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Dev blog: The great ship skill change of summer 2013

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DancesWithVeldspar
#301 - 2013-02-07 20:53:52 UTC
Mai Khumm wrote:
Palovana wrote:
Mai Khumm wrote:
Question!

Quote: "If, for some odd reason, you have Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers skills, but have no Racial Frigate/Cruiser 3 at all, then the skill points will be moved in the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed."

Let's say I'm training a character for...whatever role. And I have all Racial Cruiser skills at level 1 and have Battlecruisers at level 5, do I get reimbursed for just the SP I trained, or do I get the potential SP of the 4 Racial Battlecruisers put into the free allocation pool?


You would get the existing points from the BC skill put into the pool, not 4x the existing points.

In this case it would be most productive to get all 4 racial Cruiser skills to level 3 prior to the change.

OK, just wondering. But I'd still like a DEV to confirm, otherwise I'll bog up the petition system a lil bit...


The dev blog states

Quote:

If, for some odd reason, you have Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers skills, but have no Racial Frigate/Cruiser 3 at all, then the skill points will be moved in the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed.


Not...
Quote:

If, for some odd reason, you have Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers skills, but have no Racial Frigate/Cruiser 3 at all, then 4 x the skill points will be added to the free allocation pool when the old skills are removed.
MagnusBraxx
The Northerners
Pandemic Horde
#302 - 2013-02-07 20:54:02 UTC
why is '********' censored?
Marcus Gideon
Triglavian Assembly
#303 - 2013-02-07 20:54:32 UTC
15 pages is a lot to sort through, so excuse me if this is already been addressed.

Has anyone pointed out some of the redundant Prereqs you guys are listing?

For example...

- Freighter primary skill is Adv Spc Cmd 1, but the secondary skill requires Adv Spc Cmd 5 already. So why not just say Freighter 1 is the primary (and only) tree, which will include Adv Spc Cmd 5.

- The Covetor shows Astrogeo 3 twice, both as part of the primary, and exclusively as the secondary. Again, drop one since its already covered.

- Orca shows Mining Director needs Leader 1, but Foreman also needs Leader 1. So by having trained Foreman at all, you're guaranteed to already have Leader 1.

- Rorq lists Cap Ships 2 twice as well.
Kalle Demos
Ironic Corp Name
#304 - 2013-02-07 20:55:19 UTC
Hi I am quitting EVE, it has nothing to do with these changes, im just busy with RL.

I have BC5 and ALL faction cruisers to 5 atm so that I could fly all the command ships, will I 'automatically' be reimbursed with these skills or would I need to log in, make a petition and get a GM to change?

I do eventually plan to return but would prefer not having to deal with this when I return.

TLDR: Will I need to make a petition to be reimbursed

PS. See this chars skills for more info

In other related news, I havent undocked in 2 years
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#305 - 2013-02-07 20:57:33 UTC
You get the new skills automatically if you qualify for them, yes.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Jacabon Mere
Capital Storm.
Out of the Blue.
#306 - 2013-02-07 20:58:47 UTC
Also instead of aeon, you're saying archon in the dev blog.

Capital Storm is recruiting Aussies for Lowsec pvp and money making. Join "Capital Storm Pub" channel ingame. www.capitalstorm.net
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#307 - 2013-02-07 21:00:19 UTC
Marcus Gideon wrote:
15 pages is a lot to sort through, so excuse me if this is already been addressed.

Has anyone pointed out some of the redundant Prereqs you guys are listing?

For example...

- Freighter primary skill is Adv Spc Cmd 1, but the secondary skill requires Adv Spc Cmd 5 already. So why not just say Freighter 1 is the primary (and only) tree, which will include Adv Spc Cmd 5.

Because if you did it that way, you wouldn't need ASC to fly freighters at all if you already had the freighters skill.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#308 - 2013-02-07 21:05:43 UTC
Marcus Gideon wrote:
15 pages is a lot to sort through, so excuse me if this is already been addressed.

Has anyone pointed out some of the redundant Prereqs you guys are listing?

For example...

- Freighter primary skill is Adv Spc Cmd 1, but the secondary skill requires Adv Spc Cmd 5 already. So why not just say Freighter 1 is the primary (and only) tree, which will include Adv Spc Cmd 5.

- The Covetor shows Astrogeo 3 twice, both as part of the primary, and exclusively as the secondary. Again, drop one since its already covered.

- Orca shows Mining Director needs Leader 1, but Foreman also needs Leader 1. So by having trained Foreman at all, you're guaranteed to already have Leader 1.

- Rorq lists Cap Ships 2 twice as well.


You have to learn each skill the number of times it is listed in the pre-req chain. If you haven't already learned capital ships twice, you'll have to buy another skill book and plug it in.

Wait, that would seem silly wouldn't it?

Maybe it's a comprehensive list of prereq's for each required skill, and you're reading too much into things?

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Deornoth Drake
Vandeo
#309 - 2013-02-07 21:11:25 UTC
Aineko Macx wrote:
Dedicated supercap chars should get their skillpoints for racial BS 4 and 5 reimbursed.

