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Dev blog: The great ship skill change of summer 2013

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War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#141 - 2013-02-07 16:14:06 UTC
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
I would just like to confirm three changes in this dev blog as regards the CCP standard line that "if you could fly it before, you can fly it now." :

Orca : ORE Industrial level 3 required.
Mining Barge : Mining Frigate level 3 required.
Freighter : Advanced Spaceship Command LEVEL 5 REQUIRED!

Does the CCP concept "if you could fly it before, you can fly it now." apply to the above three vessels and the changes you wish to make to their skill requirements Question And if not then why not QuestionShocked


Yes, it applies.

This is not hard.

If you could fly it before, you can fly it after. Period.

The requirement to LEARN the freighter skill is changing. The requirement to FLY a freighter is to have learned the skill. If you learned it under the old pre-reqs, you're fine. If you wish to learn it in the future, you must meet the new pre-reqs.

The end.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Haifisch Zahne
Hraka Manufacture GmbH
#142 - 2013-02-07 16:15:12 UTC
No, it doesn't come down to not reading the devblog-- but maybe you should with an open mind to problems that might exist for *OTHER* players.

The problem is that the new nested requirements are not necessarily skills some (obviously other) players HAD.



Drosal Inkunen wrote:
Bariolage wrote:
Most thorough blog post ever. 6 pages of questions in 3 hours.

A lot of the questions are the same people asking the same thing. It was answered in the dev blog and answered several times in the thread.

It all comes down to people not knowing how nested requirements work.

(Also quite a few people not knowing the difference between the "X Warfare" skill and the "X Warfare Specialist" skill.

fukier
Gallente Federation
#143 - 2013-02-07 16:16:44 UTC  |  Edited by: fukier
CCP Fozzie wrote:
V'Kanth Agalder wrote:
“if you could fly it before, you can fly it now”

Does this apply to command ships as well? I note the added skill requirements - armoured warfare V etc. will these also be given to characters who can currently fly a Damnation but won't be able to after the expansion?


Because of the way nested skill requirements work in EVE, skills like Armored Warfare 5 will be required to train the Command Ships skill but if someone has already trained the skill the change will not affect them.


ok so from what i understand is i can already fly an astate

but after the changes i will have to train for 3 months so i can fly it again?Straight

that really sucks tbh...

what happened to the whole if you can already fly it moto?
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#144 - 2013-02-07 16:18:54 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
CCP Gargant wrote:
Almost one year ago, CCP Ytterbium announced plans to split the Destroyer and Battlecruiser skills into racial equivalents for each of the factions. This change will go through in the expansion planned for this summer and Ytterbium has penned all of the details into one dev blog.

You can read it all here.

Please remember that if you can fly it before the split, you can fly it after. This applies to all of the listed changes. We would love to hear your feedback and comments on the coming changes in this thread.



Ok i see some hole in case of skill reimbursement.
This char:
I fly electronic attack ships, and use them ... but i dont have Long Range Targeting LvL 5 - other skills where more important.
So if i fly this now - will i get Long Range Targeting LvL 5 ?


No you wont get the Long Range Targeting skill at 5.

Yes you can still fly your EAS.

You may also feel special about having circumvented the new pre-reqs.

Simple rule is simple: If you could fly it before, you can fly it after.

You don't need the new pre-reqs if you already have the skill, NOR will you get them for free.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Sergi Arro
Organized Chaos IZS
Aggressively Passive Bears
#145 - 2013-02-07 16:20:25 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
V'Kanth Agalder wrote:
“if you could fly it before, you can fly it now”

Does this apply to command ships as well? I note the added skill requirements - armoured warfare V etc. will these also be given to characters who can currently fly a Damnation but won't be able to after the expansion?


Because of the way nested skill requirements work in EVE, skills like Armored Warfare 5 will be required to train the Command Ships skill but if someone has already trained the skill the change will not affect them.



I have a similar question regarding this. What about carrier pilots who only have Jump Drive Operation at I (the minimum) just to pilot the ship.

The blog says:
-Adding the Jump Fuel Conservation skill at 4 as prerequisite
-Adding the Jump Drive Calibration skill at 3 as prerequisite (which itself requires the Jump Drive Operation skill trained at 5)

But it also says the whole "all the affected ships will still be flyable even after the change with no fancy reimbursement, provided you can fly them on Tranquility right now."

Will we not need to train the new skills (will they be given, etc.)?

Thanks
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#146 - 2013-02-07 16:21:36 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
FinalFlash84 wrote:
According to your explanation, shouldn't the DD prereqs (like Science V, EPW V and AWU V) also be added to the titan?

edit:
Also Fighter V and EW V for supercarriers


Ideally, yes, but we wanted to keep close hard training times, so we had to take a pick between the Doomsday and the Jump Portal.
Any chance you could go through DD skill and prune out Energy Pulse Weapons V? That seems like a throwback from when DDs were aoe bursts...

