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Dev blog: The great ship skill change of summer 2013

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#521 - 2013-02-08 16:45:40 UTC
Onyx Nyx wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Onyx Nyx wrote:
I am concerned, and I have heard murmurings, that CCP will not reimburse the current battleship 5 requirement to fly capital ships. I have two characters whose sole purpose is to fly carriers and dreads and once these changes go through, my two characters and everyone else that has characters for dedicated capital roles is going have 1,984,000 SP of wasted training time.

Needless to say, if these changes go through without reimbursement, it is a ****-move and huge loss of goodwill on CCP's part.


If we ever delete the Battleship skills from the game we'll reimburse the skillpoints.

We're not taking a single thing away from you with this change.


Not really what I asked, but I suppose that is the best answer I'll get.

That actually is exactly what you asked. You just didn't get the answer you wanted.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
#522 - 2013-02-08 16:50:55 UTC
Roime wrote:
Does "Summer" refer to like May-ish or more like July-ish?

/fishing for a general approximation of release schedule, things got suddenly quite tight because of the cap change :o


Revelations II June 19, 2007
Empyrean Age June 10, 2008

Apocrypha was released earlier than Summer intentionally

Tyrannis May 28, 2010
Incarna June 21, 2011
Inferno May 22, 2012



Give you an idea?
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#523 - 2013-02-08 16:53:26 UTC
Thanks, it does :)

.
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#524 - 2013-02-08 17:19:03 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Alrigh folks, good news.

We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore.

Ex:

You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.


Hope that's clear - trying my very best Sad


Any thoughts on how likely it will be that implementing this kind of change with introduce some big bugs?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#525 - 2013-02-08 17:22:12 UTC
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Alrigh folks, good news.

We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore.

Ex:

You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.


Hope that's clear - trying my very best Sad


Any thoughts on how likely it will be that implementing this kind of change with introduce some big bugs?

That's like asking somebody to give you the likelihood that your computer is going to crash sometime in the next week.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
#526 - 2013-02-08 17:22:31 UTC
Bubbleboylol wrote:
I know most of you have been here longer then me, but do these changes not worry you at all? I have played almost every MMO out there and this is the only one that me and my friends have stuck with through the years. Eve is slowly shifting to accommodate a different player base then there core players. I say that because if you look at the shift in popular games as World of Warcraft or age of conan both i have played for a long time, they made it so easy to do anything that it's not worth the wait or time to even play anymore. They have pushed out there core players be
cause it got overrun by the ( i want it now players ) and are now trying to make and keep them happy, that play get everything they want and then get bored and move on. i see this happening to EVE slowly and it is sad because working and building anticipation to own and or use a ship and know that anyone else has to put in same time or more time and effort to get the same or better. The whole reason the market is as successful as it is in EVE is due to the fact that it takes months to skill train a ship. Don't forget why there is all these ( stupid repeditive tedious ) little things you have to do is what keeps you ahead of other players and sets each player apart from each other and creates competition between others as most people get lazy, so if the game caters to that then people will get bored because the game will then be to easy and they will ask for ( more ) (new) etc and so on and never be happy. The point is no one will ever be happy so you have to decide when it is just pure laziness or if it really is a problem. ( most the time though it is just laziness ) I am not saying all the changes are bad but some are just way to easy... Mix it up add new skills etc do not take them away from any ship if anything add more. The realism of space and the depth of the skills that go into EVE is what is so intriguing to anyone that starts or is still playing EVE, Do you see pilots flying in real life 747 jets without first learning everything about most every plane including prop planes and small jets before they can even touch a 747? That is my point. I understand it is a game but how many space games offer the realism that EVE offers>?? We like the game hard to play as that is what keeps you and I coming back. If i want an easy game ill go download an app on the ipod or play COD etc. We have many options to play easy games. The people whining about how long it takes is just the type that ( want it now ) and have no patience. I know i would not keep playing if i could just get everything as easy as in WOW or other games the like. As that is why i do not play them anymore and why they have to keep screwing up other games so much because they did not know that they pushed there main player base out.

Good day fellow pilots! Be heard don't let them cater to the LAziessss!


+10 on that.
As an oldskool gamer I've lost 90% of the titles I used to love this way. Eve is the last one I still play and would be hurt if they would kill it. Last passion I lost this way was Diablo 3 this year. D2 was a fantastic game which took a lot of time to learn and an enormous grind to find what you want. Blizzard just killed it. When I played 3, I had been pumped up and waiting for 6 years. It felt like playing supermario back on the nintendo 8 bit. One directional and simple as ****.
I was going to play it together with my 14 year old. He plays COD a lot and I had been telling him how much it sucked for being so simple. After diablo 3 came out I felt so embarrassed about it's quality and simplicity that I didn't even bother introducing him to it.

btw. Next title to be ruined is the maxis classic SimCity. Even before release I can see from the gameplay videos that SimCity5 is an oversimplified disaster. It doesn't even include taxsystem and spreadsheets/graphs anymore :(.

