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Dev blog: The great ship skill change of summer 2013

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Neugeniko
Insight Securities
#841 - 2013-02-15 20:23:03 UTC
Hi CCP Gargant,
Given the industrial ship skill changes does this mean
industrial ship balancing is due this summer?

Cheers Neug

Indices/Mining Simulator V6.41 UPDATED*

Daily Forge Mineral Sales Summary V1.5

Neug's Prime Industrial Real Estate V1.3
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#842 - 2013-02-15 21:51:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Now, FC's will have to have the char's entire skillset examined to see if they are fit to fly the ship the pilot shows up in, because guess what CCP, just because someone can climb into the cockpit of a BS and turn the key, does not mean they have any business near that hull.

The only difference between now and after the changes so far as BS's go is trading Frig IV and cruiser IV for destroyer III and BC III. Note none of the supports needed to fly a BS efficiently were included in either set of prerequisites. So really, nothing changed.

For cap ships BS V didn't actually help you in any way so not seeing the loss there either.

Also why should CCP have to ensure a person is proficient with a hull before being able to step into it? Since when is denying people the choice to experiment and fail indicative of a sandbox?
Keine Arvok
Semper Fidelis Foedero
#843 - 2013-02-17 12:19:25 UTC
I am concered about the Orca, barge, exumer and Freighter changes

I have trained the current requirement that bonus the ships role

however in this change i will lose the ability to fly the freighter as i do not have advance spaceship command V. i will also lose barge and exumer to the frigate skill

Also will adding ore industrial skill to Orca change or add role bonuses per skill?

I need more details to these changes than "if i can fly it now, i can fly it later"
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#844 - 2013-02-17 12:51:21 UTC
Keine Arvok wrote:
I am concered about the Orca, barge, exumer and Freighter changes

I have trained the current requirement that bonus the ships role

however in this change i will lose the ability to fly the freighter as i do not have advance spaceship command V. i will also lose barge and exumer to the frigate skill

Also will adding ore industrial skill to Orca change or add role bonuses per skill?

I need more details to these changes than "if i can fly it now, i can fly it later"


If you think that "if i can fly it now, i can fly it later" means that you can't fly it later, no amount of explaining can help you.

.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#845 - 2013-02-17 12:51:44 UTC
Keine Arvok wrote:
I am concered about the Orca, barge, exumer and Freighter changes

I have trained the current requirement that bonus the ships role

however in this change i will lose the ability to fly the freighter as i do not have advance spaceship command V. i will also lose barge and exumer to the frigate skill

Also will adding ore industrial skill to Orca change or add role bonuses per skill?

I need more details to these changes than "if i can fly it now, i can fly it later"



No, go back and read the devblog.

"if i can fly it now, i can fly it later" is entirely true. So you won't lose the ability.

The requirements you're concerned about, are the requirements to /inject/ the skill. The only things you need to actually fly a ship are the top level requirements. So, for a freighter: Racial freighter 1, ASC 1. for example

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#846 - 2013-02-17 13:06:00 UTC
Quintaar Syes-Khilorn wrote:
Okay, 42 pages of arguing... and it seems the 'veterans' are bitter again.

When people are almost crying about how bad is to be a veteran in this game my blood is almost boiling.The 'noobs' will catch up with you? Great. Go suck vacuum. I hate that part of this game. I cry for you really. Flying billion ISK ships, and making tons of money an hour could be sooo hard on you.

I am not a new player, got 20 mill-ish skill points. Problem is, I am not an 'alt'. This is the guy I am playing with, I try to make ISK with and pay to CCP to train. I can not even finish a lvl 4 mission without help yet.

'CCP' said I can compete with the veterans if i specialize on something, so I did. Spent a lot of that train time on leadership skills and a lot on becoming an Orca pilot.

I can fly an Orca, and give leadership bonus. Minmatar ships only, as these many SPs does not give you the luxury to cross train - so the whole destroyer and battlecruiser skill issue is irrelevant for me. The command ship changes will not hurt me, as Weapon Upgrades V (while it was a pain to train) is a ussefull skill. But I do feel sorry for those who trained Logistics V for the other type of command ships...