Same goes for dedicated freighter chars
James1122
Perimeter Trade and Distribution Inc
#310 - 2013-02-07 21:14:19 UTC
Hi,

The changes, after reading through the whole blog and the first 2/3 pages of dev posts, seem really good and well thought through.

My only question is, as I'm about to receive a bump of 6mil sp which will push me up a clone grade, is any thing going to be done about clone costs and the restriction/disincentive they impose onto active pvp ?

Please can i have a proper reply about this as i feel this is a real issue that penalizes older players.

....
Deornoth Drake
Vandeo
#311 - 2013-02-07 21:14:43 UTC
Zent wrote:
Wow will there be any reimbursement on the Iteron 5 industrial skill now only needing lvl 1 to fly it?


I support that as well!
When I trained that skill it was to be able to fly that Iteron 5.
And I'm not interested in the gallente T2 industrials and for the freighter I wouldn't require that skill any longer too besides I'm as well not interested in the gallente freighter
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#312 - 2013-02-07 21:17:58 UTC
Quote:
Cloaking 4 added as skill requirement of the Recon Ships skill

Isn't it a little counter-intuitive having to skill cloaking if you want to fly a non-cloak bonused combat recon?
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#313 - 2013-02-07 21:18:32 UTC
MisterAl tt1 wrote:
Iteron5 with skill req. at 1 ? You gotta be kidding. Maybe remove all different industrials at all, with 1 leaving for every race, in that case?


I missed that one in the changes.
If that is accurate, it is stupid beyond all words.

I have an idea...how about we scrap all pre-requisites all-together.
You want to fly a Caldari frig..no problem, learn Caldari Frig I.
You want to also fly a Gallente Titan, also no problem, just buy that skillbook and learn Gallente Titan I, no pre-requisites.

This easing of skill restrictions is ridiculous.
I know CCP wants more new players in fancy ships faster, and want to close the gap hard between high skilled and low skilled players, but these changes are a making a farce of well thought out skill plans.
James1122
Perimeter Trade and Distribution Inc
#314 - 2013-02-07 21:23:44 UTC  |  Edited by: James1122
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
MisterAl tt1 wrote:
Iteron5 with skill req. at 1 ? You gotta be kidding. Maybe remove all different industrials at all, with 1 leaving for every race, in that case?


I missed that one in the changes.
If that is accurate, it is stupid beyond all words.

I have an idea...how about we scrap all pre-requisites all-together.
You want to fly a Caldari frig..no problem, learn Caldari Frig I.
You want to also fly a Gallente Titan, also no problem, just buy that skillbook and learn Gallente Titan I, no pre-requisites.

This easing of skill restrictions is ridiculous.
I know CCP wants more new players in fancy ships faster, and want to close the gap hard between high skilled and low skilled players, but these changes are a making a farce of well thought out skill plans.


You are an idiot.......
Did you bother to read the dev blog?

Mainly this bit

Quote:
Industrials

All ship skill requirements reduced from 1-5 to 1. We want to overhaul Industrials roles as part of the Tiericide initiative and this is the first step in that direction. Watch out for more details when they are ready for player feedback.
Racial Frigate skill requirement removed from the Industrial skill


Never mind the fact that training a skill to 5 gives a significant advantage over just having at the base entry level i.e. the reason why everyone trains hacs,recons,hics,dics,logi,cs and marauders above level 1........

Edit:

I wish we could neg-rep people on evo-forums


Edit2:

Is anyone/dev able to answer my post above ?

....
Deornoth Drake
Vandeo
#315 - 2013-02-07 21:28:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Deornoth Drake
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
MisterAl tt1 wrote:
Iteron5 with skill req. at 1 ? You gotta be kidding. Maybe remove all different industrials at all, with 1 leaving for every race, in that case?


I missed that one in the changes.
If that is accurate, it is stupid beyond all words.

I have an idea...how about we scrap all pre-requisites all-together.
You want to fly a Caldari frig..no problem, learn Caldari Frig I.
You want to also fly a Gallente Titan, also no problem, just buy that skillbook and learn Gallente Titan I, no pre-requisites.

This easing of skill restrictions is ridiculous.
I know CCP wants more new players in fancy ships faster, and want to close the gap hard between high skilled and low skilled players, but these changes are a making a farce of well thought out skill plans.


Quote:
Industrials

  • All ship skill requirements reduced from 1-5 to 1. We want to overhaul Industrials roles as part of the Tiericide initiative and this is the first step in that direction. Watch out for more details when they are ready for player feedback.
  • Racial Frigate skill requirement removed from the Industrial skill

I fail to have any idea about that overhaul but given the fact that the skill requirement drops to level 1 for each ship should yield a reimbursement for those who trained a skill to lvl 5 just to be able to get into the Iteron V or any freighter.

edit: Sorry, forgot to mention, I kind of like the changes but the reimbursement program should get extended as explained above. Yes, the 5% more cargo hold is quite good but spending around 3 weeks to get from +20% to +25% is not really worth it. Before the introduction of the Orca it was worth the time but since then, it's only worth the time for those interested to get into gallente transport ships or freighter ... with the later one dropping out with the changes
Midori Amiiko
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#316 - 2013-02-07 21:31:21 UTC
I can't believe some people are all TLDR. This is some important **** here. Get an attention span.