Please CCP , you have a great community , tolerant , educated , adults averaging 30 , do not ruin this game , do not turn it into a 10 year olds play thing.

Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first.
Irregessa
Obfuscation and Reflections
#527 - 2013-02-08 17:23:28 UTC
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Alrigh folks, good news.

We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore.

Ex:

You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence and you will now still be able to train Amarr Freighter past 1 as long as you have the skill injected.


Hope that's clear - trying my very best Sad


Any thoughts on how likely it will be that implementing this kind of change with introduce some big bugs?



That is why SiSi exists. I hope they make this change there well before it sees the light of day on TQ.
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#528 - 2013-02-08 17:31:22 UTC
Radius Prime wrote:
Bubbleboylol wrote:
I know most of you have been here longer then me, but do these changes not worry you at all? I have played almost every MMO out there and this is the only one that me and my friends have stuck with through the years. Eve is slowly shifting to accommodate a different player base then there core players. I say that because if you look at the shift in popular games as World of Warcraft or age of conan both i have played for a long time, they made it so easy to do anything that it's not worth the wait or time to even play anymore. They have pushed out there core players be
cause it got overrun by the ( i want it now players ) and are now trying to make and keep them happy, that play get everything they want and then get bored and move on. i see this happening to EVE slowly and it is sad because working and building anticipation to own and or use a ship and know that anyone else has to put in same time or more time and effort to get the same or better. The whole reason the market is as successful as it is in EVE is due to the fact that it takes months to skill train a ship. Don't forget why there is all these ( stupid repeditive tedious ) little things you have to do is what keeps you ahead of other players and sets each player apart from each other and creates competition between others as most people get lazy, so if the game caters to that then people will get bored because the game will then be to easy and they will ask for ( more ) (new) etc and so on and never be happy. The point is no one will ever be happy so you have to decide when it is just pure laziness or if it really is a problem. ( most the time though it is just laziness ) I am not saying all the changes are bad but some are just way to easy... Mix it up add new skills etc do not take them away from any ship if anything add more. The realism of space and the depth of the skills that go into EVE is what is so intriguing to anyone that starts or is still playing EVE, Do you see pilots flying in real life 747 jets without first learning everything about most every plane including prop planes and small jets before they can even touch a 747? That is my point. I understand it is a game but how many space games offer the realism that EVE offers>?? We like the game hard to play as that is what keeps you and I coming back. If i want an easy game ill go download an app on the ipod or play COD etc. We have many options to play easy games. The people whining about how long it takes is just the type that ( want it now ) and have no patience. I know i would not keep playing if i could just get everything as easy as in WOW or other games the like. As that is why i do not play them anymore and why they have to keep screwing up other games so much because they did not know that they pushed there main player base out.

Good day fellow pilots! Be heard don't let them cater to the LAziessss!


+10 on that.
As an oldskool gamer I've lost 90% of the titles I used to love this way. Eve is the last one I still play and would be hurt if they would kill it. Last passion I lost this way was Diablo 3 this year. D2 was a fantastic game which took a lot of time to learn and an enormous grind to find what you want. Blizzard just killed it. When I played 3, I had been pumped up and waiting for 6 years. It felt like playing supermario back on the nintendo 8 bit. One directional and simple as ****.
I was going to play it together with my 14 year old. He plays COD a lot and I had been telling him how much it sucked for being so simple. After diablo 3 came out I felt so embarrassed about it's quality and simplicity that I didn't even bother introducing him to it.

btw. Next title to be ruined is the maxis classic SimCity. Even before release I can see from the gameplay videos that SimCity5 is an oversimplified disaster. It doesn't even include taxsystem and spreadsheets/graphs anymore :(.

Please CCP , you have a great community , tolerant , educated , adults averaging 30 , do not ruin this game , do not turn it into a 10 year olds play thing.


I don't see why letting players rush into more expensive ships sooner seems so horrible to you bittervets, it gives you tastier and squishier targets to blow up and more people to sell expensive toys to. Sounds like whining about a nonissue to me.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#529 - 2013-02-08 17:36:59 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Clone costs in their current form are not something we as a design department are happy with. Beyond that we can't make commitments on the issue at this time.