But 1.024 million skill points on Mining Barge V hurts me. 5% of my whole. On something which will be absolutely irrelevant in the future for me, as I never want to fly an exhumer (or a barge for that matter).

So if I see another smile from a CCP rep, or mod or whoever saying politely but firmly that "screw you we just take your money and hey you got something in return" ... well I might be inclined to take my business elsewhere.


Didn't you notice the Mining Barge V prerequisite earlier, when you started training for an Orca?

Why did you just gloss over it then? Anyway, I mined enough minerals to pay for my Orca, so they barge skill was useful.



.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#847 - 2013-02-17 22:41:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Andendare
Any chance we could get Propulsion Jamming requirement on Dic to be reduced to just IV? Getting Racial Destroyer V is already commitment enough, considering that you only get the one T2 destroyer hull with it. (Unlike the Frigate V and Cruiser V skills, which open up many, many T2 hulls.)

Plus, it'd add some time in between training Dics and HICs. As it is now, the increased skill required (beyond Cruiser V) is just Graviton physics IV. Giving more training time (by having Prop Jam V) gives a pilot more time to spend and learn to fly Dics.

edit: Yes, I know this would allow people to train faster into Dics, but again, its only the one hull that's very specialized. And the probe launcher would of course go to IV as well.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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Quintaar Syes-Khilorn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#848 - 2013-02-18 11:58:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Quintaar Syes-Khilorn
Roime wrote:
Didn't you notice the Mining Barge V prerequisite earlier, when you started training for an Orca?

Why did you just gloss over it then? Anyway, I mined enough minerals to pay for my Orca, so they barge skill was useful.


You are a missing the point - by a mile. Yes, I hated the skill then too, but it was a prerequisite to fly the ship I wanted. It was a timesink for me, but I understand that CCP makes money from that - the subscription for one more month. But now - after they got my money - they are making the skill irrelevant. And THAT makes me furious.

No respec, no refund - that is the CCP policy carved in stone. Again, I do understand - our mistakes, wasted skill points are MONEY for them. Additional training times for the specialized characters to do anything else would be nullified if they can just redistribute the skill points on a whim.

But that also should mean CCP can not change the rules on a whim. Of course it does not. So they invented this "If you can fly it now..." madness. They can say - hey you still can do all the thing you could before. But now I have a skill at level 5 which count as 'wasted'. As if I made a mistake on my training queue. I did not. Why do I have to pay for it?
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#849 - 2013-02-18 12:43:58 UTC
Quintaar Syes-Khilorn wrote:
Roime wrote:
Didn't you notice the Mining Barge V prerequisite earlier, when you started training for an Orca?

Why did you just gloss over it then? Anyway, I mined enough minerals to pay for my Orca, so they barge skill was useful.


You are a missing the point - by a mile. Yes, I hated the skill then too, but it was a prerequisite to fly the ship I wanted. It was a timesink for me, but I understand that CCP makes money from that - the subscription for one more month. But now - after they got my money - they are making the skill irrelevant. And THAT makes me furious.

No respec, no refund - that is the CCP policy carved in stone. Again, I do understand - our mistakes, wasted skill points are MONEY for them. Additional training times for the specialized characters to do anything else would be nullified if they can just redistribute the skill points on a whim.

But that also should mean CCP can not change the rules on a whim. Of course it does not. So they invented this "If you can fly it now..." madness. They can say - hey you still can do all the thing you could before. But now I have a skill at level 5 which count as 'wasted'. As if I made a mistake on my training queue. I did not. Why do I have to pay for it?


Because you've been using the Orca already.

Do you complain when prices are reduced on something you've already bought?

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Quintaar Syes-Khilorn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#850 - 2013-02-18 13:39:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Quintaar Syes-Khilorn
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Do you complain when prices are reduced on something you've already bought?


Do not mix up ISK with real money.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#851 - 2013-02-18 14:07:22 UTC
Quintaar Syes-Khilorn wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Do you complain when prices are reduced on something you've already bought?


Do not mix up ISK with real money.


Not sure if he's referring to ingame buying.

Have you ever bought a computer game just to find it got a lot cheaper after a few months? Did you try to get some money back?