I didn't really think that the generic ship skills were that whack. A dessie is like a cruiser-sized frigate and the BC is like a battleship-sized cruiser, so it made sense to me that there would be less of a skill burden to fly those ships.

The requirements to train Inty before Dictor were not lacking in verisimillitude either. Dictor is like a super Inty, Recon is like a super Cov-Ops...so it made sense for some experience with the lesser a requirement to fly the greater.

The reworking some of the prerequisites--I like.

Reducing the racial BS skill requirements on carriers...I like a lot. A big frustration of flying with Nul-Sec alliances is the FOTM phenominon--where the FOTM requires a month to train up, right before the flavor changes to something else leaving me permanently marginalized and forever playing catch-up. Was SO not looking forward to that on the carrier level.

To summarize: the old system, cobbled together as it was, was cobbled together pretty well. The changes reinforce consistency and simplify a very complicated aspect of the game.

Now, the question: can we expect racial drone (including fighter/fighter-bomber) skills to be rolled out in the future?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#317 - 2013-02-07 21:39:52 UTC
Overall this seems amazing and somewhat frustrating at the same time. Going to give the Evemon skill planner a workout now.
James1122
Perimeter Trade and Distribution Inc
#318 - 2013-02-07 21:41:25 UTC
Deornoth Drake wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
MisterAl tt1 wrote:
Iteron5 with skill req. at 1 ? You gotta be kidding. Maybe remove all different industrials at all, with 1 leaving for every race, in that case?


I missed that one in the changes.
If that is accurate, it is stupid beyond all words.

I have an idea...how about we scrap all pre-requisites all-together.
You want to fly a Caldari frig..no problem, learn Caldari Frig I.
You want to also fly a Gallente Titan, also no problem, just buy that skillbook and learn Gallente Titan I, no pre-requisites.

This easing of skill restrictions is ridiculous.
I know CCP wants more new players in fancy ships faster, and want to close the gap hard between high skilled and low skilled players, but these changes are a making a farce of well thought out skill plans.


Quote:
Industrials

  • All ship skill requirements reduced from 1-5 to 1. We want to overhaul Industrials roles as part of the Tiericide initiative and this is the first step in that direction. Watch out for more details when they are ready for player feedback.
  • Racial Frigate skill requirement removed from the Industrial skill

I fail to have any idea about that overhaul but given the fact that the skill requirement drops to level 1 for each ship should yield a reimbursement for those who trained a skill to lvl 5 just to be able to get into the Iteron V or any freighter.

edit: Sorry, forgot to mention, I kind of like the changes but the reimbursement program should get extended as explained above. Yes, the 5% more cargo hold is quite good but spending around 3 weeks to get from +20% to +25% is not really worth it. Before the introduction of the Orca it was worth the time but since then, it's only worth the time for those interested to get into gallente transport ships or freighter ... with the later one dropping out with the changes


Yes but its your opinion that the 3 weeks it cost to go from 20-25 isn't worth it.

The bottom line is you are at no disadvantage after this patch than what you were at before hand. Sp refunds have only ever been offered where skills have been removed or made completely redundant. The skill in question still has purpose and use, ok you may rather have spent that 3 weeks training else where, but you are no worse off after the change than when you started.

....
Kalenn Istarion
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#319 - 2013-02-07 21:44:12 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Just to clarify one valid question.


  • Even if the prerequisites change, you can still fly the ship as long as you had the main skill before the overhaul. This is not in question here.
  • However, if the prerequisites change, you cannot train the skill until the new prerequisites are met.

    • Ex:

  • You have Amarr Freighter 1 after the change but not Advanced Spaceship Command 5. You can still fly the Providence, but not train Amarr Freighter past 1 until you have Advanced Spaceship Command 5 trained.

    • We are considering changing this so you can still train the skill even after the prerequisites are changed, we'll keep you posted as soon we have an answer.


See as I understand it, your second bullet above is actually a change from current policy... so what you mean is that you're considering whether you will change the policy or not. Right?

Personally, I can see the argument for either case, but clarification would be nice :)

Try Harder.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#320 - 2013-02-07 21:49:33 UTC
Deornoth Drake wrote:

I fail to have any idea about that overhaul but given the fact that the skill requirement drops to level 1 for each ship should yield a reimbursement for those who trained a skill to lvl 5 just to be able to get into the Iteron V or any freighter.


What a bunch of crap about the Iteron and reimbursement.

I'm pretty sure that after the tiericide there will be a max cargo variant (with minor differences) for every race. And the cargo size of that max cargo variant will most likely be even MORE skill bassed than it is today.

So in order to have the equivalent of your current Iteron V after the tiericide, you will most likely STILL need that skill at V.