Please for the love of god just remove clone upgrade costs. I wrote an article about how bad they are. Ignore the insurance change part as I was just using it as an example of where to move the ISK sink to (bad example I know), but just focus on the rest.

CLONE UPGRADE BILLS: A PAINFUL THROWBACK

Did you read it?
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#530 - 2013-02-08 17:37:06 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Onyx Nyx wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Onyx Nyx wrote:
I am concerned, and I have heard murmurings, that CCP will not reimburse the current battleship 5 requirement to fly capital ships. I have two characters whose sole purpose is to fly carriers and dreads and once these changes go through, my two characters and everyone else that has characters for dedicated capital roles is going have 1,984,000 SP of wasted training time.

Needless to say, if these changes go through without reimbursement, it is a ****-move and huge loss of goodwill on CCP's part.


If we ever delete the Battleship skills from the game we'll reimburse the skillpoints.

We're not taking a single thing away from you with this change.


Not really what I asked, but I suppose that is the best answer I'll get.

That actually is exactly what you asked. You just didn't get the answer you wanted.


I wish CCP would answer it with a yes. Reimburse people who have BS - V. Many people only have it because its a prerequisite for capitals. If they're changing the prerequisite they need to reimburse those with more than the prerequisite, especially in this case.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#531 - 2013-02-08 17:40:40 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore.

That's excellent to hear. One thing I have a question about is the "if you can fly it now you can fly it after" mantra. What if I can't fly it now, but have the skill?

Based on current requirements, if I train up Command Ships right now my skills will allow me to fly two races' worth of Field Command Ships (2 of the 8 available). After the expansion I'll be able to fly all Command Ships from all races (8 of 8) because the requirements change dramatically. Is that correct?

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
stoicfaux
#532 - 2013-02-08 18:11:19 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
knobber Jobbler wrote:

I wish CCP would answer it with a yes. Reimburse people who have BS - V. Many people only have it because its a prerequisite for capitals. If they're changing the prerequisite they need to reimburse those with more than the prerequisite, especially in this case.

Geez Louise. You aren't losing anything with the prereq changes.

Asking for reimbursement for BS V makes as much sense as graduating from a university, working in your field for a decade and then asking for a tuition refund for a few credit hours when your university changes the prereqs to one of the courses you took.

edit: removed quote spam

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#533 - 2013-02-08 18:12:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Freighdee Katt
Karl Hobb wrote:
Based on current requirements, if I train up Command Ships right now my skills will allow me to fly two races' worth of Field Command Ships (2 of the 8 available). After the expansion I'll be able to fly all Command Ships from all races (8 of 8) because the requirements change dramatically. Is that correct?

You would have to post what skills you have now in order to find out if this is correct or not, but . . . maybe. If you have the Command Ships skill injected, and you have Battlecruiser V, AND you have all Cruiser skills to III, then after the change you would have all racial BC skills at V, and you would still have the Command Ships skill injected (so you can continue to train it to whatever level you want, regardless of whether you meet the new pre-reqs required to inject it or not). In that case you could sit in any of the Command Ship hulls regardless of race, because you would have the required skills of Racial BC V + Command Ships I for each of them.

Depending on what you have to train in order to get Command Ships I injected though, you might not be able to do it in the maximum time that could be left at this point, and you probably would not come out ahead anyway, since the new prereqs just for CS I itself will probably be a shorter train in most cases. However, you can and should get all Cruiser IIIs + BC V no matter what, and there is time for that. That way you are guaranteed to avoid the cross-racial BC grind, and you will be able to train up the generic skills only to get into all command hulls.

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#534 - 2013-02-08 18:22:35 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
knobber Jobbler wrote:

I wish CCP would answer it with a yes. Reimburse people who have BS - V. Many people only have it because its a prerequisite for capitals. If they're changing the prerequisite they need to reimburse those with more than the prerequisite, especially in this case.

Geez Louise. You aren't losing anything with the prereq changes.

Asking for reimbursement for BS V makes as much sense as graduating from a university, working in your field for a decade and then asking for a tuition refund for a few credit hours when your university changes the prereqs to one of the courses you took.

edit: removed quote spam

This is one of the best responses I've ever seen to one of the more annoying flavors of whining I've seen in this game.
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#535 - 2013-02-08 18:24:31 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We'll change the way training works so that you can still train the skills you have after change, even if you don't meet the prerequisite anymore.

That's excellent to hear. One thing I have a question about is the "if you can fly it now you can fly it after" mantra. What if I can't fly it now, but have the skill?

Based on current requirements, if I train up Command Ships right now my skills will allow me to fly two races' worth of Field Command Ships (2 of the 8 available). After the expansion I'll be able to fly all Command Ships from all races (8 of 8) because the requirements change dramatically. Is that correct?


