cruisers.


The venture has a ton of advantages when compared to cruisers, starting from being harder to scan down due to smaller signature and the possibility of fitting ECCM to make it even harder, they are also much faster and as such you can orbit the clouds to make getting warpins directly to you much more difficult. On top of that the clouds themselves uncloak everything that tries to sneak up on you on grid and if that's not enough, you'll have a vastly improved alignment speed and as a frigate, getting a lock on you takes more time than it does to lock a cruiser.

And it's not just a little faster, it's the fastest gas harvester in the game when properly trained.


You forgot to mention with its large ore/gas hold it does not need to jetcan, so no can to warp too, and it has warp strength of +2 so even if you do manage to lock it, you need 3 points to tackle it.

But then again if you lock it you can most likely insta pop it, so no need for tackle.

The venture tank IS its GTFO ability. Take away its warp strength, or fast align time it will go from urber to useless.

All the calls to nerf the venture are more a case of " I have not adapted to this new ship fast enough. So you need to nerf it, so I do not need to learn new strategies to gank gas miners."

The issue that needs addressed is the ability to harvest ladar sites without clearing the sleepers, this really has nothing to do with the venture, it is just the new gas harvesting ship.

For the past several years there have been many many requests for a gas mining ship to be added to the game. Now that we have one there are complaints it is good at mining gas? That was an intended part of its design. It is only marginally better than a cruiser with 5 gas harvesters. it could have been 50% better.

Stop complaining it is so hard to catch. That is it's only defense. if you catch it, it is dead, it is a frigate you can insta pop. The Ventures ability to avoid geting locked is its only defense, once locked, it has very little chance. Sure it is hard to tackle, but easy to alfa, why tackle it when you can target it out of tackle range and insta pop it with an alfa strike. yes it is hard to target, but that IS it's main tank. If it was easy to target it would be useless as it would have no defense at all.

If the venture really is to much ship for the price, then remove the gas mining bonus and move it to a T2 version of the ship. Basically the same ship we have now, but costs more if you want to mine gas.
SojournerRover
Explorer Corps
#49 - 2013-02-12 16:43:06 UTC
You can ninja mag/radars sites as well.

[b][u]ROVER[/u] (REDRUM)[/b]
Nobutada Mishi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2013-02-12 16:52:34 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
Marsan wrote:
How exact is the venture worse than a cruiser with a few warp stabs? It mines a little faster to be sure, but by that logic we'd be all still be mining in cruisers.


The venture has a ton of advantages when compared to cruisers, starting from being harder to scan down due to smaller signature and the possibility of fitting ECCM to make it even harder, they are also much faster and as such you can orbit the clouds to make getting warpins directly to you much more difficult. On top of that the clouds themselves uncloak everything that tries to sneak up on you on grid and if that's not enough, you'll have a vastly improved alignment speed and as a frigate, getting a lock on you takes more time than it does to lock a cruiser.

And it's not just a little faster, it's the fastest gas harvester in the game when properly trained.


You forgot to mention with its large ore/gas hold it does not need to jetcan, so no can to warp too, and it has warp strength of +2 so even if you do manage to lock it, you need 3 points to tackle it.

But then again if you lock it you can most likely insta pop it, so no need for tackle.

The venture tank IS its GTFO ability. Take away its warp strength, or fast align time it will go from urber to useless.

All the calls to nerf the venture are more a case of " I have not adapted to this new ship fast enough. So you need to nerf it, so I do not need to learn new strategies to gank gas miners."

The issue that needs addressed is the ability to harvest ladar sites without clearing the sleepers, this really has nothing to do with the venture, it is just the new gas harvesting ship.

For the past several years there have been many many requests for a gas mining ship to be added to the game. Now that we have one there are complaints it is good at mining gas? That was an intended part of its design. It is only marginally better than a cruiser with 5 gas harvesters. it could have been 50% better.

Stop complaining it is so hard to catch. That is it's only defense. if you catch it, it is dead, it is a frigate you can insta pop. The Ventures ability to avoid geting locked is its only defense, once locked, it has very little chance. Sure it is hard to tackle, but easy to alfa, why tackle it when you can target it out of tackle range and insta pop it with an alfa strike. yes it is hard to target, but that IS it's main tank. If it was easy to target it would be useless as it would have no defense at all.

If the venture really is to much ship for the price, then remove the gas mining bonus and move it to a T2 version of the ship. Basically the same ship we have now, but costs more if you want to mine gas.

i don't necessarily think the venture should get nerfed...but I do think it should cost more...maybe even more skills to fly like bugsy suggested. I think it should be right around gas fit bc...so maybe 50-55m-ish. This thread was never really supposed to be about the venture, I added it as a side note. It was supposed to be about ninja harvesting.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#51 - 2013-02-12 17:00:33 UTC
Nobutada Mishi wrote:

i don't necessarily think the venture should get nerfed...but I do think it should cost more...maybe even more skills to fly like bugsy suggested. I think it should be right around gas fit bc...so maybe 50-55m-ish. This thread was never really supposed to be about the venture, I added it as a side note. It was supposed to be about ninja harvesting.

Yes, I agree, but the problem is the venture is not just the new gas mining ship, but also the new noobie mining ship. That is why I suggested making a T2 version, and moving the gas harvest bonuses to the T2 ship.

This would make it more expensive and skill intensive to fly for gas mining, without hurting the new player mining experience.