Is it possible that you're simply spoiled because CCP are usually really careful about not degrading the value of your already spent game time? We should be glad things got more consistent instead of the constant whining by orca and capital pilots.
Quintaar Syes-Khilorn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#852 - 2013-02-18 14:39:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Quintaar Syes-Khilorn
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Not sure if he's referring to ingame buying.

Have you ever bought a computer game just to find it got a lot cheaper after a few months? Did you try to get some money back?

Is it possible that you're simply spoiled because CCP are usually really careful about not degrading the value of your already spent game time? We should be glad things got more consistent instead of the constant whining by orca and capital pilots.


In the real world you pay premium to get something early - using your example, you pay a lot more for a game at release day, than a few months later, as you want to play it sooner. Also in the real world there are shops which has a "lowest price guarantied" where they give your money back if you find it cheaper anywhere else. In EVE there is only one point of real money entry: you pay for your subscription (or buy a PLEX ingame thous make someone else pay for it).
I am not spoiled, have not got the game time for that. I am just reaching the point - skill point wise - where I can play the game, enjoy it, and not feel inferior to all the veterans. Well, at least not hopelessly inferior.
Is now expressing opinions about things considered "constant whining"? Thank you for clarifying that. Problem is, if you do not do that, they think everything is quite alright - and do as they please.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#853 - 2013-02-18 15:06:30 UTC
Quintaar Syes-Khilorn wrote:
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Not sure if he's referring to ingame buying.

Have you ever bought a computer game just to find it got a lot cheaper after a few months? Did you try to get some money back?

Is it possible that you're simply spoiled because CCP are usually really careful about not degrading the value of your already spent game time? We should be glad things got more consistent instead of the constant whining by orca and capital pilots.


In the real world you pay premium to get something early - using your example, you pay a lot more for a game at release day, than a few months later, as you want to play it sooner. Also in the real world there are shops which has a "lowest price guarantied" where they give your money back if you find it cheaper anywhere else. In EVE there is only one point of real money entry: you pay for your subscription (or buy a PLEX ingame thous make someone else pay for it).
I am not spoiled, have not got the game time for that. I am just reaching the point - skill point wise - where I can play the game, enjoy it, and not feel inferior to all the veterans. Well, at least not hopelessly inferior.
Is now expressing opinions about things considered "constant whining"? Thank you for clarifying that. Problem is, if you do not do that, they think everything is quite alright - and do as they please.



I was equating you 'spending time' on getting everything for the Orca skill, with 'spending money' on something else.

Because you've had the benefit of the Orca, haven't you? You paid what it cost, skill point wise, to get it. Now you're demanding that, because other people will be able to get it 'cheaper', that you should get a refund.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Quintaar Syes-Khilorn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#854 - 2013-02-18 16:07:35 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Because you've had the benefit of the Orca, haven't you? You paid what it cost, skill point wise, to get it. Now you're demanding that, because other people will be able to get it 'cheaper', that you should get a refund.


Yes, in that context you are right. But hear me out.

A character's usefulness is measured by the things he can do, which comes from skill point. Those are accumulated by training. That takes time. Does not matter how much you play, do not get 'XP' to spend, can not use in-game currency to buy more skills. A character started 5 years ago will always have a 5 years advantage.

So a new player has to specialize. Make a plan, calculate time and skill points to archive what he wants. Re-maps, implants ... If you change the rules mid-flight, that "now you need that, not this" will hurt them.

Yes, the changes are logical, more streamlined ship progression, prerequisites that make sense - those are good. I guess you guys need more T2 destroyer hulls now as everyone has the skill at 5 (I do not, got more important things to train) but that is progress. Lowering the Orca training time by a month? That is stealing a month of subscription from me.

Its not that I made a mistake in my training plan, or did not pay attention and trained destroyer and battlecruiser skills to max to gain a lot of free skill points. I did everything right and still lost a month of training time toward what I want.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#855 - 2013-02-18 20:33:51 UTC
Quintaar Syes-Khilorn wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Because you've had the benefit of the Orca, haven't you? You paid what it cost, skill point wise, to get it. Now you're demanding that, because other people will be able to get it 'cheaper', that you should get a refund.


Yes, in that context you are right. But hear me out.

A character's usefulness is measured by the things he can do, which comes from skill point. Those are accumulated by training. That takes time. Does not matter how much you play, do not get 'XP' to spend, can not use in-game currency to buy more skills. A character started 5 years ago will always have a 5 years advantage.