You need the racial BC skills to V as well, and I''m pretty sure you've got that lined up by now, right? CCP won't remove skills you've injected, so you should be ready to sit in the 8 Command Ships once the change goes live.
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#536 - 2013-02-08 18:26:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Karl Hobb
Freighdee Katt wrote:
You would have to post what skills you have now in order to find out if this is correct or not, but . . . maybe.

I understand your mistrust in my ability to read prerequisites; this is EVE, after all.

If I trained Command Ships now (I'd need to bring Leadership to V and Warfare Links to IV), I could then sit in an Absolution (Amarr Cruiser V, HAC IV, Battlecruiser V) or an Astarte (Gallente Cruiser V, HAC IV, Battlecruiser V). Since I do not have the Logistics skill, I could not fly the other two Amarr and Gallente Command Ships.

After the expansion, the requirements on Commands Ships drop to {racial} Battlecruiser V and Command Ships I. This means that I can sit in every Command Ship, since Minmatar Cruiser IV, Caldari Cruiser IV, and a lack of Logistics skills are no longer holding me back. Furthermore, since I would have injected and trained Command Ships before the change, I would not have to train the various {type} Warfare skills.

Sounds like quite a deal to me.

Inkarr Hashur wrote:
CCP won't remove skills you've injected, so you should be ready to sit in the 8 Command Ships once the change goes live.

That's exactly what I suspect, it just sounds a little too good to be true.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#537 - 2013-02-08 18:33:09 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Freighdee Katt wrote:
You would have to post what skills you have now in order to find out if this is correct or not, but . . . maybe.

I understand your mistrust in my ability to read prerequisites; this is EVE, after all.

If I trained Command Ships now (I'd need to bring Leadership to V and Warfare Links to IV), I could then sit in an Absolution (Amarr Cruiser V, HAC IV, Battlecruiser V) or an Astarte (Gallente Cruiser V, HAC IV, Battlecruiser V). Since I do not have the Logistics skill, I could not fly the other two Amarr and Gallente Command Ships.

After the expansion, the requirements on Commands Ships drop to {racial} Battlecruiser V and Command Ships I. This means that I can sit in every Command Ship, since Minmatar Cruiser IV, Caldari Cruiser IV, and a lack of Logistics skills are no longer holding me back. Furthermore, since I would have injected and trained Command Ships before the change, I would not have to train the various {type} Warfare skills.

Sounds like quite a deal to me.

Inkarr Hashur wrote:
CCP won't remove skills you've injected, so you should be ready to sit in the 8 Command Ships once the change goes live.

That's exactly what I suspect, it just sounds a little too good to be true.


You also missed how they're adding 4 prereqs for the command ships skill, which you get to skip. That's the nice thing about being a low or mid-SP pilot right now, you get to pick and choose which prereqs you want to use to get into all these skills that are being changed this summer. Command Ships isn't unique in this respect, the entire expansion may seem to good to be true, but its all true.
Sinzor Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#538 - 2013-02-08 18:35:45 UTC
/tinfoil on
CCP is helping Test and Goons to bring even more meat-shield to dogpile everything - now in battleships.
Darkdood
Estrale Frontiers
#539 - 2013-02-08 18:35:58 UTC
Command ships concern me a little with the way you implemented them. I have a suggestion for a better way to do it???


Primary Skill
Amarr BC V

Secondary Skill
Command Ships I
-- Warfare Link Spec IV
-- 4 x Basic Warfare skills to lvl IV

Tertiary Skill
Armored Warfare Spec IV (obviously different depending on race)

Hmm. I didn't do the exact math but I'm sure that shortens the training time too much which I assume is unacceptable to CCP.

Not sure what to say, but forcing everyone to train the four basic warfare skills to V seems a little excessive.
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#540 - 2013-02-08 18:38:48 UTC
Darkdood wrote:
Command ships concern me a little with the way you implemented them. I have a suggestion for a better way to do it???


Primary Skill
Amarr BC V

Secondary Skill
Command Ships I
-- Warfare Link Spec IV
-- 4 x Basic Warfare skills to lvl IV

Tertiary Skill
Armored Warfare Spec IV (obviously different depending on race)

Hmm. I didn't do the exact math but I'm sure that shortens the training time too much which I assume is unacceptable to CCP.

Not sure what to say, but forcing everyone to train the four basic warfare skills to V seems a little excessive.


Your suggestion honestly makes more logical sense while also preventing people like me from grabbing up 8 T2 ships at the same time through a little short-cut. So honestly, its really what CCP should be doing rather than the current suggested implementation.