The T1 venture replaced all the mining cruisers in the tutorial, and is given free to noobs in said tutorials.
Omen Nihilo
Omen Holdings
#52 - 2013-02-12 17:25:31 UTC
Nothing new here. It was possible to ninja high end gas sites long before the Venture existed...
VegasMirage
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#53 - 2013-02-12 22:55:42 UTC  |  Edited by: VegasMirage
Omen Nihilo wrote:
Nothing new here. It was possible to ninja high end gas sites long before the Venture existed...


yes yes and risk to reward has NOTHING to do with this conversation

so rightfully so, since there's little risk there should be little pay.

Nerf the venture or nerf gas prices. Seems the later is what will happen, which is fine by me.

no more games... it's real this time!!!
Senn Denroth
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#54 - 2013-02-12 22:59:41 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
This would make it more expensive and skill intensive to fly for gas mining, without hurting the new player mining experience.


Confirming that we're low in ISK in wormhole space...



Oh Hi Vegas :)
VegasMirage
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#55 - 2013-02-12 23:00:52 UTC
Senn Denroth wrote:
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
This would make it more expensive and skill intensive to fly for gas mining, without hurting the new player mining experience.


Confirming that we're low in ISK in wormhole space...



Oh Hi Vegas :)


oh Hi John :)

no more games... it's real this time!!!
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#56 - 2013-02-12 23:45:28 UTC
Even outside of C5's, us lowsec scrublords are raising cash due to the parlous state of the FW LP store, via blitzing ladars. With 2-3 Ventures hitting the same cloud, you can alpha-suck the expensive gas from a Ladar site before the sleepers spawn; you can turn over 4 ladars in an hour for about 30-40M. Which isn't great, but it isn't bad for an alt if you have an egg timer and warp out when the sleepers spawn.

i see no problem with this. if the wormhole is empty, the ladar is available, and you have the time and spare toon to do it, a Venture alt is a reasonable investment.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
VegasMirage
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#57 - 2013-02-13 00:28:24 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
Even outside of C5's, us lowsec scrublords are raising cash due to the parlous state of the FW LP store, via blitzing ladars. With 2-3 Ventures hitting the same cloud, you can alpha-suck the expensive gas from a Ladar site before the sleepers spawn; you can turn over 4 ladars in an hour for about 30-40M. Which isn't great, but it isn't bad for an alt if you have an egg timer and warp out when the sleepers spawn.

i see no problem with this. if the wormhole is empty, the ladar is available, and you have the time and spare toon to do it, a Venture alt is a reasonable investment.


Off topic a bit, but why haven't drug booster prices dropped if gas harvesting is so popular now? Perhaps there's more risk in low sec, but you're based there I'd think your guys would eat that stuff up at 20-40 million a site.

no more games... it's real this time!!!
Euthanasia Anneto
Embers Children
#58 - 2013-02-13 06:04:49 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
if the wormhole is empty, the ladar is available

Euh... what do you mean with empty?
With or without fixed residents or frequent visitors, I still go for the gas with most of my toons.

I only had one Fun moment with the venture and was also my only loss when I warped out just a little bit to late, still a minute later with a new venture, I returned to that same gas site, recollected the loot lost from the previous and continued Harvesting that cloud. As for each time I spotted that Oracle on scan and saw him landing, I warped off and returned to site and after all that trouble, I still cleared that gas site in front of their nose.

If you want to catch a Venture when solo, drop in a Dictor or Hic and hope there's no welcoming party waiting for you and the pilot didn't checked dscan. else a 2 man gank can do the task when organised.

.EC.. of [TOHA], Industrialists with guns. We're overe there, some where and no where... Contacting go through ingame convo's .EC.. and [TOHA] are recruiting, get in contact with us
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#59 - 2013-02-13 16:25:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
Senn Denroth wrote:
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
This would make it more expensive and skill intensive to fly for gas mining, without hurting the new player mining experience.


Confirming that we're low in ISK in wormhole space...



Oh Hi Vegas :)

I was responding to the comment that the venture was way to cheap for the utility it provides. Any real W-space dweller would not even blink if the venture cost 10 times as much. even 50 times as much, but that would greatly hurt the new players that use it as a noobie miner ship, its other primary role.
Hence my suggestion to make a T2 venture with the gas mining bonuses.

But you are right, It would really have basically zero impact on the game. the Venture is the dedicated gas mining ship many players have been asking for, for a long time, and a new noobie mining ship, all rolled into the same hull.

It does not need nerfed, it is supposed to be good at mining in hostile space. The devs first attempt at a mining ship to be used in hostile space was a fail, the revamped procurer/skiff. The extra ehp did nothing to make it safe, it just made it take a few seconds longer to kill. The venture however was a success. It can some what safely mine or harvest gas in hostile space, with a high chance of survival. That is an intended purpose. making it easy to catch would make the ship useless, as a frigate has no real defence, especially against T3 cruisers that it will face most of the time in W-space.

There is no broken mechanic here that needs fixed. It is "working as intended". Is it such a shock that a new addition to EVE actually works and was not a failed attempt.
Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
#60 - 2013-02-13 23:04:46 UTC
What happened to d-scan, warp sabre to 0, kill venture? You guys are wormholers and scan for your supper anyway. Last I checked, warp strength didn't matter against bubbles. Granted, its a frigate with a fast align, but it will either not stick around when the probes go out or it will die.

Also, confirming w-space is SO broke nowadays. No one makes any money in w-space anymore. In fact, everyone is moving out of W-space and coming to live in null. W-holes are so broken now, SO BROKEN, I tell you, because of ninja-mining ventures!