So a new player has to specialize. Make a plan, calculate time and skill points to archive what he wants. Re-maps, implants ... If you change the rules mid-flight, that "now you need that, not this" will hurt them.

Yes, the changes are logical, more streamlined ship progression, prerequisites that make sense - those are good. I guess you guys need more T2 destroyer hulls now as everyone has the skill at 5 (I do not, got more important things to train) but that is progress. Lowering the Orca training time by a month? That is stealing a month of subscription from me.

Its not that I made a mistake in my training plan, or did not pay attention and trained destroyer and battlecruiser skills to max to gain a lot of free skill points. I did everything right and still lost a month of training time toward what I want.

In trade you got the use of the ship several months earlier than anyone wishing to bypass the prerequisite. You weren't hurt so to speak, as any use of the ship prior to an expansion we don't even have the exact date of would not be possible without your current skills.
Quintaar Syes-Khilorn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#856 - 2013-02-18 22:13:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Quintaar Syes-Khilorn
Yes, and after the "patch" there could be someone who can do all the things I can, but has almost 1,5 mill skill points more toward useful skills. Thank you CCP so much for specializing. Mining IV, Industry V, Mining Barge V - all learned just to be able to help out as a leader, which in itself is already a big commitment skill-wise.

My problem is not the fact that he will get the Orca sooner, but the fact that I my skills will be irrelevant - wont give me any bonus, or bring any new opportunities in play. I became the booster in the corp because I hate mining.

But let's take another route to my problem. Are you familiar how characters are priced on the trading forum? How much can I get for a Leadership 'alt' with a few million wasted skills?
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#857 - 2013-02-18 22:20:43 UTC
Quintaar Syes-Khilorn wrote:
Yes, and after the "patch" there could be someone who can do all the things I can, but has almost 1,5 mill skill points more toward useful skills.


In fact MOST of the players who can do all the things you can with less SP invested, will NOT have those 1.5M saved in more useful skills, for the simple reason that they will probably be 10+M BEHIND you.

Would you please get it that being older is a HUGE bonus in this game?
Quintaar Syes-Khilorn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#858 - 2013-02-18 22:36:09 UTC
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote:
Would you please get it that being older is a HUGE bonus in this game?

Yes, and that is already my biggest problem with the game. It means that the only way to enjoy this game is buy a character with a lot of skill points. But, you can not rename them (so you are stuck with names like "alttoon4561", and inherit the history of the toon as well. He was a scammer, a thief, a spy? Enjoy, try to join a corporate ...

So yes I want my skill points which were prerequisites refunded. IF I still think those skills are useful I will buy 'em back anyway. If not? Let me spend it on the new prerequisites and the rest as I like.
Haifisch Zahne
Hraka Manufacture GmbH
#859 - 2013-02-18 22:48:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Haifisch Zahne
No, don't be a troll.

All of these changes have thrown my skill planning into havoc and I have lost weeks of training while neural mapped wrong.

Trolls will be trolls, I guess.



Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Haifisch Zahne wrote:
"Removal and refund of all Destroyers and Battlecruisers skill books at the NPC order price."

So, massive headaches = 990,000 ISK refund.

Stop the pretense of doing us favors.

So you have a massive headache over some uninjected skillbooks?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#860 - 2013-02-18 22:55:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Haifisch Zahne wrote:
No, don't be a troll.

All of these changes have thrown my skill planning into havoc and I have lost weeks of training while neural mapped wrong.

Trolls will be trolls, I guess.



Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Haifisch Zahne wrote:
"Removal and refund of all Destroyers and Battlecruisers skill books at the NPC order price."

So, massive headaches = 990,000 ISK refund.

Stop the pretense of doing us favors.

So you have a massive headache over some uninjected skillbooks?

I asked because your question was poorly elaborated. You didn't even mention the specific source of your headache (changes in general/specific ships/etc?). This made it hard to make what I suppose you would consider a non-troll response, especially considering the only thing you did mention was the skillbook refund which, unless I'm mistaken only affects uninjected skillbooks. As such if you have the in your head and are training them to maximize the SP redistribution it's a complete non-issue for you.

But that was all you gave, hence my response.