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War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#147 - 2013-02-07 16:22:16 UTC
Haifisch Zahne wrote:
It is false and misleading to say "If you can fly it now, you will be able to fly it after the changes."

You only mean, "We will break the rules at the time of the change *just this one time*".

It is absolutely not necessary that someone has the required skills to fly a ship they can fly now. The "Keep your Medical Clone Insurance Up-to-Date" is a sad excuse to cover-up the changes made which truly could affect the ability to fly a ship one can fly now.
...

Again, more reason to give us skills that we will ACTUALLY need to fly the ships we can fly now rather than just play lip service and give excuses that it will be OUR FAULT if we get podded without insurance.


It is always your fault if you get podded without a proper clone update. You just want free skill points. Move along.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Waista
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#148 - 2013-02-07 16:24:41 UTC
So there's an opportunity for people who do not have Command Ships injected but have (or will have) BC5 and Spaceship-Command-5.

They can just train Leadership to 5, Warfare Link Specialist to 4, and inject the Command Ships skill before the change comes into effect .

This way they never had to train the Fleet/Field hull prerequisites and will not have to train the Warfare Link skills to 5. Is my understanding correct?
Drosal Inkunen
Spreadsheeters
#149 - 2013-02-07 16:25:58 UTC
Haifisch Zahne wrote:
No, it doesn't come down to not reading the devblog-- but maybe you should with an open mind to problems that might exist for *OTHER* players.

The problem is that the new nested requirements are not necessarily skills some (obviously other) players HAD.



Drosal Inkunen wrote:
Bariolage wrote:
Most thorough blog post ever. 6 pages of questions in 3 hours.

A lot of the questions are the same people asking the same thing. It was answered in the dev blog and answered several times in the thread.

It all comes down to people not knowing how nested requirements work.

(Also quite a few people not knowing the difference between the "X Warfare" skill and the "X Warfare Specialist" skill.



I just double checked and none of the ships had the requirements to actually fly them changed, except to be lower and the same skills.

It affects people who can't fly the ship yet, not those who can fly it now. Most of the changes were to what is required to train the actual skills required to fly the ship.
These "other" players you accuse me of not having an open mind to can still use their ships. If they can't use the ship, then they now know to either train it quickly or start down the new skill path.
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#150 - 2013-02-07 16:27:17 UTC
Waista wrote:
So there's an opportunity for people who do not have Command Ships injected but have (or will have) BC5 and Spaceship-Command-5.

They can just train Leadership to 5, Warfare Link Specialist to 4, and inject the Command Ships skill before the change comes into effect .

This way they never had to train the Fleet/Field hull prerequisites and will not have to train the Warfare Link skills to 5. Is my understanding correct?


Without double-checking your actual requirements, yes. You're thinking along the right path.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#151 - 2013-02-07 16:28:07 UTC
Waista wrote:
So there's an opportunity for people who do not have Command Ships injected but have (or will have) BC5 and Spaceship-Command-5.

They can just train Leadership to 5, Warfare Link Specialist to 4, and inject the Command Ships skill before the change comes into effect .

This way they never had to train the Fleet/Field hull prerequisites and will not have to train the Warfare Link skills to 5. Is my understanding correct?


as i understood, they will be stuck to the level of command ship they have the day of the update, and will not be able to skill it more after the update without gettin the new prereq first
Ethan Revenant
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#152 - 2013-02-07 16:28:24 UTC
Waista wrote:
So there's an opportunity for people who do not have Command Ships injected but have (or will have) BC5 and Spaceship-Command-5.

They can just train Leadership to 5, Warfare Link Specialist to 4, and inject the Command Ships skill before the change comes into effect .

This way they never had to train the Fleet/Field hull prerequisites and will not have to train the Warfare Link skills to 5. Is my understanding correct?


Correct. Now is the time to grandfather yourself into any ship class you can currently access now that will require different prereqs this summer.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#153 - 2013-02-07 16:29:19 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
V'Kanth Agalder wrote:
“if you could fly it before, you can fly it now”

Does this apply to command ships as well? I note the added skill requirements - armoured warfare V etc. will these also be given to characters who can currently fly a Damnation but won't be able to after the expansion?


Because of the way nested skill requirements work in EVE, skills like Armored Warfare 5 will be required to train the Command Ships skill but if someone has already trained the skill the change will not affect them.


So you are actually saying is some ships we can fly now, we won't be able to fly after this mess is implemented.
I don't have a real problem with it, since you can't do much with a Damnation without that skill.

However, this whole plan is pandering to low SP players climbing into ships they should not be flying.
Flying a BS requires a ton more support skills than any ship skills.
By fast-tracking the ability to climb into larger ships, newer players will also bypass the gameplay time (also called experience) necessary to recognize the need to learn many, many unglamorous, but critical ship support skills, before they climb into an expensive hull.

We are going to see ever MORE people running around in pricey ships who can't even fit a T2 tank.

The whole concept you are implementing is idiotic.
You would far better serve the new player community by creating a guide that details all the ship support skills and why people should train the vast majority to V before climbing into any ship more expensive than a T1 cruiser.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#154 - 2013-02-07 16:31:14 UTC
My god. Read the damn thread.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Adaahh Gee
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#155 - 2013-02-07 16:31:22 UTC
For sale: Iteron's Mk1 thru Mk4, now no longer required, require funds to purchase Iteron 5 BPO. Lol
Pasha Cracken
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#156 - 2013-02-07 16:32:52 UTC
I do like most of the changes..

However as a capital pilot I do not agree with the Jump fuel and Jump drive cal skills being required. The way it is not is fine because it allows there to be a definition between an "average" capital pilot and a great capital pilot because they dedicate more time to the skills.

It also allows for super pilots to train a sitter alt in a reasonable time. Most of that additional time would come from training those fuel and cal skills, without it the training time would be much quicker and not 146 days.

I also would like to ask this. You state that "if you can fly it now you can fly it after" Does this mean that pilots with the bare minimum in skills to fly a archon with NO jump fuel or jump cal trained will get bumped to that level?

If the answer is yes, then please pass me the same amount in skill points so I can put them somewhere else..... I spent my time training JDC 5 and JFC 4 so I can be a good capital pilot, if people are just going to get bumped to the required levels then there needs to be some sort of compensation to people who actually spent their training time to reach it anyways.
Garai Nolen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#157 - 2013-02-07 16:33:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Garai Nolen
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Marsaac wrote:
Question, what happened to "if you could fly it before you can fly it now."? My alt can fly a fenrir now with Advanced Spaceships 4, after patch it will require 5, therefor she won't be able to fly it anymore right? That seems a bit bullshit to me.


You will still be able to fly it. The top skill in the tree is the only one that actually determines your ability to fly a ship. The Fenrir before and after will require:

Primary:
Advanced Spaceship Command Level I

Secondary:
Minmatar Freighter Level I

So you can fly it even though you do not have Advanced Spaceship Command at Level V.


I don't understand why you aren't removing the Advanced Spaceship Command Level I as the primary skill entirely for freighters and replacing it with the relevant racial freighter? As per the nested skill explanation, if Minmatar Freighter Level I was the primary (and only) skill for a Fenrir, you'd still be able to continue flying it since you'd already have Minmatar Freighter Level I even if you didn't have the new ASC level V prereq.

Right now with the planned changes, leaving ASC level I as the "primary" skill is super-confusing for new training (easy to miss that you really need level V as a pre-req in the secondary tree) and seems entirely pointless.

On a similar vein of reducing confusion, any chance on renaming "Capital Ships" and "Capital Industrial Ships" to something like "Capital Spaceship Command" and "Industrial Spaceship Command"? I know those are more verbose but it would make a lot more sense as to where those skills fit in the overall scheme.
tgl3
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#158 - 2013-02-07 16:34:43 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
V'Kanth Agalder wrote:
“if you could fly it before, you can fly it now”

Does this apply to command ships as well? I note the added skill requirements - armoured warfare V etc. will these also be given to characters who can currently fly a Damnation but won't be able to after the expansion?


Because of the way nested skill requirements work in EVE, skills like Armored Warfare 5 will be required to train the Command Ships skill but if someone has already trained the skill the change will not affect them.


So you are actually saying is some ships we can fly now, we won't be able to fly after this mess is implemented.
I don't have a real problem with it, since you can't do much with a Damnation without that skill.


Any ships you can fly BEFORE the change (as in you have the skill trained e.g. Command Ships) you can fly after the change. All that is changing is the requirement to inject the skillbook (e.g. injecting Command Ships). If you already have it injected, you are fine.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#159 - 2013-02-07 16:34:55 UTC
Pasha Cracken wrote:
I also would like to ask this. You state that "if you can fly it now you can fly it after" Does this mean that pilots with the bare minimum in skills to fly a archon with NO jump fuel or jump cal trained will get bumped to that level?

The answer is quite obviously no.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
tgl3
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#160 - 2013-02-07 16:36:27 UTC
Pasha Cracken wrote:


I also would like to ask this. You state that "if you can fly it now you can fly it after" Does this mean that pilots with the bare minimum in skills to fly a archon with NO jump fuel or jump cal trained will get bumped to that level?

No, since you have the Amarr Carrier skill trained/injected already, you do not then need the new pre-requisites to inject it. Because it is already injected.